European Affairs Committee
Tuesday 15th September 2026
Skip to latest contribution
This debate has concluded
(began 2 weeks ago)
Watch LiveSkip to latest contribution
This debate has concluded
11:04
Lord Stirrup
-
-
Lord Stirrup
Good morning and welcome to this evidence session of the Select Committee in the House of Lords on European Affairs into the UK, EU Gibraltar Agreement, which has come before us under the Constitutional Reform and Governance Act, for consideration. This is a public session. We will be taking evidence and there will be a transcript which will be available to for witnesses to correct for any errors that they might notice. And of course, the the whole session will be in public.
I'm delighted to welcome as our witness this morning, Lord Wood of Anfield, who's parliamentary Under Secretary of State at the foreign, Commonwealth and Development Office, and with him, Paul Hughes, who's the deputy head of the Southern Europe Department at the foreign, Commonwealth and Development Office and was of course, previously joint deputy head of the Fcdo's Gibraltar Negotiations Taskforce. We're hoping to conclude this in 60 minutes so we can keep the questions and the answers crisp. That will be very helpful.
And to get us going, if I may, I'd like to just ask a general question which didn't take too long to answer, but just to sort of set the context for the evidence, which is, you know, why wasn't Gibraltar included in the Trade and cooperation agreement in 2020 in the first place? We had bridging measures instead. How successful the bridging measures, why did we need something other than those? And since negotiations began in 2021, they seem to have taken an extraordinarily long time.
Perhaps you could just set out why it's taken five years to reach this agreement.
I'm delighted to welcome as our witness this morning, Lord Wood of Anfield, who's parliamentary Under Secretary of State at the foreign, Commonwealth and Development Office, and with him, Paul Hughes, who's the deputy head of the Southern Europe Department at the foreign, Commonwealth and Development Office and was of course, previously joint deputy head of the Fcdo's Gibraltar Negotiations Taskforce. We're hoping to conclude this in 60 minutes so we can keep the questions and the answers crisp. That will be very helpful.
And to get us going, if I may, I'd like to just ask a general question which didn't take too long to answer, but just to sort of set the context for the evidence, which is, you know, why wasn't Gibraltar included in the Trade and cooperation agreement in 2020 in the first place? We had bridging measures instead. How successful the bridging measures, why did we need something other than those? And since negotiations began in 2021, they seem to have taken an extraordinarily long time.
Perhaps you could just set out why it's taken five years to reach this agreement.
11:05
Speaker 1
-
Speaker 1
Well, thank you, Lord chairman. It's a real pleasure to be here with amongst so many colleagues in the Lords. Let me just start with with one minute on on the purpose of this bespoke treaty, which is what it is. As you know, Gibraltar was not included in the TCA. And I'll come back to why that might have been in a minute, which was negotiated , obviously, by a previous UK government, and that meant that the people and businesses of Gibraltar had an uncertain future ahead of them.
And that's why the UK, the government of Gibraltar, Spain and the European Commission agreed this practical and I think lasting solution which cements Gibraltar's economy, cements Gibraltar's way of life, cements the principle of sovereignty, and what it delivers is quite simple. In one way it is a fluid border between Gibraltar and Spain. That was the prize. The people of Gibraltar were clear. You're speaking to the Chief Minister. I know later on that was absolutely clear from his point of view as well.
Its stability, its jobs, its investment, not just for Gibraltar , but for the whole region. And crucially, a no negotiated outcome would have and could have imposed huge economic costs, running to hundreds of millions of pounds through disruption to cross cross-border workers trade and investment. So that was the prize all the time, making sure that our maxim of nothing about Gibraltar without Gibraltar was kept to the fore. And I'm pleased to say that that has been done throughout by Paul and his colleagues and everyone who's worked on it.
On the question of why it was not included, an agreement was not included in the TCA in December 2020. I mean, in a way, you should get Lord Frost in maybe and ask him that question. I think my best understanding is that that Gibraltar was not included in the scope of the TCA, because it was a position taken by the European Union at the time, and this was probably because of Spain's view that Gibraltar should have separate arrangements with the EU to the rest of the UK.
Now, given that Gibraltar's requirements are so different, the government, I think, then understand, took the decision to agree to separate the discussions and pursue a bespoke agreement alongside the Government of Gibraltar. I mean, looking back, it's perhaps this is me speculating, but it's probably difficult to conceive of how the Schengen arrangements that have been negotiated in this treaty could have been negotiated at the time of the TCA as well. So even though it was difficult at the time, I think there is virtue in the fact that we've, after a long time, ended up with an agreement which secures that that feature of the treaty agreement on the bridging measures, the bridging measures were quite successful for their time.
They were informal agreements between UK, Gibraltar and Spain primarily, again, focused on making sure that the border was kept fluid. And the core of them was an agreement to carry out immigration checks on EU and Gibraltar residents at at sorry, the core of it was not to carry out full immigration checks at the land border, but there were other bridging measures as well on things like reciprocal healthcare, data protection. The why weren't why wasn't that enough? A variety of reasons.
Firstly, there were periodic, periodic and growing issues of concern with certain categories of people, such as defence personnel who faced difficulty crossing the land border. Secondly, I think most crucially, as informal measures, they were just not sustainable in the long run. Businesses, people and the Government of Gibraltar were severely hampered in their ability to do long term, medium and long term planning because they relied on informal agreements, goodwill. And we know that politics can turn things, informal understandings on their head quite quickly.
So having security through a treaty was, was important. And the third thing about timing is the introduction of the entry exit system in the European Union. It meant that Spain would have would not have been able to continue allowing people to cross the border, the Spanish foreign minister, Alvarez said. I think in late 2024, publicly that the bridging measures could not continue after the introduction of the EES. So for all those reasons, there had to be a treaty solution.
And the last part of your question, I apologize. It's a long time. Why did it take five years? I guess two reasons. One is complexity. There's over a thousand pages long. As you will see, Paul, Paul here is still recovering. It was a sort of multifaceted negotiation across a number of different dossiers. Of course, that's complex. Complex cooperation was good. But we Spain has views and UK has views.
And importantly, Gibraltar has views, which meant that the conversations were long and complicated. There were particular complex arrangements that were required for things like checks on people in Gibraltar airport, which we're going to talk about, I'm sure later on customs arrangements, there was physical infrastructure that had to be constructed to make all these things possible, the dimensions of military aspects. So complexity is the main reason. I think the second reason is politics. If you look at the last five years, 2022 was a politically tumultuous year.
Here in the UK, 2023 was election year in Spain 2024. We had a change of government. I think the conversations, as far as I can understand and the cooperation continued, but the pace of them probably was interrupted by those political events in the last few years. Sorry, that was a long.
And that's why the UK, the government of Gibraltar, Spain and the European Commission agreed this practical and I think lasting solution which cements Gibraltar's economy, cements Gibraltar's way of life, cements the principle of sovereignty, and what it delivers is quite simple. In one way it is a fluid border between Gibraltar and Spain. That was the prize. The people of Gibraltar were clear. You're speaking to the Chief Minister. I know later on that was absolutely clear from his point of view as well.
Its stability, its jobs, its investment, not just for Gibraltar , but for the whole region. And crucially, a no negotiated outcome would have and could have imposed huge economic costs, running to hundreds of millions of pounds through disruption to cross cross-border workers trade and investment. So that was the prize all the time, making sure that our maxim of nothing about Gibraltar without Gibraltar was kept to the fore. And I'm pleased to say that that has been done throughout by Paul and his colleagues and everyone who's worked on it.
On the question of why it was not included, an agreement was not included in the TCA in December 2020. I mean, in a way, you should get Lord Frost in maybe and ask him that question. I think my best understanding is that that Gibraltar was not included in the scope of the TCA, because it was a position taken by the European Union at the time, and this was probably because of Spain's view that Gibraltar should have separate arrangements with the EU to the rest of the UK.
Now, given that Gibraltar's requirements are so different, the government, I think, then understand, took the decision to agree to separate the discussions and pursue a bespoke agreement alongside the Government of Gibraltar. I mean, looking back, it's perhaps this is me speculating, but it's probably difficult to conceive of how the Schengen arrangements that have been negotiated in this treaty could have been negotiated at the time of the TCA as well. So even though it was difficult at the time, I think there is virtue in the fact that we've, after a long time, ended up with an agreement which secures that that feature of the treaty agreement on the bridging measures, the bridging measures were quite successful for their time.
They were informal agreements between UK, Gibraltar and Spain primarily, again, focused on making sure that the border was kept fluid. And the core of them was an agreement to carry out immigration checks on EU and Gibraltar residents at at sorry, the core of it was not to carry out full immigration checks at the land border, but there were other bridging measures as well on things like reciprocal healthcare, data protection. The why weren't why wasn't that enough? A variety of reasons.
Firstly, there were periodic, periodic and growing issues of concern with certain categories of people, such as defence personnel who faced difficulty crossing the land border. Secondly, I think most crucially, as informal measures, they were just not sustainable in the long run. Businesses, people and the Government of Gibraltar were severely hampered in their ability to do long term, medium and long term planning because they relied on informal agreements, goodwill. And we know that politics can turn things, informal understandings on their head quite quickly.
So having security through a treaty was, was important. And the third thing about timing is the introduction of the entry exit system in the European Union. It meant that Spain would have would not have been able to continue allowing people to cross the border, the Spanish foreign minister, Alvarez said. I think in late 2024, publicly that the bridging measures could not continue after the introduction of the EES. So for all those reasons, there had to be a treaty solution.
And the last part of your question, I apologize. It's a long time. Why did it take five years? I guess two reasons. One is complexity. There's over a thousand pages long. As you will see, Paul, Paul here is still recovering. It was a sort of multifaceted negotiation across a number of different dossiers. Of course, that's complex. Complex cooperation was good. But we Spain has views and UK has views.
And importantly, Gibraltar has views, which meant that the conversations were long and complicated. There were particular complex arrangements that were required for things like checks on people in Gibraltar airport, which we're going to talk about, I'm sure later on customs arrangements, there was physical infrastructure that had to be constructed to make all these things possible, the dimensions of military aspects. So complexity is the main reason. I think the second reason is politics. If you look at the last five years, 2022 was a politically tumultuous year.
Here in the UK, 2023 was election year in Spain 2024. We had a change of government. I think the conversations, as far as I can understand and the cooperation continued, but the pace of them probably was interrupted by those political events in the last few years. Sorry, that was a long.
11:11
Lord Jackson of Peterborough
-
-
Lord Jackson of Peterborough
Thank you, Lord chairman. Congratulations on your appointment. Thank you very much. I know it probably comes second to playing for Liverpool FC, but, you know, take what's what you can get. Can I just press you you you raised a specific issue of the border. Can you. And the term fluidity at the frontier. I think your border. So what's the difference in practical terms between fluidity at the frontier which I know the government of Gibraltar and our government are using and free movement.
11:12
Speaker 1
-
Speaker 1
Fluidity at the frontier means that the 15,000 people who cross the border every day, that the economy of Gibraltar works on the land border can pass without checks. That's the key of fluidity at the border, as you know, for people arriving by air and sea, there's different arrangements, but that's the key definition of fluidity. Local economy. The people of Gibraltar and the First Minister prioritize the land border openness as the key to fluidity, but also key to the economic prosperity of the area.
And so that's the that's the key cardinal feature that the Gibraltar people wanted and which was negotiated, granted.
