Further Discussions with the European Union under Article 50 of the Treaty on European Union

Debate between Baroness Altmann and Baroness Hayter of Kentish Town

Wednesday 27th February 2019 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Hayter of Kentish Town]

We do. I made it clear yesterday—I am not sure whether the noble Baroness was in her place when I spoke to the House—that no deal is our choice because if we amend the deal on the table, we can get one. It is our choice, not that of the other side.

The costs of no deal, as I said, have been set out. The worries of the CBI, the IoD and of all the others have been made pretty clear to the Government—I am sure they have been if they are making them clear to me—and I wonder sometimes whether Ministers read their own papers. Yesterday, the Government’s own paper predicted that the economy would be between 6% and 9% smaller in the long term in a no-deal scenario compared with today’s arrangements, with the north-east losing out more than anywhere else—I am sure the Minister noticed. I thought that that, at least, would have attracted his attention.

[Baroness Altmann (Con)]

Would the noble Baroness ask the Minister to agree that yesterday’s paper which predicted the 6% to 9% reduction in the economy in the event of no deal noted that that excluded any short-term disruption costs from no deal?

[Baroness Hayter of Kentish Town]

It is a shame that he will not be replying but I am sure that his colleague—judging from that lovely poker face of his—has made a careful note of that and will respond later today.

We know that one bit, at least, of the Government is listening because we know they are preparing to set up a hardship fund—presumably with the money that the noble Lord, Lord Lilley, thinks will be available to pay for all those who will lose out; this seems a funny way of running the economy. Despite all that and the pressures for the hardship fund, the no dealers today have been attacking the grown-ups in their own party as “saboteurs, wreckers and blackmailers”. This, coming from politicians who have blackmailed the Prime Minister by voting against her and who are willing to wreck the economy and sabotage business, all for their own ideological hang-up. This has to stop and it has to stop now.

Will the Minister who will sum up, and who is definitely not an ERG hardliner, push his political masters—or, perhaps, his political mistress—to rule out unequivocally any no-deal departure, with its lack of a transition period and the chaos that goes with that? Will he urge the Prime Minister to change her approach and to find a consensual way forward to unite the Commons and the country, and will he ensure that an extension to Article 50 is requested this week? It is clear we will need it, but requesting it this week, rather than being forced into it, will help to calm nerves and offer some certainty to business. Will he work to see that such an extension is used not for more pretence and tweaking of words, but for a serious reconsideration of how we withdraw from the EU?

European Union (Withdrawal) Bill

Debate between Baroness Altmann and Baroness Hayter of Kentish Town

Report: 6th sitting (Hansard): House of Lords
Tuesday 8th May 2018 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Altmann (Con)]

My Lords, I support this important amendment. The EEA offers a way out of the impasse our negotiations are in. I am therefore disappointed that many in this House seem opposed to the amendment. I urge my noble friends to recognise that there are many Conservative and Labour MPs who wish us to pass this amendment tonight and send it back to the other place for reconsideration. My noble friend Lord Forsyth mentioned this, and I urge him to recognise that there is a strong and growing feeling in the other place that it would like to reconsider the EEA. Seeing the problems facing the country, and seeing businesses large and small increasingly explaining how vital it is not only to have a customs union—or partnership, or whatever we wish to call it; perhaps fish and chips, as my noble friend Lord Patten suggested —MPs increasingly realise that it is not enough to protect British manufacturing and the vital services sector.

It is crucial to keep EEA membership as an option and I ask for your Lordships’ indulgence to explain why the EEA is consistent with the referendum vote and how the analysis of the noble Lord, Lord Howarth, omits important elements. Being in the EEA would ensure that we are protected in a no-deal scenario, which could otherwise be catastrophic for the UK economy and would necessitate a hard border in Ireland. EEA membership has an emergency brake on free movement of workers so that we could limit the numbers coming into the UK if needed. Articles 112 and 113 state that if there is serious economic, societal or environmental difficulties immigration can be curtailed.

Being a member of the EEA means that regulations can stay aligned with the EU, so our exports of goods and services will not face new barriers. There is no more risk of ever-closer union as the EEA is strictly an economic union. EEA disputes are settled by the EFTA court using the English language, not the ECJ. EEA membership does not include the common agricultural and fisheries policies, as we have heard, but it also does not cover many other areas which the British people may be concerned about as EU members, such as VAT, justice and home affairs or commercial policy. Decisions require unanimity, not qualified majority voting, so there is not the same risk to our sovereignty. There are already negotiations and free trade agreements with 27 countries and negotiations are under way with India, Indonesia and Vietnam. The EU agencies that we already voted for earlier this evening are open to EEA members in most cases. Surely the value of protecting the Northern Ireland border and continuing close trading relationships with the EU in both goods and services far outweighs the possible benefits of imaginary trade deals with third countries. The Government’s analysis shows that, even if we get a free trade agreement with the US, India, Australia and others, it would boost GDP by only 0.7%.

