Pension Schemes Bill

Debate between Baroness Altmann and Baroness Noakes

Committee stage
Monday 26th January 2026 Grand Committee

[Baroness Noakes (Con)]

My Lords, I will speak to my Amendments 91 and 95. I thank my noble friend Lady Neville-Rolfe for adding her name to them. Having had a little detour into asset mandation in the last group, we now return to scale. My Amendments 91 and 95 relate to master trusts and group personal pension plans, respectively, returning to the theme of size not being everything. They are intended to exempt from the scale requirements those schemes that deliver investment performance which exceeds that achieved by the average of all master trusts or all group personal pension plans.

We debated the general theme of size not being everything on the last day of Committee. I firmly believe that we should not let an obsession with size squeeze good performers out of the market. The Minister’s arguments on that day, despite protestations to the contrary, show that the Government have an obsession with size that overrides their professed desire for better outcomes for savers. If they really care about outcomes for savers, they should not be fixated on structural issues such as the size of assets under management, because good investment returns are not the exclusive preserve of schemes that reach the magic £25 billion of assets. The evidence for the Government’s policy cited by the Minister last week merely indicates that there is a correlation between size and returns achieved. That evidence, however, categorically does not demonstrate that good returns are obtained only by those which pass a size threshold.

At the heart of this debate is the problem that the Government are trying to use this Bill to force pension schemes to divert investment resources into things that the Government think will improve the UK economy, while at the same time claiming the objective of good outcomes for savers. I remind the Minister of Tinbergen’s rule: if policymakers wish to have multiple policy targets, they must have an equal number of policy instruments under their control. One instrument—mandating the size of pension provider—will not achieve the separate targets of improving savers’ outcomes and increasing UK productive investment without risking policy effectiveness and reduced transparency and accountability. By ignoring Tinbergen’s rule, the Government are actively inviting policy failure in this area.

I also strongly support Amendment 98 in the names of my noble friends Lord Younger and Lady Stedman-Scott. Innovation will not thrive in the pension sector if it has to pass arbitrary size tests. We should do everything that we can in this Bill to promote innovation. I beg to move.

[Baroness Altmann (Non-Afl)]

My Lords, I, too, have a number of amendments in this group and I will address my remarks mainly to them. Amendments 99 and 106 recommend removing the specific figure of £25 billion from the Bill and replacing it with a figure to be determined by the Government nearer the time, I hope, after detailed consultation.

On the last day in Committee, when we debated Amendment 88 on small pots, in the name of the noble Baroness, Lady Noakes, which proposed a monetary limit of £10,000, the Minister rejected the amendment on the grounds that

“the Government are not persuaded that it is sensible to hardwire the cap in primary legislation”.—[Official Report, 22/1/26; col. GC 188.]

Quite right. The same applies here: my amendment follows exactly that principle. I am concerned about the risks involved in tying primary legislation to a fixed monetary sum.

First, a change in market conditions could render it inappropriate. Secondly, such a large sum risks stymieing the development of newer companies and gives an exceptional competitive advantage to those providers already of the required scale. There is no evidence—I have been searching—to suggest that big is always best and there is certainly no academic proof that £25 billion, £10 billion or any other number is the right dividing line between successful funds and failing funds.

Newer entrants with an interesting approach to member service, digital engagement or innovative investment may well take time to break into the market, but just because they have not reached what the Bill determines is the magic number should not mean that they are forced to close, which is what the Bill would do, in effect.

The Minister said that consolidation and scale will mean

“better outcomes for members … lower investment fees, increased returns and access to diversified investments, as well as better governance and expertise in running schemes”.—[Official Report, 22/1/26; col. GC 202.]

That may well be the case for many, but deliberately disadvantaging innovation and putting up barriers that damage recent or newer entrants, regardless of their merits, runs counter to those intended outcomes over the longer term. Using collective vehicles, for example, run by already established experts such as closed-ended investment companies, can replace the need for in-house expertise at each of the big pension funds. Indeed, that option is already available but is being discouraged by the Bill.