And so that's the that's the key cardinal feature that the Gibraltar people wanted and which was negotiated, granted.
11:12
11:12
Lord Grantchester
-
-
Lord Grantchester
too. My question is that the agreement wishes to enshrine a mutually cooperative arrangement between the EU and the UK, but obviously its effects are going to be felt between Gibraltar and Spain more specifically. How does the government in the UK plan to navigate this complex arrangement, and including, as it does immediately going into dynamic alignment? Will it require additional diplomatic resources?
11:13
Speaker 1
-
Speaker 1
Thank you for that question. You're right that the dynamics are definitely complex, and that's why the treaty establishes joint governance bodies, including a ministerial led cooperation council, three specialized committees which are in the process of being set up with the EU, which is similar to the withdrawal agreement and a range of dispute resolution mechanisms, which is standard in all international treaties, plus arrangements under that for working groups between the UK and Spain. So there's a complex web of supporting cooperative fora and institutions that will that will support this.
I mean, just to give you a sense of the range of, of, of British engagement in this that we have, obviously, the Gibraltar team in the Foreign Office, which is which is continuing to cooperate with the Government of Gibraltar, particularly on implementation issues, which continues to liaise with the European Commission in Gibraltar, the governor and his team in the convent. I had the pleasure of, by the way, going to Gibraltar last week for Gibraltar National Day. You can see pictures of me on the web wearing red trousers and a red tie, which is the national color of.
For the Gibraltar National Day. It was extremely enjoyable. Day and the governor and his team are excellent who do excellent work in the convent. We have the UK mission in Brussels which engages with the EU on Gibraltar matters. Our embassy in Madrid continue to engage with the Spanish MFA and obviously a lot of the issues to do with environmental issues engage officials from different government departments here in the UK. So not only is there a.
The treaty set up this network of interlocking cooperative institutions and. And groups. But there is also British diplomatic and other engagement throughout the system. So yes, it is a complex set of dynamics. We don't envisage that that that equipping ourselves with this challenge and meeting it in the implementation period is going to involve any significant increase in resources.
I mean, just to give you a sense of the range of, of, of British engagement in this that we have, obviously, the Gibraltar team in the Foreign Office, which is which is continuing to cooperate with the Government of Gibraltar, particularly on implementation issues, which continues to liaise with the European Commission in Gibraltar, the governor and his team in the convent. I had the pleasure of, by the way, going to Gibraltar last week for Gibraltar National Day. You can see pictures of me on the web wearing red trousers and a red tie, which is the national color of.
For the Gibraltar National Day. It was extremely enjoyable. Day and the governor and his team are excellent who do excellent work in the convent. We have the UK mission in Brussels which engages with the EU on Gibraltar matters. Our embassy in Madrid continue to engage with the Spanish MFA and obviously a lot of the issues to do with environmental issues engage officials from different government departments here in the UK. So not only is there a.
The treaty set up this network of interlocking cooperative institutions and. And groups. But there is also British diplomatic and other engagement throughout the system. So yes, it is a complex set of dynamics. We don't envisage that that that equipping ourselves with this challenge and meeting it in the implementation period is going to involve any significant increase in resources.
11:15
11:15
Speaker 1
-
Speaker 1
Well, again, not wanting to repeat myself, but you should probably ask someone else rather than me because I wasn't around. But I mean, obviously there are lots. There are, there are, there are practical issues, teething issues, both before and after the treaty, but teething issues. Now the treaty is in provisional force, which aren't really Brexit related. I guess the main Brexit related one that was the dominant problem was the was was the potential for the introduction of full immigration checks at the land border that the Gibraltar people made it clear.
The Gibraltar Chief Minister consistently made it clear that would have been a disaster for Gibraltar and for the surrounding region. And that is really what this agreement is designed to avoid, first and foremost. And the bridging measures, as I said, had a temporary solution but had no long term legal security. So replacing those informal arrangements with something that guaranteed the security and stability, that was really the big nut to crack as far as I as far as I understand it.
And that's the really central feature of the treaty that's emerged. So I guess that will be my my overwhelming central problem that the treaty has hopefully resolved . Session.
The Gibraltar Chief Minister consistently made it clear that would have been a disaster for Gibraltar and for the surrounding region. And that is really what this agreement is designed to avoid, first and foremost. And the bridging measures, as I said, had a temporary solution but had no long term legal security. So replacing those informal arrangements with something that guaranteed the security and stability, that was really the big nut to crack as far as I as far as I understand it.
And that's the really central feature of the treaty that's emerged. So I guess that will be my my overwhelming central problem that the treaty has hopefully resolved . Session.
11:17
11:17
11:17
Baroness Ashton of Upholland
-
-
Baroness Ashton of Upholland
were lots of principles that were set out by, I think, Foreign Secretary Dominic Raab in 2021 to sort of say what we should and shouldn't do. And at the heart of that has been the issue of sovereignty. And I pay tribute to Paul and his team because these are very complicated things. It's it's an extraordinary document that you've achieved. Are there areas where you feel that you kind of had to bump up against the principles? Are there areas where you feel that there was a challenge to this question of getting the sovereignty right, and do you feel at the end of it, comfortable that we've addressed all of the issues, or do you think there'll be a need to continue to address any of these bigger questions of principle later?
11:18
Speaker 1
-
Speaker 1
Yeah. Thank you. Thank you for that question. I mean, I guess categorically this this treaty does not affect sovereignty at all. We're very clear about that. And not only did we not discuss passing sovereignty of Gibraltar without the people of Gibraltar being being content, a longstanding principle we we didn't discuss sovereignty of Gibraltar at all in the course of this. But just to make crystal clear, article two of the treaty has a specific clause which explicitly makes clear that its contents do not impact the sovereignty position and cannot be used to challenge it.
So sovereignty is not the it wasn't on the table. It wasn't impacted. This agreement is about the technical arrangements that apply and which govern Gibraltar's relationship with the EU. And as I said before, the outcomes of this treaty are very bespoke. They reflect the unique circumstances of Gibraltar. It is unique treaty. It doesn't have any wider consequences beyond that. That was foreseen in the original Foreign Secretary statement, the bespoke nature of these arrangements, and as I said earlier, that's one of the reasons why the negotiations took as long as they did.
Now, some of the outcomes set out in the statement are different to what was envisaged in an operational sense, that's true, but the goals of border fluidity for people and goods in a way that's safe and manageable for customs and for the people of Gibraltar have been achieved. And the key thing is this was an outcome chosen by the Government of Gibraltar, unanimously supported by the Parliament of Gibraltar, supported by the people of Gibraltar. It's their choices that were respected in the arrangements that have been designed, and I think that is.
You will hear that message, I'm sure, from the Chief Minister. That is the fundamental reason that this is politically secure, I think.
So sovereignty is not the it wasn't on the table. It wasn't impacted. This agreement is about the technical arrangements that apply and which govern Gibraltar's relationship with the EU. And as I said before, the outcomes of this treaty are very bespoke. They reflect the unique circumstances of Gibraltar. It is unique treaty. It doesn't have any wider consequences beyond that. That was foreseen in the original Foreign Secretary statement, the bespoke nature of these arrangements, and as I said earlier, that's one of the reasons why the negotiations took as long as they did.
Now, some of the outcomes set out in the statement are different to what was envisaged in an operational sense, that's true, but the goals of border fluidity for people and goods in a way that's safe and manageable for customs and for the people of Gibraltar have been achieved. And the key thing is this was an outcome chosen by the Government of Gibraltar, unanimously supported by the Parliament of Gibraltar, supported by the people of Gibraltar. It's their choices that were respected in the arrangements that have been designed, and I think that is.
You will hear that message, I'm sure, from the Chief Minister. That is the fundamental reason that this is politically secure, I think.
11:20
11:20
11:20
11:20
Lord Moynihan of Chelsea
-
-
Lord Moynihan of Chelsea
Good morning, Lord wood, and many congratulations on your appointment and also on your very competent handling last week of, I think, your first frontbench debate in the chamber. Oh, thank you very much. The question was about sovereignty. Surely it would be the case that this appears to remove the territory from permanently from British trade policy, which surely must be a significant impingement upon our sovereignty. And, for example, would Gibraltar still be allowed to join Cptpp under this deal?
11:20
Speaker 1
-
Speaker 1
Well, I don't think it is. I might ask Paul to answer the question, but no, it doesn't touch on sovereignty at all. But the customs arrangement, as with the border arrangements were chosen by the Government of Gibraltar. The the question of sovereignty is not touched by that. These were choices that were made in pursuit of the goal to have a land border that was open in a way that would support the Gibraltan economy.
It's customary for for governments. We do it as well in order to satisfy treaty requirements in the name of a greater interest, we have to observe certain rules. That is what the Gibraltar's are doing. And and that's what this treaty enables. So it doesn't touch on the question of sovereignty. It sets up operational arrangements which involve choices by the government of Gibraltar that allow both on customs and the movement of people for fluidity to continue.
It's customary for for governments. We do it as well in order to satisfy treaty requirements in the name of a greater interest, we have to observe certain rules. That is what the Gibraltar's are doing. And and that's what this treaty enables. So it doesn't touch on the question of sovereignty. It sets up operational arrangements which involve choices by the government of Gibraltar that allow both on customs and the movement of people for fluidity to continue.
11:21
11:21
11:21
11:22
11:22
Speaker 2
-
Speaker 2
It's only about goods trade. So the Gibraltar has established a customs union with the EU with regard to trading goods. Gibraltar's interest in international trade, as I'm sure the Chief Minister will tell you, is in trade in services. And the answer to your question is that, yes, Gibraltar could accede to keep to the Trade in Services chapter that were relevant.
11:22
11:22
11:22
11:22
11:23
11:23
Lord Stirrup
-
-
Lord Stirrup
Could I ask a slightly different question on the sovereignty point, which I think might be of interest to some people. Sovereignty has not been ceded in this, but there are certain arrangements that have been made under the treaty. For example, you know, the involvement of Spanish customs, police, etcetera, etcetera. And some people might say, well, okay, that sounds fine. There are strict limits to that, but is there scope for a sort of a creeping expansion of Spain's role within Gibraltar? And if there is, how is that to be controlled under the arrangements that you described earlier for monitoring the ongoing process of the agreement?
11:24
Speaker 1
-
Speaker 1
I don't think so. I mean, I think I think creeping cooperation is what the Gibraltar's want. So setting up stronger forms. I saw myself when I saw that I went to visit the commander of British forces, Tim Davie, in Gibraltar, whose excellent work that he and his team do, and he was talking very positively about the early stages of cooperation with military liaison officers in Spain. Very positively. I talked to the Gibraltar Royal Gibraltar Police, Owen Richards, who's been there a few months.
Similarly, there are there are issues that need to be discussed with with with Spanish police with regard to civil and others, but he has good relations there. So first thing to say is that the scope for more and more, more and more cooperation at this stage is what's going to make the implementation of the treaty work. My understanding and Paul may want to jump in if this is a misrepresentation. My understanding is that each area there is clearly and carefully delineated scope for the relevant Spanish authority.
So, for example, in military, we're going to maybe talk about military issues in a minute. Spanish military officers are only involved in issues to do with assuring the application of derogation for military personnel and some very limited information sharing. Apart from that, they have no scope in the treaty for more jurisdictional roles. And so I think in each area, that principle seems to have been well applied to prevent the kind of concerns that you are worried about.
