National Resilience Committee
Monday 7th September 2026
Skip to latest contribution
This debate has concluded
(began 2 weeks, 6 days ago)
Watch LiveSkip to latest contribution
This debate has concluded
14:02
Baroness Coussins
-
-
Baroness Coussins
Well. Good afternoon. Thank you all very much for coming and spending the time to help us with this important inquiry. I should remind you that we're being broadcast live. It's a public session and that in a couple of days you will each receive a transcript of the session. So that's your opportunity to spot any minor errors that you want to correct or to, to spot any gaps where you wish you'd said something, but you didn't.
And you want to give a supplementary comments in in writing, unusually, we've got five of you on the panel today, so please don't repeat what somebody else has said if that if you can avoid it. Some questions I'm sure will be directed at either Mod or Fcdo. Others will welcome responses from both departments, but it's extremely helpful for us to have you. Have you both here? I think we've got you all for about an hour or so.
Is that right? Good. And we we heard from Mr. Johnson a few sessions ago already. So don't feel that you have to go over any ground that you gave us before, because we've got that on, on the record already. Thank you. Obviously, we've got a lot of questions to ask you, but if in your first answer, if each of you could just introduce yourself very briefly for the record, that would be helpful.
And I'll start, if I may, and turn to the minister first. My question is about the national conversation, a phrase that's on everybody's lips at the moment. And the Strategic Defence Review recommended that we have this national conversation on defence and security. What I would like to hear is, what will the government be doing to ensure that this does happen across the whole of society, and in particular, what will you do, or what plans have you already got to make sure that you engage young people in the conversation? We've gone out of our way to try and consult young people as well as part of our evidence gathering.
And I'm very I'm very aware that public attitude surveys on this whole topic have only thus far ever been with people aged 18 and above, and I think that I saw a flavour of what the government might be up against in this national conversation in the last couple of days, looking at a particular social media platform which had so far 1.5 million responses to the government recommendation, that's had a lot of publicity over the last few days about the need to to stockpile water and food in the face of the next phase of El Nino.
And it was quite striking to me that the overwhelming response from these million and a half young people on the social media platform was utter mockery, saying, oh, we don't believe a word of this. The government is hiding something. Why doesn't it tell us the truth? It's not extreme weather. They're preparing for war. Why don't they just come out with it? That's. That was a flavour of the response which has provoked my question about what will you do specifically for young people? But obviously, please tell us the broad context as well about how this national conversation is going to be conducted and planned.
And you want to give a supplementary comments in in writing, unusually, we've got five of you on the panel today, so please don't repeat what somebody else has said if that if you can avoid it. Some questions I'm sure will be directed at either Mod or Fcdo. Others will welcome responses from both departments, but it's extremely helpful for us to have you. Have you both here? I think we've got you all for about an hour or so.
Is that right? Good. And we we heard from Mr. Johnson a few sessions ago already. So don't feel that you have to go over any ground that you gave us before, because we've got that on, on the record already. Thank you. Obviously, we've got a lot of questions to ask you, but if in your first answer, if each of you could just introduce yourself very briefly for the record, that would be helpful.
And I'll start, if I may, and turn to the minister first. My question is about the national conversation, a phrase that's on everybody's lips at the moment. And the Strategic Defence Review recommended that we have this national conversation on defence and security. What I would like to hear is, what will the government be doing to ensure that this does happen across the whole of society, and in particular, what will you do, or what plans have you already got to make sure that you engage young people in the conversation? We've gone out of our way to try and consult young people as well as part of our evidence gathering.
And I'm very I'm very aware that public attitude surveys on this whole topic have only thus far ever been with people aged 18 and above, and I think that I saw a flavour of what the government might be up against in this national conversation in the last couple of days, looking at a particular social media platform which had so far 1.5 million responses to the government recommendation, that's had a lot of publicity over the last few days about the need to to stockpile water and food in the face of the next phase of El Nino.