As the noble Baroness, Lady Noakes, said, a correlation is not the same as a causative impact. Putting £25 billion into the Bill creates a big issue with some of the newer companies that will fall into the vacuum between the new entrant pathway, which does not start until a scheme is established after 2030, and the transitional pathway, which requires this fixed £10 billion—I could have tabled amendments on that, but £25 billion is the same principle—if they have not reached that level.

What is worse—I tried to indicate this last week—is that, although I know that the Government want to inject certainty by including these numerical figures, unfortunately they are also blocking the progress and potentially forcing the closure of a number of schemes that have digital-first methodologies right now but have not been established long enough to reach the required scale and to which the market to raise growth capital is currently shut. Who would lend money to a newer company that may or may not reach the scale required by the particular date?

The Government need to think again about the merits of using a fixed number, as the Minister mentioned last week. I would be happy to meet officials or Ministers to go through the rationale that has had this damaging effect in the market. I hope that we will not give a hostage to fortune by specifying a particular number in the Bill that may or may not prove to be right, wrong or damaging. I hope that the Minister will help the Committee to understand whether the Government might consider this principle.

--- Later in debate ---

[Baroness Noakes (Con)]

My Lords, I am grateful to the noble Baroness, Lady Bowles of Berkhamsted, for her forensic analysis of both the Mansion House Accord and the ways in which there is a significant mismatch between what is in that accord and what is in this Bill. I confess that I was not aware of the extent of that, so that analysis is really important; I look forward to hearing what the Minister has to say.

I would like to comment on whether investments in listed securities should be excluded; here, I will part company with many of my colleagues on this side of the Committee. I understand why they are excluded. It is because buying and selling shares in listed companies is just buying and selling a financial asset. The buying and selling of shares in UK-listed assets does nothing to put money into the UK economy.

However, the way in which this measure is drafted probably goes too far, because it is possible that companies could raise new capital—for the purpose of investing in some of the things where the Government wish to encourage new investors—and that those vehicles could be listed. The way in which the Government have approached this is possibly too extensive, but I certainly do not think that the simple buying and selling of financial assets aligns with getting productive investment into the economy. As the noble Baroness, Lady Altmann, knows, I do not think that is a valid objective for this Bill—certainly not one that should override the need to get good returns for savers.

[Baroness Altmann (Non-Afl)]

I apologise, but I think that the noble Baroness’s characterisation of the impact of buying and selling, as she said, on listed companies—whether that puts money into the economy, to use her words—does not necessarily apply in the way she believes, particularly with closed-ended investment companies.

One of the problems with which they have had to deal, because of the regulatory constraints that we have been trying to help the Government address over the past two or three years, is that if people are selling these closed-ended investment companies but no one is buying them, they sink to a discount to their net asset value. At that point, they cannot invest in new opportunities; they cannot IPO or raise new capital. That has had a dramatic impact on the economy because these closed-ended companies, which were investing significantly in infrastructure across the country, have been unable to raise new money to invest in new opportunities.

Pension Schemes Bill

Debate between Baroness Altmann and Baroness Noakes

Committee stage
Thursday 22nd January 2026 Grand Committee

[Baroness Noakes (Con)]

My Lords, Amendments 134, 137 and 138 in this group are in my name. I thank my noble friend Lady Neville-Rolfe for adding her name to Amendment 137; unfortunately, she needs to be in the Chamber imminently so was unable to stay in the Committee.

I support the other amendments in this group. I am very sorry that the noble Lord, Lord Davies of Brixton, is not in his place; I hope he has not been silenced by his Front Bench. On our first day in Committee, I found myself in near agreement with the noble Lord—that is quite unusual for me—when he said that he was not totally convinced by the Government’s line that big is necessarily beautiful. He said that he was open to that debate, but my position is less nuanced: I am absolutely certain that big is not always beautiful. There are plenty of examples of big being beautiful. The US tech industry is probably a good example of that, at least from a shareholder perspective. On the other hand, there are many examples of where being big is not good. Big can be bureaucratic and low-performing. It can be hampered by groupthink, unresponsive to customer needs and hostile to innovation and competition; we can all name organisations in that category, I am sure.