Similarly, there are there are issues that need to be discussed with with with Spanish police with regard to civil and others, but he has good relations there. So first thing to say is that the scope for more and more, more and more cooperation at this stage is what's going to make the implementation of the treaty work. My understanding and Paul may want to jump in if this is a misrepresentation. My understanding is that each area there is clearly and carefully delineated scope for the relevant Spanish authority.
So, for example, in military, we're going to maybe talk about military issues in a minute. Spanish military officers are only involved in issues to do with assuring the application of derogation for military personnel and some very limited information sharing. Apart from that, they have no scope in the treaty for more jurisdictional roles. And so I think in each area, that principle seems to have been well applied to prevent the kind of concerns that you are worried about.
11:25
Lord Tugendhat
-
-
Lord Tugendhat
Mine is a very different question. I'm very intrigued by the disputes arbitration procedure and sorry, the disputes arbitration procedure. And I was also struck in your answer to Lord Moynihan, by your distinction between joining the customs union and having a bespoke customs union. And I think that's a very important distinction. Now, the British government is engaged in negotiations with the EU, as we all know, over a variety of things, the electricity and the carbon emissions and the phytosanitary and so forth.
And in a sense, if these agreements, if these negotiations are successful, they will be bespoke agreements rather than joining the customs union. And I wondered, therefore, to what extent you consider that the arbitration procedure, which is a rather interesting one that applies in the case of Gibraltar, might provide a precedent in the case of the British government's negotiations.
And in a sense, if these agreements, if these negotiations are successful, they will be bespoke agreements rather than joining the customs union. And I wondered, therefore, to what extent you consider that the arbitration procedure, which is a rather interesting one that applies in the case of Gibraltar, might provide a precedent in the case of the British government's negotiations.
11:26
Speaker 1
-
Speaker 1
I can't pretend I'm an expert on the details of the arbitration procedure. You are right, though, to point to parallels in the. If, for example, in the choice to align on regulations between the Gibraltar approach on customs union and some aspects of Schengen and the. The approach the UK government is currently engaged in with. With the EU. Of course, that calculation is irrelevant. Comparison.
I may have to ask Paul to comment on. Specifically on the dispute. I'm sorry that your. The thing you're most passionate about is something I know perhaps little about, but Paul maybe can illustrate some of the themes you're talking about.
I may have to ask Paul to comment on. Specifically on the dispute. I'm sorry that your. The thing you're most passionate about is something I know perhaps little about, but Paul maybe can illustrate some of the themes you're talking about.
11:27
Speaker 2
-
Speaker 2
Yes. I mean, I think because the the arbitration procedure in the agreement is largely quite standard, apart from how it deals with matters of EU law, which is this referral potentially to the ECJ to decide on an interpretation of EU law. That mechanism was actually taken from the withdrawal agreement Barrow will be familiar with, which in turn was taken from previous EU agreements. So, I mean, you would I think you'd have to ask Cabinet Office colleagues on the specifics of the current negotiations.
But but yes, it makes sense that if that's how the EU has managed this in the Gibraltar deal and in the past, that it may it may serve as the basis for what we're doing with the EU at the moment. Yes.
But but yes, it makes sense that if that's how the EU has managed this in the Gibraltar deal and in the past, that it may it may serve as the basis for what we're doing with the EU at the moment. Yes.
11:28
11:28
11:28
Duke of Wellington
-
-
Duke of Wellington
Thank you. Thank you, Lord chairman. I should declare my historic interests in Spain as detailed in the register. My question is about the military base, the naval base, naval and military base, and whether in any way this treaty will have an impact on military personnel and coming and going and general access to and from, to and from the military base.
11:29
11:29
Speaker 1
-
Speaker 1
Sure. Well, thank you for that question. And it was made clear throughout the negotiations that safeguarding the operational autonomy of the UK's military facilities in Gibraltar was a total red line throughout throughout the discussions. And the treaty protects that autonomy. It allows our facilities to continue their crucial contribution there to regional security and to prosperity. There is no Spanish role in approving, authorising or controlling UK military operations.
UK, UK personnel deployments or military movements, and that's absolutely clear. There are specific arrangements the treaty provides for for military personnel and military goods to ensure the base can continue operating effectively following the removal of routine checks at the Gibraltar-spain border and a military personnel, civilians travelling on defence business and their immediate family members and close defence partners are not subject to routine Schengen entry and exit checks, and likewise, the treaty contains dedicated arrangements for military and dual use goods which preserve our ability to supply and operate our military facilities.
So these arrangements largely preserve the practical position that was that was in place. They supported widely by Ministry of Defence and the Defence Secretary. And however, on top of that, of course, we do have cooperation with the Spanish, who are a NATO ally. And it's important that that continues and deepens. They're a trusted ally. And and in light of the removal of the land border checks, we've agreed to limited information sharing, as I said earlier, with with the Spanish military through the military liaison officers nexus, which and the role that that the role of that relationship is to facilitate the operation of military derogations, as I said earlier on, and the smooth running of the treaty.
So that's the structure of the both protection of the autonomy of our military activities and the base, but also the limited cooperation, which is essential for smooth functioning of the treaty.
UK, UK personnel deployments or military movements, and that's absolutely clear. There are specific arrangements the treaty provides for for military personnel and military goods to ensure the base can continue operating effectively following the removal of routine checks at the Gibraltar-spain border and a military personnel, civilians travelling on defence business and their immediate family members and close defence partners are not subject to routine Schengen entry and exit checks, and likewise, the treaty contains dedicated arrangements for military and dual use goods which preserve our ability to supply and operate our military facilities.
So these arrangements largely preserve the practical position that was that was in place. They supported widely by Ministry of Defence and the Defence Secretary. And however, on top of that, of course, we do have cooperation with the Spanish, who are a NATO ally. And it's important that that continues and deepens. They're a trusted ally. And and in light of the removal of the land border checks, we've agreed to limited information sharing, as I said earlier, with with the Spanish military through the military liaison officers nexus, which and the role that that the role of that relationship is to facilitate the operation of military derogations, as I said earlier on, and the smooth running of the treaty.
So that's the structure of the both protection of the autonomy of our military activities and the base, but also the limited cooperation, which is essential for smooth functioning of the treaty.
11:31
11:31
Speaker 1
-
Speaker 1
Absolutely right. And I was very struck talking to the commander of British forces there about his positivity, about the early weeks of these arrangements and the relationships that he's building. So, yes, my it's been two months since the treaty came provisional force, but the relationship building is going well, as far as I can tell.
11:32
11:32
Baroness Smith of Newnham
-
-
Baroness Smith of Newnham
Thank you. I don't quite have a declaration of interest, but I did visit Gibraltar last year at the invitation of Gibraltar. police at the invitation of the Gibraltar government. So it falls slightly outside the declaration period. But I thought I would mention it. Just wanted to ask a specific question about Schengen. And in answer to your or follow up your response, Minister, you said that service personnel and their families wouldn't be subject to routine Schengen checks, right? Will they have some sort of document? That means that if they then visit other Schengen countries, they're not going to get caught up in the 90 days out of 180.
11:32
Speaker 1
-
Speaker 1
Yes. So yes. So the UK retains complete control of of who serves in Gibraltar and who travels there on defence business . And beneficiaries of beneficiaries of these derogations are not subject to the Schengen entry and exit requirements, as I say. So personnel will are required to demonstrate eligibility for the derogation through having a standard document, like a valid identity document or a movement order. And that's the way in which that that that operates in terms of the Schengen, the the Schengen 90 days rule, there is an arrangement now in place which enables the military personnel to clock in and clock out so that the Schengen clock stops and starts in the right ways.
That's that's an that's a that's a good example of implementation improvement that's happened in the last couple of months. In order to respond to your challenge, I hope. I hope that makes sense. Thank you Lord.
That's that's an that's a that's a good example of implementation improvement that's happened in the last couple of months. In order to respond to your challenge, I hope. I hope that makes sense. Thank you Lord.
11:33
Lord Brennan of Canton
-
-
Lord Brennan of Canton
Thank you, Lord chair, and welcome, Minister, and congratulations on your appointment. I know Lord Jackson and Baroness Ashton referred to your support of Liverpool Football Club, which you advertise in your title, but they may not be aware that you're also an avid musician. Very talented one as well. So we are hoping maybe you might be able to help us on that down the line in terms of cultural touring, but that's another another subject.
How will the agreement's provisions dealing with the refusal of individual entry into Gibraltar? How will that work, and who will take the final decision to exclude somebody and at what point in the process?
How will the agreement's provisions dealing with the refusal of individual entry into Gibraltar? How will that work, and who will take the final decision to exclude somebody and at what point in the process?
11:34
Speaker 1
-
Speaker 1
Thank you for that, Lord. I mean, the Government of Gibraltar has been in charge of these decisions for decades, and it is in charge of entry into Gibraltar, still under the under the treaty. Gibraltar residents, let's start with them. They cannot be refused entry to Gibraltar. The treaty has been. The treaty has been designed so that all residents have the right to return to return home. More generally, none of the parties wanted individuals who pose a genuine threat to security or safety to be able to enter Gibraltar or the wider Schengen area.
And so there was a strong. There is a strong shared interest in cooperation between Gibraltar, Spain and the relevant law enforcement authorities. And so to unlock the benefits of a fluid border. The arrangement now is that everyone arriving into the airport will undergoes, as I found out myself, Gibraltar immigration controls carried out by Gibraltar officers, followed by Schengen entry checks carried out by Spanish officials. And. On completion of these checks, individuals are able to enter both Gibraltar and the Schengen area.
So when an individual is the subject of an alert on the Schengen information system, which of course we don't get access to elsewhere. And or they don't meet the requirements for entry into the Schengen area, then Spain may refuse them entry into Schengen in those circumstances excuse the complexity of this. In those circumstances, the Government of Gibraltar has taken a decision. Their own decision to mutually recognise decisions taken by Spain to refuse entry to the Schengen area, where they're based on security or public safety concerns.
And
And so there was a strong. There is a strong shared interest in cooperation between Gibraltar, Spain and the relevant law enforcement authorities. And so to unlock the benefits of a fluid border. The arrangement now is that everyone arriving into the airport will undergoes, as I found out myself, Gibraltar immigration controls carried out by Gibraltar officers, followed by Schengen entry checks carried out by Spanish officials. And. On completion of these checks, individuals are able to enter both Gibraltar and the Schengen area.
So when an individual is the subject of an alert on the Schengen information system, which of course we don't get access to elsewhere. And or they don't meet the requirements for entry into the Schengen area, then Spain may refuse them entry into Schengen in those circumstances excuse the complexity of this. In those circumstances, the Government of Gibraltar has taken a decision. Their own decision to mutually recognise decisions taken by Spain to refuse entry to the Schengen area, where they're based on security or public safety concerns.
And
11:36
11:36
11:36
11:36
11:36
11:36
11:37
11:37
11:37
11:37
11:37
11:37
11:37
11:37
11:37
11:37
11:37
11:38
11:38
11:38
Lord Stirrup
-
-
Lord Stirrup
I agree entirely because I have to admit this is one area, I suppose many areas. When I ploughed through all those hundreds of pages that I got a bit baffled by, I clearly understand the point about Gibraltar accepting the Spanish decision and accepting to abide by that, but I don't quite understand how it works the other way round, because you say that Gibraltar can exclude who it likes, but has it agreed that it will never exclude a Spanish citizen? Has it agreed that it would never exclude an EU citizen? And you said they go to both.