Unlike EU law, EEA law does not have direct effect, but has to be incorporated into national legislation in accordance with each state’s constitutional requirements. EU legislation is not imposed on non-EU EEA states. The final decision on whether rules will be implemented is made by the EEA Joint Committee, which compromises of EU and non-EU EEA states, so decisions are taken on the basis of unanimity. That means that, in extremis, a non-EU EEA state could veto proposed rules, as Norway has done in the past. I urge noble Lords to vote for the amendment as a protection for the UK, its people and its democracy. Being in the EEA respects the referendum result. We would not be in the EU but we would minimise damage to our wonderful country and its citizens.

[Baroness Hayter of Kentish Town]

My Lords, this has been an informative, interesting and passionate debate on a key element of our future relationship with the EU. Unlike the noble Lord, Lord Forsyth, I think that it is entirely appropriate for us to discuss this here and in the context of the Bill.

It has long been the judgment of the Official Opposition that the Prime Minister made a grave mistake at the very opening of negotiations in sweeping certain options completely off the table. Her red lines, which closed down the possible positive and constructive development of a new partnership with the EU, were irresponsible, short-sighted and aimed more at her hard Brexiteers than at the interests of every part of the UK. Whether one is thinking about Ireland, Scotland, the regions, Welsh farming, manufacturing, the City, aerospace, automobiles or any other sector of the economy, those options were off the table before we had even had the impact statements.

It is not the way that we would have opened discussions on our post-Brexit status. Nor would we have written our own red lines. Instead, Labour set out the objectives for, rather than the particular architecture of, any new relationship. One of the problems with the specifics of these amendments is that they define the structure, not what we want to achieve. Indeed, on the objective, I agree wholeheartedly with my noble friend Lord Alli. We urgently need a deal on services if the UK economy is ever to thrive—but the particular model defined may have some shortcomings, some of which the House heard about in the debate on the amendment of the noble Baroness, Lady McIntosh, and which the noble Lord, Lord Kerr, touched on. Not only might EFTA, with its 14 million people to our 66 million, not want us and not suit us, but, because EFTA is not in the customs union, it cuts across the major amendment passed with a majority of 123 in this House on 18 April that was in favour of us being in a customs union. It also does not mention agriculture, which is so important in Ireland. At the moment, we cannot have both a customs union and EFTA.

European Union (Withdrawal) Bill

Debate between Baroness Altmann and Baroness Hayter of Kentish Town

Monday 19th March 2018 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Altmann (Con)]

My Lords—

[Baroness Hayter of Kentish Town]

My Lords, I think the House wants the Minister to reply, so I was thinking that we are probably ready to end this debate.

I have just heard the first case against referendums, which is that a referendum made my country of Wales dry—and that argument was in support of them. It was certainly dry on a Sunday when I was growing up; and this is the ex-director of Alcohol Concern confessing this.

We have considerable sympathy with one part of these amendments: that the Government cannot be allowed to mark their own homework regarding the outcome of the withdrawal negotiations, be that on Gibraltar, which is mentioned in one of them, our future relations with the EU or the withdrawal deal itself. We discussed last week, as a number of noble Lords have said, the need for a meaningful vote by Parliament on the deal and indeed on what should happen if the deal fails to win approval by the British Parliament. We also considered then the desire of some for a future referendum on the terms of the deal.

As the Committee knows, and as the noble Lords, Lord Wigley and Lord Newby, have said, we see it as essential that there is a proper, meaningful vote on the terms of our withdrawal. We trust that the amendment we will table on Report will find favour in this House and later, we hope, at the other end. As to what should happen if that deal is rejected, surely that must be decided at the time, in the full knowledge of the situation, by the House of Commons. It could be, as in a later amendment in the name of my noble friend Lord Campbell-Savours, by extending the Article 50 period. It might be by revoking the Article 50 notification. It could indeed be by a referendum, though perhaps the wording would be a matter for then, rather than by amendment today. But the first judgment on the terms must surely be for this sovereign Parliament and, if it says no, it must then be Parliament that takes responsibility for what should be the next step. That means nothing is ruled out, which therefore means nothing is set in stone at this moment.

[The Minister of State, Department for Exiting the European Union (Lord Callanan) (Con)]

My Lords, this has again been an excellent debate and let me say at the outset that I note that support for the amendments comes from noble Lords on all sides of the House. I am not trying to imply that this is a partisan issue, but it is one of principle. I hope that the noble Lord, Lord Butler, the noble Baroness, Lady Wheatcroft, and the noble Lords, Lord Newby, Lord Wigley and Lord Foulkes, who have tabled Amendments 226, 227BH and 357, will believe me when I say that I respect their positions. But this debate has been held many times before, and I therefore hope that noble Lords will forgive me if my argument sounds familiar. The referendum question, agreed by Parliament and presented to the people, was whether we wished to leave or remain in the European Union. Parliament attached no conditions or caveats to that vote.

It was clear in the campaign that a leave vote could lead to a range of outcomes and that not all of us advocating leave agreed about the way to do so. People knew this at the time, it was extensively debated and, in the biggest democratic mandate for a course of action ever directed at any UK Government, voters instructed the Government to leave the European Union.