House of Lords (Hereditary Peers) Bill

Debate between Baroness Anderson of Stoke-on-Trent and Baroness Hoey

Committee stage
Tuesday 1st April 2025 Lords Chamber

[Baroness in Waiting/Government Whip (Baroness Anderson of Stoke-on-Trent) (Lab)]

My Lords, before I turn to the substance of the amendment, I place on record my congratulations to the noble Baroness, Lady Hoey—whose ingenuity, as ever, I admire—on finding a new way for us to debate the Windsor Framework in your Lordships’ House.

I want to reassure all noble Lords who participated in this debate, but especially the noble Baroness and the noble Lords, Lord Morrow, Lord McCrea and Lord Weir, that I am always more than happy to debate the Windsor Framework and its implementation at any time. In fact, since the general election, we have discussed it in your Lordships’ House, through the method of regret amendments, for many hours, and I have been here, as I am sure the noble Baroness will testify, for every moment of said debates. I therefore hope that noble Lords know of my personal commitment to Northern Ireland, along with that of my noble friend the Leader of the House of Lords.

I know that noble Lords were quoting from the Telegraph today, but I hope that they do not question the commitment of Government Front-Benchers to Northern Ireland and the events happening there. I would welcome a conversation outside this Chamber with the noble Baroness about how we can move forward and perhaps engage with some of the signatories to the letter.

I also want to thank the noble Baroness, Lady O’Loan, for her reassuring voice and the contribution she has made in respect of young people from across the United Kingdom, but especially from Northern Ireland; this House is as accessible to them as it is to any other British citizen. I say that as a working-class woman born in Edinburgh, educated in Bristol, with a London accent, who is proud to have “Stoke-on-Trent” in my title and to be a Member of your Lordships’ House.

On that note, I also want to thank the noble Lord, Lord Wallace of Saltaire, for his considered comments on the future of democracy. We have a Question on Thursday which I will be replying to, and which he may like to participate in. I also want to recognise the contribution of the noble Viscount, Lord Brookeborough, and to place on record my thanks to him for hosting me when I visited in February. Brookeborough House now hosts a facility to support veterans who served during the Troubles; it was a privilege to meet him and the veterans at his house.

I want to thank the noble Baroness for her amendment and all noble Lords for their contributions. The Government are clear that this House works best when diverse perspectives are represented, including from all nations and regions of the United Kingdom. Alongside the noble Baroness, Lady Hoey, we have a number of Peers from Northern Ireland who have brought so much to the House. We currently have 12 former Members of the Northern Ireland Assembly, two of whom are former Speakers there, and two former First Ministers. Such diversity deepens and enriches the House’s ability to scrutinise legislation and to hold the Government of the day to account; I think I can speak for the noble Lord, Lord Caine, too, on that issue. I, for one, very much enjoy working with noble Lords on these issues, which are so relevant to Members of your Lordships’ House: from legacy-related issues to public service transformation and the post-Brexit trading environment, which has been today’s theme.

As has been mentioned before, it is the responsibility of party leaders, including the Prime Minister, to consider who is best placed to represent their party in the House of Lords when nominating individuals to your Lordships’ House. I would hope that, as part of that consideration, Prime Ministers reflect on the national and regional representation of this place. The Government have also committed to more fundamental reform by establishing an alternative second Chamber that is more representative of the regions and nations of the United Kingdom. I hope that gives some reassurance to the noble Lord, Lord Weir. We will consult on proposals to provide an opportunity for the public to contribute their views on how to ensure that the alternative Chamber best serves them. I therefore respectfully request that the noble Baroness withdraw this amendment.

[Baroness Hoey (Non-Afl)]

My Lords, I thank the noble Baroness for responding in her usual way and showing that she actually cares about Northern Ireland. We all know she does very much, and we are very lucky to have her on the Front Bench. I also thank her for mentioning the young people and the Daily Telegraph letter. I was very disappointed that the opposition spokesperson did not even mention that and that he was more interested in the history of Irish Peers. I thank the noble Baroness for that; perhaps it might be helpful if we arrange a meeting for those young people next time she is in Northern Ireland. That would be very helpful.

I will pick up just one point to make this clear. The noble Baroness, Lady O’Loan, and others mentioned the idea that somehow any young person in Northern Ireland could be elected, just like any other normal person. That is not the point; the point is that they cannot be elected to anywhere that makes the laws for their own country. I really do not understand why noble Peers do not understand this: no one in this House can make laws for part of Northern Ireland in those 300 areas of the law.