So clearly the situation could arise where Gibraltar says you can't come into Gibraltar and Spain says you can come into Spain. In the EU, what happens?
So clearly the situation could arise where Gibraltar says you can't come into Gibraltar and Spain says you can come into Spain. In the EU, what happens?
11:39
11:39
11:39
11:39
11:39
11:39
Lord Jackson of Peterborough
-
-
Lord Jackson of Peterborough
Thank you, chairman. Notwithstanding what you're saying, Minister, about the agreement of Gibraltar government, the agreement nevertheless contains 43 annexes of EU legal aqui that will apply on a dynamic basis to Gibraltar. You know, why is this necessary? That's the first question. You will know that in 2024, the Commons EU committee argued that the UK concessions on the border alignment and the Schengen acquis and the airport threatened, quote, a serious diminution of UK sovereignty.
And when one looks at the list of of powers that this treaty conveys, Spain gets primacy in arrest, detention, search and seizure powers coercive action. It can block new residency permits. It can force withdrawal of existing residence permits. It can retrospectively review pre-treaty pre treaty permits. It can ban individual Gibraltar residents from leaving Gibraltar must provide quarterly. Gibraltar must provide quarterly risk assessments to Spain. Spain issues short term visas for Gibraltar.
Visitors can block emergency border visas. I mean , the list of powers that have been vested in Spain and the EU is very, very significant. So coming back to sovereignty, are you convinced that article two does not diminish is enough, rather, to address the argument that sovereignty has been seriously diminished by this treaty?
And when one looks at the list of of powers that this treaty conveys, Spain gets primacy in arrest, detention, search and seizure powers coercive action. It can block new residency permits. It can force withdrawal of existing residence permits. It can retrospectively review pre-treaty pre treaty permits. It can ban individual Gibraltar residents from leaving Gibraltar must provide quarterly. Gibraltar must provide quarterly risk assessments to Spain. Spain issues short term visas for Gibraltar.
Visitors can block emergency border visas. I mean , the list of powers that have been vested in Spain and the EU is very, very significant. So coming back to sovereignty, are you convinced that article two does not diminish is enough, rather, to address the argument that sovereignty has been seriously diminished by this treaty?
11:41
Speaker 1
-
Speaker 1
Sovereignty has not been diminished by this treaty. That's just it's just not true. Article two is reassurance. It's not a the rest of the treaty, as I said, is technical treaty about the relationship between Gibraltar and the EU. It's just not true. It's out of the question that these agreements undermine sovereignty, because this is areas where Gibraltar is choosing to align its rules with those of the EU in order to unlock benefits.
It's a choice that Gibraltar has made.
It's a choice that Gibraltar has made.
11:41
11:42
Speaker 1
-
Speaker 1
territory. Yes, but we have a constant, consistent key principle that nothing about Gibraltar. Without Gibraltar, the Gibraltar people have made decisions which we respect about the customs arrangements. Now, just to go back, it's not true also that there are 43 annexes about EU law. In fact, the majority of them don't have EU law. Many of them are about provisions in the main text to do with rules of procedure or simple lists of things such as relevant criminal offences.
We think roughly there are about eight of those annexes that contain references to EU law, and they are all measures where Gibraltar has committed to remain aligned with those in order to unlock the benefits of an open border, and this is a good thing for Gibraltar. It had to be a bespoke. As people in this room know who worked on this. It had to be a bespoke deal. It had to be a deal involving the consent of the Gibraltar people, of course.
And this is a model that's proportionate to Gibraltar's circumstances. It avoids them having to incorporate extensive, lengthy and frankly irrelevant EU law into their own domestic legislation. And it's something, crucially they've decided to do. So that's why it's not 43 annexes of EU law, but it is a Gibraltar opting in to certain limited provisions in the name of having a fluid land border and supporting the economy and the welfare of Gibraltar.
We think roughly there are about eight of those annexes that contain references to EU law, and they are all measures where Gibraltar has committed to remain aligned with those in order to unlock the benefits of an open border, and this is a good thing for Gibraltar. It had to be a bespoke. As people in this room know who worked on this. It had to be a bespoke deal. It had to be a deal involving the consent of the Gibraltar people, of course.
And this is a model that's proportionate to Gibraltar's circumstances. It avoids them having to incorporate extensive, lengthy and frankly irrelevant EU law into their own domestic legislation. And it's something, crucially they've decided to do. So that's why it's not 43 annexes of EU law, but it is a Gibraltar opting in to certain limited provisions in the name of having a fluid land border and supporting the economy and the welfare of Gibraltar.
11:43
Lord Jackson of Peterborough
-
-
Lord Jackson of Peterborough
Okay, that's a helpful and comprehensive reply. My, my final question, if I may, chairman, is would you concede that there has been some concern and disquiet in the employment market in that these. This treaty gives the power of the EU in Spain to de facto block the entrance of British nationals who hitherto would have worked in Spain, and that. That's the power that they will necessarily exercise that power, but that there may therefore be a displacement of employment opportunities, as between British nationals and local Spanish.
And that that is something that that has caused some concern. That is the power that the treaty gives to the to the Spanish and to the EU.
And that that is something that that has caused some concern. That is the power that the treaty gives to the to the Spanish and to the EU.
11:44
Speaker 1
-
Speaker 1
I'm not quite sure I recognise that description of it, if I'm honest. I mean, yes, there is a thriving Gibraltar economy which relies on on many Spanish workers. That's why preserving the openness of the land border was so crucial. Gibraltar remains in charge of deciding whether nationals can come in, so I'm sure there are concerns as economic change happens, which happen in every part of the world. But nothing in the treaty has established a fundamentally new dynamic.
And those two respects, in fact, it's provided legal certainty for both of those features, which has been welcomed by Gibraltar's.
And those two respects, in fact, it's provided legal certainty for both of those features, which has been welcomed by Gibraltar's.
11:44
11:44
Lord Elliott of Mickle Fell
-
-
Lord Elliott of Mickle Fell
Thank you, Lord chairman, and welcome to the committee. Lord Ward. As you know, the public often analyze new treaties and agreements using cost and spending as a sort of measure and metric, a shortcut, if you like. For that. I'd like to explore that a bit. The agreement says that the Cooperation Council will establish a financial mechanism aimed at promoting cohesion in the region. How much will Gibraltar pay for these arrangements, and will the UK be required to make a contribution?
11:45
Speaker 1
-
Speaker 1
Well, thank you for the question. I know there's been some interest in this. The treaty is designed to obviously fundamentally create the conditions for prosperity in the region. That's that's the fundamental purpose of it and the surrounding region. By removing barriers to the movement of goods and people. And under the financial mechanism you refer to, both parties will establish independent funds to benefit Gibraltar and the region around Gibraltar. So the Government of Gibraltar will set up a fund which could, for example, provide employee training.
Employee development in Gibraltar for frontier workers. But you have the chief minister coming. You can ask the Chief Minister about that proposal. There's no specific timelines for establishing this yet, but we expect it to be set up soon, and we'll have more details. More details will be available in due course. Since the specifics have been agreed within the Cooperation Council, as agreed under the concordat between Gibraltar and the UK, the political agreement the UK contribution to the mechanism will come from Gibraltar and will not be met from UK taxpayer funding.
Employee development in Gibraltar for frontier workers. But you have the chief minister coming. You can ask the Chief Minister about that proposal. There's no specific timelines for establishing this yet, but we expect it to be set up soon, and we'll have more details. More details will be available in due course. Since the specifics have been agreed within the Cooperation Council, as agreed under the concordat between Gibraltar and the UK, the political agreement the UK contribution to the mechanism will come from Gibraltar and will not be met from UK taxpayer funding.
11:46
11:46
Lord Barrow
-
-
Lord Barrow
Thank you very much. And I should recall, my interest is not the least I've been alluded to, having worked on negotiations of related agreements and indeed in the early and successful years of this negotiation. And welcome, Minister, and congratulations on your appointment. And I join others also in congratulating Paul Lindsay Appleby and others who did so much to get this agreement over the line. Minister, you've just referred to the Concordat, and I just wanted to ask you about that, because the Gibraltar's parliamentarians unanimously agreed to the agreement in March 2026, subject to that concordat.
And I wonder if you could tell us why the concordat was necessary and what its impact is.
And I wonder if you could tell us why the concordat was necessary and what its impact is.
11:47
Speaker 1
-
Speaker 1
Thank you. Just before I say that, to add to your list of thanks, my predecessor, Stephen Doughty, who was the Minister for Europe, he did a lot of work to make sure that this. This got over the line. The on the Concordat, the Concordat is a. An agreement, a political agreement between the UK and Gibraltar. Why is it needed? Because we wanted to provide clarity on how Gibraltar and the UK can work together to ensure the treaty is smooth and implementation happens, and that's the fundamental purpose of the Concordat .
It sets out respective responsibilities for implementing the treaty, and it's an essential accompaniment that Gibraltar wanted it. It provides clarity, which is helpful from a UK government point of view, while respecting our respecting our respective constitutional arrangements and the UK's international obligations. As far as I understand it, it was always the intention to have such a document alongside the treaty, a document with the Government of Gibraltar, a similar one, was agreed as part of the withdrawal agreement.
I'm sure you know about that. And we want this treaty and the arrangements it sets up to last in perpetuity for a very, very, very long time. And the impact of the concordat is to clarify how we envisage the treaty being implemented. Between us as a party to the treaty and Gibraltar, who, as I keep saying, are in charge of their own affairs. So that's the purpose of the of the Concordat.
It sets out respective responsibilities for implementing the treaty, and it's an essential accompaniment that Gibraltar wanted it. It provides clarity, which is helpful from a UK government point of view, while respecting our respecting our respective constitutional arrangements and the UK's international obligations. As far as I understand it, it was always the intention to have such a document alongside the treaty, a document with the Government of Gibraltar, a similar one, was agreed as part of the withdrawal agreement.
I'm sure you know about that. And we want this treaty and the arrangements it sets up to last in perpetuity for a very, very, very long time. And the impact of the concordat is to clarify how we envisage the treaty being implemented. Between us as a party to the treaty and Gibraltar, who, as I keep saying, are in charge of their own affairs. So that's the purpose of the of the Concordat.
11:49
11:49
11:49
11:49
11:49
11:49
Speaker 1
-
Speaker 1
I think that I think that whoever the UK government is, they will want they have a vested interest in wanting a working, functioning, cooperative relationship with the Government of Gibraltar. Government of Gibraltar will always want clarity about the implementation of the treaty that they're that they depend on. So I'm very hopeful that it will continue to be in place.
11:50
Lord Stirrup
-
-
Lord Stirrup
Well, I'm I'm not saying it's a bad thing, but I think we should be very clear about its status and that a treaty is a treaty and has all sorts of enforcement mechanisms. The concordat as described by you, is a political agreement which will require continued political work. If an engagement, if I can put it that way, sure. Does that sound right? Tim's looking a bit puzzled. I'm
11:50
11:50
11:50
11:50
Lord Moynihan of Chelsea
-
-
Lord Moynihan of Chelsea
Thank you, chair. Thank you. Again. I'd like to turn to the topic of termination. Obviously, something of considerably more interest to our side possibly, than to the government. It seems, from a reading, and I could have got this wrong. It's quite complex that there are three mutually inconsistent ways in which the treaty can be terminated. You've got article three, three, four that says termination can take place on 12 months notice, plus Gibraltar's consent and a confirming referendum.