I buy, as a general proposition, that an investment management scale has many attractions, including efficiency of overhead costs and the ability to diversify into a wider range of asset classes in order to achieve superior investment returns, but I have absolutely no idea whether £25 billion is the right threshold for forcing people into certain kinds of investment. I am absolutely certain that we should not dogmatically force all organisations towards that asset threshold in order to leave the door wide open for new entrants and players who can demonstrate good returns for savers and innovation.

My Amendment 137 would widen the qualification for the new entrant pathway relief so that it can include schemes that will produce above-average performance. If smaller, more agile providers can provide equal or better returns than the big boys, why should they be excluded? If a provider has a winning formula, why must it also demonstrate that it will achieve scale? What benefit is there for pension savers in restricting the market in this way? Noble Lords should also ask themselves why the big providers in the market, in their emails to us, have generally not challenged the scale proposals. The answer is very simple: this Bill acts as a barrier to entry, and large players love barriers to entry. We must not let them get away with it.

Amendment 134 probes why subsection (2)(a) of new Section 28F, which is to be inserted into the Pensions Act 2008 by Clause 40, restricts new entrant pathway relief for schemes that do not have any members. The main scale requirement is to have assets of £25 billion under management by 2030. The transitional pathway is for existing smaller players, provided they have assets of £10 billion under management by 2030 and have a credible plan for meeting £25 billion by 2035. The new entrant pathway relief is available only to completely new schemes—that is, those with new members—and only if they have strong potential to reach £25 billion. This leaves a gap in which new players that have been set up very recently, or will emerge between now and when this bit of the Bill comes into force, will not qualify for new entrant pathway relief and may also not qualify for transitional pathway relief. They may well have strong potential to pass the new entrant test—that is, if they were allowed to because they had no members—but they would not satisfy the regulator that they have a credible plan for transitional pathway eligibility.

Growing a business is not a linear matter. At various points, additional capital will generally be needed, but the Bill will make it difficult to raise funds because of the significant uncertainty about whether a pension provider would satisfy the transitional pathway test; and failing that test would mean that the business could not carry on and would thus be very risky for investors or lenders. Do the Government really intend to drive out of the market new providers that have only recently started or will start between now and the operation of the scale provisions? I am completely mystified by this.

My Amendment 134 deals with the substance of Amendment 136 in the name of the noble Baroness, Lady Altmann, which she has degrouped into a separate group and which will not come up until later. I think they deal with the same issue, but I will wait to see what she has to say on her amendment in due course.

Finally, my Amendment 138 seeks to delete subsection (4) of new Section 28F in order to probe why the Government need a regulation-making power to define “strong potential to grow” and “innovative product design”. The Government are probably the last place I would go to find out about growth or innovation. The regulators that will implement the new entrant pathway are, or ought to be, closer to their markets and therefore will understand in practice how to interpret the terms for the providers they regulate. Why can the Government not simply leave it to them? What value can the Government possibly add to understanding how these terms should be implemented in practice? I look forward to the Minister trying to convince me that the Government know about growth and innovation.

[Baroness Altmann (Non-Afl)]

My Lords, as the noble Baroness, Lady Noakes, said, my Amendment 136 is in a later group and was degrouped deliberately to explore the issues that she has just raised. If the Committee is comfortable for me to deal with Amendment 136 here today, I do not mind doing so, but that would potentially cause a problem for the Ministers or other Members of the Committee. May I do so? Alternatively, I could speak to it later; whatever the Committee decides is fine with me.

--- Later in debate ---

[Baroness Altmann (Non-Afl)]

My Lords, I support all the amendments in this group. I echo the words of noble colleagues in the Committee about the dangers of the Government mandating any particular asset allocation, especially the concerns about mandating what is the highest risk and the highest cost end of the equity spectrum at a time when we are aware that pension schemes have probably been too risk-averse and are trying to row back from that.