I will give your Lordships two quick examples: the two “p”s—pets and parcels. Not a single person in Northern Ireland had a say here about what was going to happen with parcels being sent from people in this country to Northern Ireland, which is part of the United Kingdom. No one had a say on pet passports. They had nothing to do with democracy in this place, in the House of Commons or in Stormont. It is a nonsense to say that people are being treated in the same way.

I thank the noble Baroness the Minister for talking about my ingenuity. Lots of other people are involved in this. I will give way.

Clonoe Inquest

Debate between Baroness Anderson of Stoke-on-Trent and Baroness Hoey

Wednesday 12th February 2025 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Anderson of Stoke-on-Trent (Lab)]

My Lords, I thank the noble Baroness for her question. I stand in awe of everything that the many people in this Chamber who have been affected by terrorism, like her, continue to do to build peace.

On our Armed Forces operating within the rule of law, I am very proud of how they operate. That is not to say that there are not occasions, and the specific findings of this coroner have raised concerns on both sides of the community. The MoD is considering what they mean.

[Baroness Hoey (Non-Afl)]

My Lords, does the noble Baroness share my astonishment that Mr Justice Humphreys, the coroner, said:

“The soldiers did not have an honest and genuinely held belief that the use of force was necessary to defend themselves or others”?


Surely, guessing what the soldiers were thinking goes way beyond a coroner’s role and powers. Will the Government stand full-square behind our brave soldiers and condemn the rewriting of history by not just republicans but some in the justice system?

[Baroness Anderson of Stoke-on-Trent (Lab)]

My Lords, I have spoken about the specific findings. I assure the noble Baroness that the MoD is carefully considering them, and we are providing welfare and legal support.

Independent Commission for Reconciliation and Information Recovery

Debate between Baroness Anderson of Stoke-on-Trent and Baroness Hoey

Thursday 16th January 2025 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Anderson of Stoke-on-Trent (Lab)]

My Lords, I have already touched on that last point and how we will deal with it. On next steps and protecting veterans, both the pain of those victims and the fear and concern of our military community need to be established. I put on record and declare my interest as an honorary officer of the Royal Navy and part of the defence family. It is clear that we need to act to protect veterans. Any veteran who needs to go through legal proceedings will receive welfare and, where appropriate, legal support. I am pleased that, last month, the Secretary of State announced the appointment of David Johnstone as the new Northern Ireland Veterans Commissioner. This will ensure that veterans’ voices across Northern Ireland will continue to have a strong advocate to support them.

[Baroness Hoey (Non-Afl)]

My Lords, the Government have decided to hold a public inquiry into the Pat Finucane case, rather than pass it to ICRIR, which the Secretary of State said was exceptional. A judge has now ordered a public inquiry into the death of Sean Brown, which, I am glad to say, is being appealed. Will the Government commit to a policy of there being no more public inquiries into legacy issues and legislate to this effect?

[Baroness Anderson of Stoke-on-Trent (Lab)]

My Lords, the UK Government have enormous sympathy for those killed, injured or bereaved as a result of the Troubles. I may be putting words into the noble Baroness’s mouth, but I assure your Lordships’ House that there is no hierarchy of pain or injustice. The Pat Finucane inquiry was agreed in the Weston Park agreement in 2001 and again in 2004 as part of a series of public inquiries. There is a public inquiry into Patrick Finucane because of the unique circumstances there. Noble Lords will appreciate that court proceedings on Sean Brown are happening today, so I cannot comment on that, but the Secretary of State has made clear his confidence in ICRIR as a vehicle for inquiries. That is why we are doing everything we can to secure confidence and make sure that it is the appropriate vehicle.

Northern Ireland

Debate between Baroness Anderson of Stoke-on-Trent and Baroness Hoey

Wednesday 27th November 2024 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Anderson of Stoke-on-Trent (Lab)]

I thank the noble Baroness for the work she has done in this area and for meeting me to discuss next steps. The Northern Ireland Office is working every day on this issue to make sure that there is genuine consultation for what will happen next. I look forward to updating the House and working with noble Lords across the House as we move forward to repeal and replace previous legislation and to make sure that, as we explore the legacy of the Troubles, we deliver for the people who were affected.

[Baroness Hoey (Non-Afl)]

My Lords, the noble Baroness will know that no one in Northern Ireland had the opportunity to vote for the Labour Party—the governing party—because the Labour Party has decided that you cannot vote Labour. You can join the party, because the GMB took legal action. Can she tell me why the governing party has a sister party, the SDLP, which wants a united Ireland? How does that strengthen the union?