So that's a nice, solid, quite difficult to break or to happen process. But then you've got article 1905 that provides for termination within 90 days. Without further ado. And then you've got a provision, as I understand it, that Spain at will is allowed to unilaterally force the termination of the entire agreement. Now. Let's say article three, three, four allows you know, that's what we've got in mind.
Lock this thing in very, very difficult to get out. Article 1905. Let's save that. For some bizarre reason. Gibraltar, Alexa Farage's government and who who wants to get out? Apparently they can just give 90 days notice and go. And then we were wanting to make Spain happy and produce something that wouldn't be changed. But apparently Spain can continue to apply pressure should they have some aggressive government, because they can say, if you don't give us more concessions, we're going to terminate this whole thing at will.
Is, have I got this right?
So that's a nice, solid, quite difficult to break or to happen process. But then you've got article 1905 that provides for termination within 90 days. Without further ado. And then you've got a provision, as I understand it, that Spain at will is allowed to unilaterally force the termination of the entire agreement. Now. Let's say article three, three, four allows you know, that's what we've got in mind.
Lock this thing in very, very difficult to get out. Article 1905. Let's save that. For some bizarre reason. Gibraltar, Alexa Farage's government and who who wants to get out? Apparently they can just give 90 days notice and go. And then we were wanting to make Spain happy and produce something that wouldn't be changed. But apparently Spain can continue to apply pressure should they have some aggressive government, because they can say, if you don't give us more concessions, we're going to terminate this whole thing at will.
Is, have I got this right?
11:52
Speaker 1
-
Speaker 1
Well, let me answer the 195 point because I think the three, three, four point you've that isn't the bone of contention that you're asking about. It's 195. And the third alleged exit option on on 1905. This this is a provision that is precedented in the agreements the EU has with Norway, with Switzerland, with Iceland, about Schengen arrangements with the EU. And the purpose of it is it's for a very specific scenario where if Gibraltar explicitly rejected or ignored an update to an EU act that they have committed to align to.
It begins a 90 day period when there is. Where an alternative determination is examined by the parties, a sort of discussion period in order to avoid it. The purpose is to avoid that provision kicking in. It's. And it's a pretty decent assumption. Unlike your assumption that a frie Farage's government would take over in a country that had a 96% support, who knows the referendum. It is a reasonable assumption that a period of 90 days would be used pretty intensively by all parties to to sort out an agreement.
So that's on 95. I'm going to hand over to Paul on the on your Spain's unilateral mechanism allegation, which Paul knows more about than I do.
It begins a 90 day period when there is. Where an alternative determination is examined by the parties, a sort of discussion period in order to avoid it. The purpose is to avoid that provision kicking in. It's. And it's a pretty decent assumption. Unlike your assumption that a frie Farage's government would take over in a country that had a 96% support, who knows the referendum. It is a reasonable assumption that a period of 90 days would be used pretty intensively by all parties to to sort out an agreement.
So that's on 95. I'm going to hand over to Paul on the on your Spain's unilateral mechanism allegation, which Paul knows more about than I do.
11:53
Speaker 2
-
Speaker 2
Yes, I think I know the article you're referring to, which is in the in the Mobility of Persons chapter, which comes after the review of the Mobility of persons at the end of four years. And I I've not got it in front of me, but I think it says something along the lines of, If Spain informs the EU that they are no longer content, then the EU will set in process the process of termination. So it's a Spanish request to.
For the EU as the party to terminate the treaty. I think you've identified that correctly. I mean, what I would say is it it's it triggers the termination process, which is a 12 month. I think it might be nine months in that process where alternatives can be can be found. But I would I would say that what, what that is, is reflecting the reality that most of the treaty from the EU side is, is Spain affects Spain, and it's for Spain to implement.
And we've recognised that on our side through the Concordat and the very, very tight drafting of the termination provisions in the in the Concordat, setting out the process for how the UK would would use the termination provisions of the treaty. So it. Both those provisions are sort of acknowledgement of the reality that the treaty is fundamentally mainly about the relationship between Gibraltar and Spain.
For the EU as the party to terminate the treaty. I think you've identified that correctly. I mean, what I would say is it it's it triggers the termination process, which is a 12 month. I think it might be nine months in that process where alternatives can be can be found. But I would I would say that what, what that is, is reflecting the reality that most of the treaty from the EU side is, is Spain affects Spain, and it's for Spain to implement.
And we've recognised that on our side through the Concordat and the very, very tight drafting of the termination provisions in the in the Concordat, setting out the process for how the UK would would use the termination provisions of the treaty. So it. Both those provisions are sort of acknowledgement of the reality that the treaty is fundamentally mainly about the relationship between Gibraltar and Spain.
11:55
Lord Moynihan of Chelsea
-
-
Lord Moynihan of Chelsea
Okay, I think I think you've confirmed that what I said was correct. And and just in a friendly way, I would say we can't just say, oh, well, Gibraltarians are 95% in agreement with this right now. We can't hardly say that in a month where Ceuta has been invaded by tens of thousands of Moroccans. And we can immediately see that that whole situation is likely to collapse in a relatively short space of time. So we we can't just say, oh, none of these will ever happen.
You're saying that in this treaty, this could happen. As I understand it, Spain or your Faraj or. Obviously the first we all agree on.
You're saying that in this treaty, this could happen. As I understand it, Spain or your Faraj or. Obviously the first we all agree on.
11:56
Lord Stirrup
-
-
Lord Stirrup
Could I, because I'm just so clear in my own mind what I understood, what I understand to be the case. And what you just said is that the, the, the main withdrawal mechanism, the first one that Lord Moynihan set out is, is the principle instrument. The second one would only kick in if Gibraltar refused to align with, in other words, to live up to its agreements, which is fine. But the third one is that Spain at any time can decide.
It doesn't like this arrangement and therefore can terminate it and or rather sort of insist that the EU terminated because it's not a Spanish agreement. So, so have I got that wrong?
It doesn't like this arrangement and therefore can terminate it and or rather sort of insist that the EU terminated because it's not a Spanish agreement. So, so have I got that wrong?
11:56
11:57
11:57
11:57
11:57
Lord Tugendhat
-
-
Lord Tugendhat
I can't remember a time when there haven't been negotiations going on about Gibraltar , or envisaged or broken down or renewed or whatever. So let me just ask you, do we think that this agreement actually settles matter for Gibraltar as far ahead as you can see, or do you think further agreements will be necessary? Of course, Lord Moynihan is right that the unexpected can happen. But as of now, do you feel that this issue is now wrapped up?
11:58
Speaker 1
-
Speaker 1
From a treaty point of view? Yes. It's the last piece of the jigsaw after Brexit and I think everyone involved. I can't claim any credit for myself. I've just arrived in my job. But everyone, all his colleagues, people of Gibraltar, the officials who worked in Spain as well, everyone should, I think, be applauded for for arriving at a settlement that is is now. The issue is now about implementation and rather than about the fundamentals.
And I think that's an extraordinary achievement. And one of the crystal clear things about the treaty is that it is that sovereignty is protected. So we've done all this, not we, but it has been achieved while sovereignty has been protected completely. Now, of course, we may agree in future that there are changes in arrangements that will be needed in the implementation and the operation of the different, different economic activities and different jurisdictional, different law enforcement operations.
Of course, of course, there'll have to be adjustments to the way it's implemented. But as far as the treaty goes, this is a stable and lasting foundation for Gibraltar's relationship with the EU for for many, many years to come.
And I think that's an extraordinary achievement. And one of the crystal clear things about the treaty is that it is that sovereignty is protected. So we've done all this, not we, but it has been achieved while sovereignty has been protected completely. Now, of course, we may agree in future that there are changes in arrangements that will be needed in the implementation and the operation of the different, different economic activities and different jurisdictional, different law enforcement operations.
Of course, of course, there'll have to be adjustments to the way it's implemented. But as far as the treaty goes, this is a stable and lasting foundation for Gibraltar's relationship with the EU for for many, many years to come.
11:59
11:59
Lord Stirrup
-
-
Lord Stirrup
Well, thank you very much indeed. And we just come up to 12:00 on time, which is good. So I'd like to thank our witnesses, Lord Wood of Anfield and Paul Hughes from the Fcdo, very much indeed for giving evidence today. It's been a pleasure to see you in this role. And with that, I suspend the public session. Well, good afternoon and welcome to this resumed session of the European Affairs Select Committee in the House of Lords, where we are conducting an evidence session on the UK, EU Gibraltar Treaty.
And I'm very grateful to our witness for the second session, the Honourable Fabian Picardo KC MP, who is the Chief Minister of Gibraltar. Thank you very much indeed for joining us. We look forward to your evidence, public evidence, as I said earlier, and we hope to finish by 1:00. If you are content, we will get underway, and I would like to start, if I may, just by asking a general question to enable you briefly to set the background before we get into into more detail, and I wonder if you could say from your perspective, why you think the vote of the Gibraltarians was so Aryans was so overwhelming in favor of this treaty.
And I'm very grateful to our witness for the second session, the Honourable Fabian Picardo KC MP, who is the Chief Minister of Gibraltar. Thank you very much indeed for joining us. We look forward to your evidence, public evidence, as I said earlier, and we hope to finish by 1:00. If you are content, we will get underway, and I would like to start, if I may, just by asking a general question to enable you briefly to set the background before we get into into more detail, and I wonder if you could say from your perspective, why you think the vote of the Gibraltarians was so Aryans was so overwhelming in favor of this treaty.
12:02
12:02
12:02
12:03
Speaker 1
-
Speaker 1
we are now, where we have this treaty? So, my Lords, thank you for the. opportunity to address you from Gibraltar. I'm sorry I cannot be in. London with you. 2016 was a very difficult year for Gibraltar. The result of the UK referendum on membership of the European Union in effect. upended our economy as it was, or had the.
12:03
12:03
Speaker 1
-
Speaker 1
Of upending our economy as it was, that was deeply. understood by the people of Gibraltar, and it's for that. reason that they voted. overwhelmingly to remain in the European Union, because, of course, it wasn't just our economy that would be upended. It would be the ability of many in Gibraltar to visit their closest family who might live in Spain. The ability to continue to live the lives that we live, not just in the reduced geography of.
12:04
12:04
Speaker 1
-
Speaker 1
But also with access to southern Spain and Europe from Gibraltar. All of that we could see would end in the way that it has ended. For many of those who might have found it so easy to get from the United Kingdom to. destinations in the European Union and during the course of this summer, to name but one, have found that the. application of new EU border rules, all of which were known about in.
12:04
12:04
12:04
12:04
12:05
12:05
Baroness Suttie
-
-
Baroness Suttie
Thank you very much indeed. That's a helpfully sets the scene. Thank you, Lord chair. You've talked a little there about the some of the practical problems that Brexit caused for Gibraltar, and that this agreement seeks to solve. Which of these were the most difficult and sensitive issues? And do you believe that . This
12:05
12:05
12:05
Speaker 1
-
Speaker 1
The issue of fluidity at the frontier was the issue that we faced as the starkest and potentially the most dangerous. I was indicating to you before that. 15,000 cross frontier workers come into Gibraltar every day. I mean, if you just imagine the volume of people that that represents when they need to come in between.