What is interesting, in the context of the remarks made by the noble Lord, Lord Vaux, is that I was instrumental in setting up the Myners review in 1999, which reported in 2001, under the then Labour Administration. As Chancellor, Gordon Brown’s particular concern was about why pension funds do not invest much in private equity or venture capital. That was the remit of the review. The conclusions it reached were that we needed to remove the investment barriers, to change legislation, to encourage more asset diversification, to have more transparency and to address the short-term thinking driven by actuarial standards—at the time, it was the minimum funding requirement, which was far weaker than the regime established under the Pensions Regulator in 2004.

So this is not a new issue, but there was no consideration at that time of forcing pension schemes to invest in just this one asset class. The barriers still exist. In an environment where pension schemes have been encouraged, for many years, to think that the right way forward is to invest by reducing or controlling risk and to look for low cost, it is clear that the private equity situation would not fit with those categories. Therefore, I urge the Government to think again about mandating this one area of the investment market, when there are so many other areas that a diversified portfolio could benefit from, leaving the field open for the trustees to decide which area is best for their scheme.

I am particularly concerned that, as has been said in relation to previous groups, private equity and venture capital have had a really good run. We may be driving pension schemes to buy this particular asset class at a time when we know that private equity funds are trying to set up continuation vehicles—or continuation of continuation vehicles—because they cannot sell the underlying investments at reasonable or profitable prices and are desperately looking for pools of assets to support those investments, made some time ago, which would not necessarily be of benefit to members in the long run.

[Baroness Noakes (Con)]

My Lords, I support all the amendments in this group. When I came to draft my own amendments, I discovered that this area of mandation was a rather crowded marketplace, so I decided not to enter it. I will not speak at length on the subject, but I endorse everything that has been said so far and wish to commit my almost undying belief that mandation must not remain in the Bill.

Business of the House

Debate between Baroness Altmann and Baroness Noakes

Wednesday 4th September 2019 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Noakes]

I thank my noble friend for that. I say to the noble Lord that this amendment is about the Motion before us and about describing the Motion correctly. It is not debating the Bill. I look forward to debating the Bill as and when it arrives in this House if we have time, but this is about correctly describing the Motion and being honest about what it is really about.

One of the very worst bits about the Bill that this is designed to enable, as the noble Baroness the Leader of the Opposition has made clear, is that it would hand the timing of our exit entirely to the EU. I agree that we are not debating the Bill today.

[Baroness Altmann (Con)]

I am most grateful to my noble friend for giving way. It really seems that this is an attempt to make us unable to carry out our duty, which is to scrutinise and, if necessary, revise or pass legislation passed in the other place and that it wishes us to carry through. Is my noble friend saying that she does not wish this legislation to be taken by this House, because obviously we are facing the Prorogation timetable? If my noble friend wishes the Bill to come to us and be debated, this Motion offers the opportunity for that to happen.

[Baroness Noakes]

I am well aware of where my noble friend is coming from. I just say that we have no objection to the Bill coming here, as we never have to Bills that come from the other place, provided that they come in the ordinary course. We are objecting to the Motion in the name of the noble Baroness, Lady Smith of Basildon.

--- Later in debate ---

[Baroness Noakes]

My Lords, we have never actually said that we should not debate the Bill. We have said that we are very happy to debate the Bill in the ordinary way. Our objection, and all the amendments to which the noble Lord referred, are about the business Motion before us, because of its seriously deleterious nature compared with the way in which this House does its normal business. The Motion is designed only to accomplish that Bill.

[Baroness Altmann]

I thank my noble friend for giving way, but the Leader of the Opposition, who moved the Motion, has already said that if the Government are willing to take the Bill in the normal way, she will abandon her Motion. This seems to me to be some kind of government filibuster to prevent us debating the Bill.

[Baroness Noakes]

My Lords, I am not part of the Government; like my noble friend, I am a mere Back-Bencher. This is not a government Motion at all. Unless and until there is an agreement between the Front Benches, the existing rules will apply. The noble Baroness, Lady Smith, is trying to overrule the normal rules with her Motion, which is why we oppose it. We do not oppose the Bill; we oppose the Motion and, therefore, the way in which the procedures of our House are being subverted—not just in this instance, although we know that the motive for moving such a Motion is to achieve this particular Bill, but because it could do this House long-term harm. That is what I care about and what I know many of my colleagues care about.