[Baroness Anderson of Stoke-on-Trent (Lab)]

I am not sure that is a matter for the Government; rather, it is one for the Labour Party. I am more than happy to have a discussion with the noble Baroness outside the House.

Northern Ireland City Deals

Debate between Baroness Anderson of Stoke-on-Trent and Baroness Hoey

Thursday 10th October 2024 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Anderson of Stoke-on-Trent (Lab)]

I reassure your Lordships’ House that the Belfast region deal signed in December 2021 was never subject to any pause. I am delighted that the Secretary of State attended the signing of the Derry/Londonderry and Strabane deal on 18 September 2024. On next steps I say that, even as I sat next to my noble friend Lord Livermore, I was making a case for the two city deals and I will continue to do so. I promise noble Lords that the Secretary of State, who has met the Chief Secretary to the Treasury in recent days, is making every possible persuasive argument about why these deals should go forward. However, as I said, we will await the decisions in the Budget.

[Baroness Hoey (Non-Afl)]

My Lords, the noble Baroness has quite understandably mentioned the fiscal situation. Is she aware—I am sure she is—that nearly half a billion pounds has already been spent by His Majesty’s Government on the trader support scheme? In addition, £190 million has been spent building border customs posts at Larne and other places. What will His Majesty’s Government do about this ridiculous Windsor Framework, which is separating out Northern Ireland from the rest of the United Kingdom? There is a real solution of mutual agreement, which could make the difference and save money that could then go into the city deals.

[Baroness Anderson of Stoke-on-Trent (Lab)]

The noble Baroness will be very aware that, since this Government came to office in July, we have tried to reset relationships with the European Union to ensure smoother relations. The Windsor Framework is an important step in delivering trade and securing prosperity for the people of Northern Ireland. We are doing everything we can to make sure that relations between GB and Northern Ireland work effectively.

Patrick Finucane Murder

Debate between Baroness Anderson of Stoke-on-Trent and Baroness Hoey

Thursday 12th September 2024 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Anderson of Stoke-on-Trent (Lab)]

I thank the noble Lord, Lord Rogan, for his questions and note his pain and disappointment. I am grateful for his comments about the Finucane family and for recognising the steps we need to take. On the specifics of his question, I can only say to all families of the Troubles that my heart goes out to them, and that this Government will do everything in our power to ensure that they have access to justice and to the information they need to ensure a level of personal peace and closure. We will review every case as and when it comes in front of the Secretary of State. If the noble Lord would like to discuss anything specific with me, I look forward to meeting with him. On the issues about all of Ireland, members of the NIO meet the Government of Ireland regularly to discuss this and all matters, and we will continue to do so to further the cause of peace.

[Baroness Hoey (Non-Afl)]

In welcoming the Minister to her job, I tell her that she is going to be very busy, particularly now that we have lost the Windsor Framework Sub-Committee, which I hope can be brought back. The Minister must understand that this will be seen by many people as a kind of hierarchy of victims. Many victims, particularly in rural areas, saw their families destroyed by IRA terrorism, and there has been nothing—no inquiries, no money, nothing spent—to get to the truth of that. We must make sure that everyone feels that they are being treated equally. We must make sure that the money spent on this is spent in a way that ensures that we get to the truth. I think we have already got to the truth. I see no unique circumstances, and I wonder whether, as was asked earlier by another noble Lord, she can say what the unique circumstances are, after all the other inquiries and all the money that has been spent. Of course, I think we all know what the unique circumstances are that the Government are referring to, but that will not satisfy people in Northern Ireland. Given that we all have confidence in Sir Declan Morgan, and that the Secretary of State made that clear in his Statement, I do not understand why this could not have been sent, as it should have been, to the ICRIR. This is sending out a message that the Government do not believe that Sir Declan Morgan could handle the case, and that is very sad indeed.

[Baroness Anderson of Stoke-on-Trent (Lab)]

My Lords, I want to make it clear and put on the record that there is no hierarchy of pain or justice. Everybody touched by the Troubles deserves answers; it is why and how we engage in legacy that is so important. Yesterday’s decision by the Secretary of State is the fulfilment of our commitment made at Weston Park 23 years ago—many years before the establishment of the commission and the appointment of Sir Declan Morgan. However, I am delighted that Sir Declan Morgan has the confidence of the noble Baroness, and I look forward to working with her in the months and perhaps years ahead, depending on how long my appointment lasts, as we discuss these issues in great depth.