12:05
Speaker 1
-
Speaker 1
And if you apply that entry checks or exit checks, if they went perfectly well, would take about, you know, 15 to. 30s per person, and that the ability of us to have a number of lanes would be restricted to perhaps 2 or 3. You can see that fluidity of people was going to become a huge issue. And those people work in our public.
12:06
12:06
12:06
12:06
Speaker 1
-
Speaker 1
They work in the public, in the public and private sector in equal measure. And so therefore, the government's ability to offer the public services that we offer in Gibraltar, which are, if I may say so, at the highest European standard, and our ability to produce the public. finances that fund them were at risk. And you can .
12:06
12:06
12:07
12:07
12:07
12:07
12:07
12:07
12:07
12:07
12:07
12:07
12:07
12:08
Speaker 1
-
Speaker 1
Political parties at. Westminster have been equally supportive of the Government of . Gibraltar. In the. negotiations that we have been involved in, both in the context of the withdrawal agreement, where I see my good friend Lord Barrow is among you, and no doubt we'll have something to say about that. And then the. negotiation of the New Years Eve framework agreement, which was between the United Kingdom and Spain and.
12:08
12:08
12:08
12:08
12:08
12:08
12:08
12:08
12:09
12:09
Speaker 1
-
Speaker 1
the evidence I give these committees, I think that the presidents. Trump and the speech by Vice. President Vance and the Munich Security Conference in February of that year was 25, I think, was what gave the biggest boost to the. negotiations as all of Europe and the United Kingdom. realized that we needed to start working together and thinking together about. geopolitical issues and geopolitical.
12:09
12:09
12:09
12:09
Baroness Smith of Newnham
-
-
Baroness Smith of Newnham
issues. Thank you, thank you. I suspect. President Trump and Vice President Vance would not be very. enthusiastic to realize that they were. helping the cause of European integration and cooperation. But in terms of the. negotiations that we've seen across, as you say, two different governments of two different political. persuasions in the UK, to what extent do you feel that the.
principles that you and the then Foreign secretary, Dominic Raab, released in.
principles that you and the then Foreign secretary, Dominic Raab, released in.
12:10
12:10
12:10
12:10
12:10
12:10
12:10
12:10
Speaker 1
-
Speaker 1
issues that remain on the table? Thank you, my lady. They were not his aides. They were my aides. They were the aims of my negotiating team and the Government of Gibraltar to which the United Kingdom agreed. But what you've referred to, and not the terms of those. negotiating guidelines of the United Kingdom, what you referred to is what we call the double lock on the Gibraltar Constitution, which dates from 2006.
It's a sine qua non for any government of Gibraltar that that should be the position. And it has been the position of the United Kingdom since then. The key issue for us, and the key issue for Mr. Raab, and the key issue for all foreign secretaries that I've worked with of all political.
It's a sine qua non for any government of Gibraltar that that should be the position. And it has been the position of the United Kingdom since then. The key issue for us, and the key issue for Mr. Raab, and the key issue for all foreign secretaries that I've worked with of all political.
12:11
12:11
Speaker 1
-
Speaker 1
Has been that the sovereignty of Gibraltar, the. exclusively British sovereignty of Gibraltar, should not be. compromised by one iota in any arrangements that we entered into, and they have not been. And I'm very happy to go through any outstanding threads that you may feel you might want to talk to me about after having taken the evidence of. Lord would given the questions I've heard from Lord Moynihan and others, if you wish, because I can put my hand in the.
Gibraltarian political fire and tell you that not one . Iota
Gibraltarian political fire and tell you that not one . Iota
12:11
12:12
12:12
12:12
12:12
12:12
12:12
12:12
Lord Jackson of Peterborough
-
-
Lord Jackson of Peterborough
met the negotiating team. Jackson Liberals do tend to be on the left in this country. Chief Minister, can I ask you just picking up on what you say about sovereignty, and we will come back to sovereignty in more substance a bit later. But something that the minister you will have heard didn't really allude to that much, but is important, is the. potential involvement of the European Court of Justice in. interpretation of the legal acquis of the European Union? How do you do you see that in terms of dispute resolution being an issue that .
May
May
12:13
12:13
Speaker 1
-
Speaker 1
upon the sovereignty of Gibraltar in the future? Absolutely not. Let's be very clear. The people of Gibraltar voted. 96% to remain in the European Union. That means the full application of the European Court of Justice's. jurisdiction under, as it was under the European Communities Act. What Gibraltar is doing is akin to what the United Kingdom did in 1972. That is to say, it is. agreeing to abide by rules of a club, and it is.
agreeing that the courts, the dispute resolution mechanism of that club, which is the European Court of Justice, should be able to.
agreeing that the courts, the dispute resolution mechanism of that club, which is the European Court of Justice, should be able to.
12:13
Speaker 1
-
Speaker 1
As to those rules as a price for membership membership, which can be. determined and will go, no doubt, through the termination issues that you've touched upon already, which can be determined in a number of different ways. Should the people of Gibraltar, in the exercise of their own sovereign, will so.
12:14
12:14
12:14
12:14
12:14
12:14
Speaker 1
-
Speaker 1
And there's a good reason for it, too, because that European text has a life in the European Union legal order and in our treaty. And what you cannot have, and this makes a lot of. jurisprudential sense, is different. interpretation of exactly the same words in exactly the same circumstances. So, for example, a. directive on matters of the. environment which applies within the member states in the EU, which is .
interpreted in a particular way by the European Court of Justice, if the dispute.
interpreted in a particular way by the European Court of Justice, if the dispute.
12:15
12:15
Speaker 1
-
Speaker 1
Because it might also be one of the instruments that we agree should apply under the treaty, be subject to a different. interpretation as to its same words by the dispute resolution. mechanism of the treaty. Without that dispute resolution mechanism under the treaty, having regard to the . interpretation of the European Court of Justice. This is not .
12:15
12:15
Lord Brennan of Canton
-
-
Lord Brennan of Canton
Jurisprudential consistency. Right. Thank you, Lord Brennan. Thank you very much, Lord chair, and thank you for joining us. Chief Minister, you may have heard I think you did manage to hear some of the earlier exchanges with the minister, Lord Wood, and the question I asked about how will the agreement's provisions deal with the refusal of individual entry into Gibraltar? How would they work, and who takes the final decision to exclude somebody and when? And there was in the answer from both the minister and the official.
I think some confusion over exactly how that would work. And they did agree to write with us to clarify that prior to any debate we might have in the House of Lords itself. And did you hear that exchange? And do you have any can you shed any more light on .
I think some confusion over exactly how that would work. And they did agree to write with us to clarify that prior to any debate we might have in the House of Lords itself. And did you hear that exchange? And do you have any can you shed any more light on .
12:16
12:16
12:16
12:16
12:16
12:16
12:16
12:16
12:16
12:16
Speaker 1
-
Speaker 1
through the issue as we see it, because I think that might be more helpful. So so the principle that we set out in the New Years Eve framework. agreement was a very simple one, which written down is actually very complex, which is namely that Gibraltar would continue to do the Gibraltar immigration check and would have the jurisdiction that it has today to accept or deny an. individual having . The right
12:17
12:17
12:17
12:17
12:17
12:17
12:17
12:17
12:17
12:18
12:18
12:18
12:18
12:18
12:18
12:18
12:18
12:18
12:18
12:18
12:18
12:18
12:18
12:18
12:18
12:18
12:19
12:19
12:19
12:19
12:19
Speaker 1
-
Speaker 1
permitted to come into Gibraltar. But of course, if they then go into Spain, they would be illegally in Spain. So they're very restricted circumstances in which they would be able to come into Gibraltar. These are the. circumstances which are very similar to the circumstances that apply, and I think I should have made this point also. Thank you for taking me up on it. I should have said that these are very similar arrangements to the arrangements that apply when somebody arrives at any of the EU Schengen states, and they have not been permitted a Schengen visa.
So there are circumstances, for.
So there are circumstances, for.
12:19
12:19
12:20
12:20
12:20
12:20
12:20
12:20
12:20
12:20
Speaker 1
-
Speaker 1
UK? I don't have any insights on that. I mean, I think I don't want to make any comment on matters beyond my. jurisdiction or competence. If you'll forgive me, I would, I would only I was giving the the the view I was giving because it was a clear. accelerant at the table, not because I'm making any comment on on .
12:21
12:21
12:21
12:21
12:21
12:21
12:21
Lord Grantchester
-
-
Lord Grantchester
motto Nil Satis Optimum. So with that in mind, the parties have agreed to implement the principles of good governance in the area of. taxation on the basis of. transparency and exchange of. information and fair tax competition. And article 211. How will this obligation actually work, and . What are the.
12:22
12:22
12:22
Speaker 1
-
Speaker 1
Let me give you a reason to be proud of this particular British overseas territory. We were the first. jurisdiction in the European Union, that is to say, ahead of the United Kingdom, ahead of Germany or France, to. implement the fourth anti-money laundering directives. obligation to have an open. register of.
12:22
12:22
12:23
12:23
12:23
12:23
12:23
12:23
12:23
12:23
12:23
12:23
12:23
Lord Jackson of Peterborough
-
-
Lord Jackson of Peterborough
Good Lord Jackson. Thank you. Chairman. I'm going to ask a slightly different question than I'd originally intended, because I think Mr. Picardo has has adequately. addressed the the issue about the ackee and the treaty itself. So can I can I ask you, given that the old UK visa route for travel to. Gibraltar ended on.
12:24
12:24
12:24
12:24
Lord Jackson of Peterborough
-
-
Lord Jackson of Peterborough
, young Spanish people in the service industry, hospitality and leisure, rather than the traditional route where you did have a not insignificant number of young British people coming to Gibraltar to train and take part in the employment market, in leisure. tourism and those areas. Is that something that concerns you? Because the corollary of that is that there will, over time, be a.
12:24
12:25
12:25
12:25
12:25
12:25
12:25
12:25
12:25
12:25
Speaker 1
-
Speaker 1
answer it directly? Thank you. Of course I will. And I will preface my answer by saying that the position from which it comes is entirely. misconceived for a simple reason. There are almost none of the people that you. describe in the Gibraltar job market. Young Brits who might wander down to Gibraltar, who might form part of the Gibraltar employment market. The reality is that we have a resident.
population that is in the employment market, and there are, last time I checked, seven people unemployed who are residents of Gibraltar. Let's be very clear. I don't know whether the microphone might create . Some
population that is in the employment market, and there are, last time I checked, seven people unemployed who are residents of Gibraltar. Let's be very clear. I don't know whether the microphone might create . Some
12:26
12:26
12:26
12:26
12:26
12:26
Speaker 1
-
Speaker 1
Don't let me answer. I can't give you the answer. 15,500 people who come through the frontier every day to work in Gibraltar. Half of them are Spanish. Half of the balance are British, and they will continue to be able to come to Gibraltar to work without. impairment in the same way as they've become resident of Spain before and come to Gibraltar tomorrow, they will be able to become residents of Spain before and come to Gibraltar to work.
There's absolutely no. question of a British person who wants to work in Gibraltar, who has a job in Gibraltar, being able to come into. Gibraltar as a result of this treaty. It's just not. related to anything set out in the treaty. I think what you're trying to get at is that the Government of Gibraltar, of its own motion, has set out a new residence requirement for those who will be able to become resident in.
Gibraltar and to take employment in Gibraltar. The reason for that is because the treaty makes Gibraltar such an attractive jurisdiction to become resident, in that we have to be more discerning than we may have been before about who becomes resident in Gibraltar. We've set out a. minimum wage that you need to be able to demonstrate your earning to maintain yourself in Gibraltar, which I think is in the region of.
There's absolutely no. question of a British person who wants to work in Gibraltar, who has a job in Gibraltar, being able to come into. Gibraltar as a result of this treaty. It's just not. related to anything set out in the treaty. I think what you're trying to get at is that the Government of Gibraltar, of its own motion, has set out a new residence requirement for those who will be able to become resident in.
Gibraltar and to take employment in Gibraltar. The reason for that is because the treaty makes Gibraltar such an attractive jurisdiction to become resident, in that we have to be more discerning than we may have been before about who becomes resident in Gibraltar. We've set out a. minimum wage that you need to be able to demonstrate your earning to maintain yourself in Gibraltar, which I think is in the region of.
12:27
12:28
12:28
Speaker 1
-
Speaker 1
Whether they are British or not British, who might be able to bring something to the emerging digital industries that we have. And we have exemptions for people who are. particularly young. So I think that's what your question is getting at. We've resolved the issue that some of our businesses identified with those new residence requirements, but those new residence requirements are not required by the treaty. There are own.
sovereign in Gibraltar.
sovereign in Gibraltar.
12:28
12:28
12:28
12:28
12:28
12:28
12:28
12:28
12:28
12:28
12:28
12:28
12:29
12:29
12:29
12:29
12:29
12:29
12:29
12:29
12:29
Lord Elliott of Mickle Fell
-
-
Lord Elliott of Mickle Fell
clarify that. Thank you. Good. Right. Lord Eliot, thank you for joining us. Chief Minister, I'd like to explore the one of the cost elements of the agreement. The agreement says that the Cooperation Council will establish a financial. mechanism aimed at promoting cohesion in the region. How much will Gibraltar pay for these. arrangements . And will
12:29
12:29
12:29
Speaker 1
-
Speaker 1
The financial mechanism. It won't be the UK taxpayer that is contributing to that. The Government of Gibraltar will be raising the money for that financial mechanism through its own taxpayer. resources and through contributions from some of the companies in the leading industries in Gibraltar who have indicated that they want to help us to populate the the what I might call the Gibraltar, UK, side of the fund, which will be used exclusively for the. purposes of training people in Gibraltar job market or for the Gibraltar job market in Gibraltar or.
around Gibraltar. We think this is a good way of ensuring that we continue to have the. The the people. necessary for our job market to continue to flourish and grow. To give you another statistic, when I was first elected as Chief Minister, the number of Cross-frontier workers was in the region of.
around Gibraltar. We think this is a good way of ensuring that we continue to have the. The the people. necessary for our job market to continue to flourish and grow. To give you another statistic, when I was first elected as Chief Minister, the number of Cross-frontier workers was in the region of.
12:30
12:30
12:30
12:30
12:31
12:31
12:31
12:31
12:31
Lord Barrow
-
-
Lord Barrow
Thank you. Barry. Thank you very much. And it's a pleasure to see you, Chief Minister and other colleagues. If I could just turn to the debate within Gibraltar, if I can call it that. So the agreement was unanimously endorsed in March this year by. parliamentarians I in Gibraltar. I wonder if you could tell us a little bit about what in particular was welcomed and if there were any.
12:31
12:31
12:31
12:31
12:31
Speaker 1
-
Speaker 1
Protects Gibraltar's position. Well, it's a pleasure to see you. A veteran of the Gibraltar trenches in Brussels from 2018. Thank you for all your help in getting us here. We haven't had a withdrawal agreement clause on Gibraltar. We probably wouldn't have got on to a New Year's Eve agreement and the treaty. So I think it would be unfair for me to set out the. concerns of my fellow.
parliamentarians on the opposition benches in in the Gibraltar Parliament. But the Hansard of the Gibraltar Parliament is published in respect of that debate, which set out both the. concerns of parliamentary colleagues in the . opposition and my response to those concerns. This is an. international arrangement . Between
parliamentarians on the opposition benches in in the Gibraltar Parliament. But the Hansard of the Gibraltar Parliament is published in respect of that debate, which set out both the. concerns of parliamentary colleagues in the . opposition and my response to those concerns. This is an. international arrangement . Between
12:32
12:32
Speaker 1
-
Speaker 1
Union, where Gibraltar and Spain have a negotiation. You can imagine that it is the fruit of compromise. I mean, as I've said on a number of occasions in Gibraltar, I didn't turn up. I didn't pitch up in Brussels to. negotiate the European Union, surrender to the people of Gibraltar. And so there are issues here which require compromise from a point of view of the key areas, that the Commission is the guardian of the treaties on.
There are key areas here, which of course were Spanish.
There are key areas here, which of course were Spanish.
12:33
12:33
Speaker 1
-
Speaker 1
Not related to sovereignty. There are key concerns of the United Kingdom and key concerns of Gibraltar which have. become this treaty. So I've described the treaty as imperfect. But you know exactly what we need to keep going forward as a community and with our sovereignty intact. I was very heartened to hear the leader of the opposition use the same. description in the last week as he reflected during our Gibraltar Day events on on our treaty.
So I think there is there's wide agreement and wide consensus in Gibraltar on that. Of course, there are some dissenting voices. Perish the thought that there were not. Otherwise we wouldn't be the vibrant democracy that we are. But to see a Parliament united in Gibraltar, we don't often unite on issues other than in defence of British sovereignty. United around this treaty, I think says a lot. Now the Concordat, as you rightly say, was the.
condition that the motion put by the government and the opposition together. made in order to ask the United . Kingdom to
So I think there is there's wide agreement and wide consensus in Gibraltar on that. Of course, there are some dissenting voices. Perish the thought that there were not. Otherwise we wouldn't be the vibrant democracy that we are. But to see a Parliament united in Gibraltar, we don't often unite on issues other than in defence of British sovereignty. United around this treaty, I think says a lot. Now the Concordat, as you rightly say, was the.
condition that the motion put by the government and the opposition together. made in order to ask the United . Kingdom to
12:34
12:34
Speaker 1
-
Speaker 1
the process of. ratification of the treaty. Why was that relevant? Well, because, as you know, you were involved in it. We had a concordat for the withdrawal agreement, where there was a chapter on Gibraltar and the United Kingdom and Gibraltar needed to know in respect of that chapter, who does what, who's responsible for what, who's going to put their hand in their pocket for what? So of course, there had to be in relation to a free standing treaty just in relation to Gibraltar, of course, a concordat that also set out, you know, what was going to be the responsibility of each of the parties, because it's a treaty.
These are UK. international legal obligations. Even though Gibraltar is going to discharge the lion's share of them at the.
These are UK. international legal obligations. Even though Gibraltar is going to discharge the lion's share of them at the.
12:34
12:34
Speaker 1
-
Speaker 1
At Gibraltar Frontier and in the. jurisdiction of Gibraltar, where. constitutionally we are the only entity empowered to discharge those functions. And so the concordat was always going to be important. The terms of the Concordat. There's also a letter which accompanies the final version of the Concordat from Steve Doherty and been scrutinised in Gibraltar. They've been found to be.
12:35
12:35
12:35
12:35
12:35
12:35
12:36
Baroness Ashton of Upholland
-
-
Baroness Ashton of Upholland
Can you just explain why you have to provisionally apply rather than fully apply? And you've said that this is. satisfactory in terms of how it's working out. And I agree with you in politics that's a very good result. But has anything emerged during this. period of the provisional. application that you'd like us to be aware of? Any issues or problems that perhaps .
We just
We just
12:36
12:36
Speaker 1
-
Speaker 1
take note of? Thank you, Baroness Ashton, for your continued interest in Gibraltar. We had an opportunity to to meet and discuss all things Gibraltar in in Cordoba. I seem to recall in the era before before Covid and and around Brexit. So thank you for your continued interest. I really do appreciate it. On behalf of those I represent. As you know, we've had a number of different deadlines for the. application of the new.
European entry and. exit rules, the E s the now infamous E during the course of the.
European entry and. exit rules, the E s the now infamous E during the course of the.
12:37
12:37
12:37
12:37
12:37
12:37
Speaker 1
-
Speaker 1
this year, the most recent deadline . And 90 days on, you know, even the discretion was to end, although we. understand solely from journalistic reporting that that. discretion of easing up on E. S may have been. extended in the past. 24 hours by the Commission. So for for Spain and for. Gibraltar and for the United Kingdom and the European Union, what we all wanted to do was to.
avoid people having to cross the land frontier.
avoid people having to cross the land frontier.
12:38
12:38
Speaker 1
-
Speaker 1
have to go through the E. S checks when those. Because if you think of Dover, where you're going in a car onto a boat here, you had literally thousands of vehicles crossing every day. So you'd have to have iPad E s for many of them, which would cause a huge tailback. However efficiently and with goodwill, you might be trying to do so, but we would have had reciprocal checks. We really would have snarled the whole thing up.
And our job as politicians is to make life easier for people, not harder. So we all were wanting to hit the date of, you know, before the. application of E. S we couldn't hit that date for ratification. So we.
And our job as politicians is to make life easier for people, not harder. So we all were wanting to hit the date of, you know, before the. application of E. S we couldn't hit that date for ratification. So we.
12:38
12:38
12:38
12:38
12:39
12:39
Speaker 1
-
Speaker 1
15th of December this year. And in terms of what we have seen in that period of provisional application. Well, look, I think we're doing a very good job in terms of how we deal with people entering via the airport and the port. We have. Sometimes when we have 4 or 5 aircraft arriving at once, some people who are. experiencing a delay, which is shorter than the delays that are being experienced at some other larger European airports.
But our airport is small. And so as we look to make the arrangements for the final. layout of what the airport will look like, I think we'll hope to, in liaison with Spanish colleagues, add more E. S booths so that when we have peak periods, we'll be able to deal with more of E. S enrollments by those who are not. residents in Gibraltar or of the European area.
And on customs issues. I think in the early days we found that there were, first of all, logistical traffic issues because, you know, never let something as complex as a treaty get in the way of a regional fair that is going to be set up just where the lorries have to do their. turnaround and is going to cause a longer queue. But also the new procedures, which are a little sticky, and we need to ensure that the best application of those new customs procedures is seen through, and that we haven't got.
But our airport is small. And so as we look to make the arrangements for the final. layout of what the airport will look like, I think we'll hope to, in liaison with Spanish colleagues, add more E. S booths so that when we have peak periods, we'll be able to deal with more of E. S enrollments by those who are not. residents in Gibraltar or of the European area.
And on customs issues. I think in the early days we found that there were, first of all, logistical traffic issues because, you know, never let something as complex as a treaty get in the way of a regional fair that is going to be set up just where the lorries have to do their. turnaround and is going to cause a longer queue. But also the new procedures, which are a little sticky, and we need to ensure that the best application of those new customs procedures is seen through, and that we haven't got.
12:40
12:40
Speaker 1
-
Speaker 1
Taking a different view on the European side of how the new procedures apply, we need a fixed procedure. I'm very pleased to hear Paul confirm, as we know , that the the working groups are in the process of being established so that the EU, UK working groups, which will involve. largely Spanish and Gibraltarian presence, will be able to resolve not just as we have at a practical level on the ground, but also perhaps in new.
protocols which will be the work product of those committees. The way that we'll go forward in the bits that have been stickier. But I'll give you a statistic. In the first couple of days, we've gone from about. 250 to 300 trucks a day coming into Gibraltar, to about. 100 to 150 trucks coming into Gibraltar. A lot of that was the traffic problem we were having because of the flare and people getting used to the new systems.
We're back up now to. 250 to 300 trucks a day. Things are working. People are still getting used to the new systems. There are better ways of doing some things. And we'll we'll finesse those in the days, weeks and months ahead. But I think that . We're
protocols which will be the work product of those committees. The way that we'll go forward in the bits that have been stickier. But I'll give you a statistic. In the first couple of days, we've gone from about. 250 to 300 trucks a day coming into Gibraltar, to about. 100 to 150 trucks coming into Gibraltar. A lot of that was the traffic problem we were having because of the flare and people getting used to the new systems.
We're back up now to. 250 to 300 trucks a day. Things are working. People are still getting used to the new systems. There are better ways of doing some things. And we'll we'll finesse those in the days, weeks and months ahead. But I think that . We're
12:41
12:41
12:41
12:41
12:42
12:42
12:42
12:42
12:42
12:42
Lord Tugendhat
-
-
Lord Tugendhat
12:42
12:42
12:42
Lord Tugendhat
-
-
Lord Tugendhat
And they. Their mortgages were with British banks in Gibraltar, and that indeed there were citizens of some other European. countries who also used the. facilities of British. branches in Gibraltar. So I ask, as a matter of interest, is that still the case to any great degree? And if it is, I imagine that inasmuch as it makes a difference. The treaty we're talking about.
12:43
12:43
Speaker 1
-
Speaker 1
those people as well. That that is no longer a discernible part of the business of Gibraltar, for example. I don't think that there are any banking institutions in Gibraltar now that offer banking to non-residents. And so most of the people who have property in the Costas around Gibraltar will have banking. arrangements and. mortgages with lending. institutions in Spain, or perhaps in the United Kingdom after Brexit, that became very, very, very difficult indeed.
So there are a few British institutions that now trade as British institutions in the European Union. That would usually be perhaps a British name, but the. European branch or the.
So there are a few British institutions that now trade as British institutions in the European Union. That would usually be perhaps a British name, but the. European branch or the.
12:44
12:44
Speaker 1
-
Speaker 1
That holds that name, that we'll be doing that banking business. What we see coming across the frontier today are. principally tourists who are arriving in the Spanish Costas and come to Gibraltar for a day or longer. We're seeing people who live in the area who want to come to Gibraltar to shop for British produce, insofar as that British produce can still make it into the European Union after Brexit and before the SPS agreement that we sincerely hope the United Kingdom will do as part of the.
I read today once again delayed further reset.
I read today once again delayed further reset.
12:44
12:44
Speaker 1
-
Speaker 1
But none of the the the sort of demographic that you describe now stand out. There's a lot of what what we call expats, British people who reside in the Costas who will be coming to Gibraltar principally to shop to see. Gibraltar and see a British Bobby. And if they want to stand on a on a red phone box. But . But
12:45
12:45
Lord Tugendhat
-
-
Lord Tugendhat
12:45
12:45
12:45
12:45
12:45
Speaker 1
-
Speaker 1
The issue is. settled and I think it should be regarded as settled even by the parties that are not presently in government. And what I. detect is that there's going to be a lot of rhetoric in an election year in Spain, for example, on Gibraltar, etc. but whether that rhetoric, if there is a change of government, would lead to a change of approach, I think is a matter that we will have to see develop.
Look, I'm never going to tell you that it's not. impossible that the issue could come back for re. litigation in the.
Look, I'm never going to tell you that it's not. impossible that the issue could come back for re. litigation in the.
12:46
12:46
Speaker 1
-
Speaker 1
But I think everybody is. happy with the imperfect. arrangements that have been done and that they should. continue to apply, because what they do is they give business. efficacy to the requirement of all of the relevant governments and. institutions to permit people to move fluidly from one territory to another. For all of the commercial and personal reasons that we might have set out. Look, the United Kingdom has reserved its position on sovereignty because it wanted to and we wanted to.
We would have insisted that's the case. So has Spain. Nothing has changed on the sovereignty issue. But of course, Gibraltar is not one moment setting aside its fight for the recognition of our right to. self-determination in Gibraltar, in the United Kingdom and in New York, where we're still on the list of. non-self-governing territories. And we need to come off of that list, something which is hotly disputed by Spain in New York.
So what I . Might
We would have insisted that's the case. So has Spain. Nothing has changed on the sovereignty issue. But of course, Gibraltar is not one moment setting aside its fight for the recognition of our right to. self-determination in Gibraltar, in the United Kingdom and in New York, where we're still on the list of. non-self-governing territories. And we need to come off of that list, something which is hotly disputed by Spain in New York.
So what I . Might
12:47
12:47
12:47
12:47
12:47
12:47
12:47
12:47
12:47
12:47
12:48
12:48
Lord Moynihan of Chelsea
-
-
Lord Moynihan of Chelsea
And we managed to get into Gibraltar, but were then unsure whether we'd be able to drive out of Gibraltar. And I think I think those. problems that in. 1964 were present have rumbled on a lot. So let us hope that you are right in your thought that this is going to be a very good settlement. And if I could offer a disclaimer to your rather earlier concerns about the things I said, I doubt that there's anybody in this room who isn't incredibly proud of Gibraltar's past and current achievements.
And there is, I think, in this country, I obviously I can't speak for everybody a real sense of bond and and closeness to Gibraltar and long may that continue. But but the concerns that you were talking about earlier and reverted to just now about sovereignty, and I think the UK has always been very. anxious to give. Gibraltar as much sovereignty. freedom as as is absolutely possible within the context of its being a British overseas territory.
And you address that yourself just now. And and you heard a previous witness tell us that. actually this deal. means that. Gibraltar will no longer be allowed to join the CPT. P in goods. So either we are going to have to get a carve out in our. negotiation with.
And there is, I think, in this country, I obviously I can't speak for everybody a real sense of bond and and closeness to Gibraltar and long may that continue. But but the concerns that you were talking about earlier and reverted to just now about sovereignty, and I think the UK has always been very. anxious to give. Gibraltar as much sovereignty. freedom as as is absolutely possible within the context of its being a British overseas territory.
And you address that yourself just now. And and you heard a previous witness tell us that. actually this deal. means that. Gibraltar will no longer be allowed to join the CPT. P in goods. So either we are going to have to get a carve out in our. negotiation with.
12:49
12:49
12:49
12:49
Lord Moynihan of Chelsea
-
-
Lord Moynihan of Chelsea
Our economy is only growing at the moment because of our. ability to step. outside a bunch of EU. regulations that are throttling growth over there. But because we're avoiding them, we're getting growth over here in AI and tech and other similar areas. So will you, as. Gibraltar be allowed to , or will you be controlled by the product parts or the product liability.
directive of the AI act as regards goods. products and of the Cyber Resilience Act, for example, there will probably be others because if so, getting back to the point of.
directive of the AI act as regards goods. products and of the Cyber Resilience Act, for example, there will probably be others because if so, getting back to the point of.
12:50
12:50
12:50
12:50
12:50
12:51
12:51
12:51
12:51
Speaker 1
-
Speaker 1
gates had been closed. But. But I do. recognise we may come to an area of disagreement between us in a moment, but I do. recognise that bond of friendship that unites us with all of the British people, you know. However, they might have voted in 2016. Our bonds go deeper than just membership and non membership of the European Union. That's the reality. You if you allow me a quick flourish, when the when the gates came down and I was asked by by Spanish journalists what we were going to do with the gates, I suggested that they might be taken to the cemetery where the Spanish dictator now lies, and laid on his coffin.
12:51
Speaker 1
-
Speaker 1
out and does any damage again. But. But I want to be very clear about what we've done, and I'm going to try and explain it philosophically for a moment and then come to the detail. What we have looked at is the reality that Gibraltar. geographically and therefore. physically is attached to Europe and therefore the things that move.
12:52
12:52
Speaker 1
-
Speaker 1
People and goods need to be able to to flow with Europe in a very fluid fashion. Note that I've never used in the time I've addressed you the concept of free movement, because the freedom of movement concept for people permits people the right of establishment. We haven't done that deal with the EU. We've only done a deal of fluidity of people and fluidity of goods and the things that move metaphysically. That is to say.
12:52
12:52
12:52
12:52
12:52
12:52
12:53
12:53
12:53
12:53
Speaker 1
-
Speaker 1
very little. interest in goods trade with the United States, with the Pacific region, etc., because first of all, Gibraltar is a very small market. We've never been involved in the. exportation of goods other than perhaps tobacco, but we didn't exactly cover ourselves in glory in that respect. So, I mean, what we want to be able to do is to continue to be able to grow in the only thing you can grow in the geography of.
12:53
12:53
Speaker 1
-
Speaker 1
Which is in services. And so we can have the Cptpp extended to us and services, we can have the Japan agreement extended to us in services and all of the other agreements. Morocco agreement, which is more relevant because it's our neighbour extended to us in. services we've never formed. Part of what you referred to earlier in question, my colleague Lord Wood of British trade policy, so to speak. In fact, I might say that it might have made for a very different Gibraltar if we had been included in British trade policy.
We were never considered, we were never consulted, we were never given a role in that respect, which is a pity. And I think, you know, it would be good if we could go back 50 years and change that, but we can't. And so I hope that. answers the . Question
We were never considered, we were never consulted, we were never given a role in that respect, which is a pity. And I think, you know, it would be good if we could go back 50 years and change that, but we can't. And so I hope that. answers the . Question
12:54
12:54
12:54
12:54
12:54
12:54
12:54
12:54
12:54
12:55
12:55
12:55
12:55
12:55
12:55
Speaker 1
-
Speaker 1
I would answer like this. We have chosen to. continue to grow in the services area, making the. compromise of not having in the. future any of the research that we have never had in respect of genetically modified organisms, because we have nowhere to grow . anything in Gibraltar. And, and we have chosen to make those. compromises in order to be able to continue to grow in the areas that we can grow.
We have not had since. 2016 the ability to bring to Gibraltar any fresh produce that is not able to enter the EU under the current arrangements for the UK, but I do hope that the United Kingdom government's reset with the European Union reaches a safe harbour and that it includes an SPS agreement, and that anything produced in the UK will be able to come into Gibraltar. Although it's very likely that in reaching those SPS.
We have not had since. 2016 the ability to bring to Gibraltar any fresh produce that is not able to enter the EU under the current arrangements for the UK, but I do hope that the United Kingdom government's reset with the European Union reaches a safe harbour and that it includes an SPS agreement, and that anything produced in the UK will be able to come into Gibraltar. Although it's very likely that in reaching those SPS.
12:56
12:56
12:56
12:56
12:56
12:56
12:56
Lord Stirrup
-
-
Lord Stirrup
Tragic for our economy. Thank you on that. On that note, Chief Minister, thank you very much indeed for sparing us your time today. It's been most helpful, and it will be an important. contribution to the House's. consideration of the treaty. I don't doubt I also pass my appreciation on to the team at your end for bearing with the various technological challenges we've had in setting up this link, but I'm delighted it's been successful.
12:57
12:57
12:57
12:57
12:57
12:57
12:57
12:57
12:57