And it was quite striking to me that the overwhelming response from these million and a half young people on the social media platform was utter mockery, saying, oh, we don't believe a word of this. The government is hiding something. Why doesn't it tell us the truth? It's not extreme weather. They're preparing for war. Why don't they just come out with it? That's. That was a flavour of the response which has provoked my question about what will you do specifically for young people? But obviously, please tell us the broad context as well about how this national conversation is going to be conducted and planned.
14:06
Speaker 1
-
Speaker 1
Yeah. So my name is Louise Jones. I'm the MP for North East Derbyshire and the Minister for Armed Forces. And thank you very much for doing this topic. It's something that's really close to my heart, and it's played a big role in me actually deciding to stand for election. For those who don't know, I spent a few years in the Army, and I think it was and has been clear for some time that we are facing challenges of the future.
That certainly been the first time that we've faced in my lifetime, and it's a whole different framing of the problem, certainly, that I was used to when I was growing up or indeed serving myself. And so I therefore have responsibility for the national conversation within the Ministry of Defence. As I'm sure you're very well aware, the overall responsibility lies with the Cabinet Office. But the Mod has a very, very important role to play as as the SDR, quite rightly noted, you know, I think national resilience is important for a number of different reasons.
Some of those are to do with the growing challenges posed by climate change, which we're all very aware of, particularly over the summer that we've had, for example, with wildfires. I think we also have challenges from underperforming areas of our infrastructure that pose challenges without any other actor. But more and more, we are aware of the threat posed by state and non-state hostile actors. And that's a whole range of risks and concerns that we have, ranging from non-state actors being the cyberspace land domain, you know, across all kinds of different domains.
And, and of course, the info domain. And just sort of I'll come to sort of your wider point about messaging to young people in a minute, because I think the info domain is, is a really key one to talk about. As you're aware, we have already begun a number of endeavours for the national conversation, but I think it's also probably fair to say we there's a lot more that we need to do, and I think our probably big muscle moves are still yet to come.
So we would have the launch of a big, big awareness campaign coming up in the next few months for defence ourselves. We have big, big exercise coming up next year, which will test a whole wide range of the MoD's resilience and reaction on a scale that we haven't seen for for a very long time, tied in with wider action as as part of NATO as well, of course, with the NATO exercise programme. I think just turning to the in particular, the the awareness campaign, I think this is an interesting one , because I tend to find that sometimes we can frame this conversation as we are introducing it, and we are bringing in a topic that most people haven't thought about, and we will react to it in a certain way.
But I think certainly from me speaking to my own constituents and to people that I come across as part of my ministerial duties, I think there's a lot of people out there who are in many ways further ahead than we are. They are very well aware of this growing concerns when it comes to hostile threat actors and to other challenges that we're facing. And they are waiting and expecting to see government taking decisive action on that.
And then I also think it's interesting, because this conversation has started in so many different corners of the internet, so many different places, so many different, you know, cafes and pubs that I think it is uniquely vulnerable to misinformation as well. And we can't be naive to the fact that it is will be exploited both, you know, on, on Facebook, on different platforms that we use and ones that we don't, you know, I don't use TikTok myself, but, you know, there's all these different platforms that are being used to, to help amplify misinformation and active disinformation.
And I think that underlines the importance of making sure that we have an awareness campaign that is loud enough, that is targeted enough at those different audiences that we are able to put forward the truth, the facts, not only to say to people, yes, you know, we need to focus on resilience in a way we haven't for a long time with some really basic things like, do you have water? You know, and this is something that is very useful in terms of just, you know, an average power outage.
It's important to be able to know you can rely on this. You know, I found myself the other day with a power cut and, you know, couldn't I, to my shame, didn't necessarily have what I needed to do just to make the next day relatively comfortable. So just simple resilience that everybody needs to have in the back of their heads. But when we look at those narratives, I have also been shocked when I've been speaking to people where they've said, you know, they've raised rumours that they've heard online about what this means or what it doesn't mean.
And it is quite shocking to hear some of that, because that isn't anything that has any basis in any, any actions that the government has done. So to come to your point about young people specifically, I think there's two points here. From the MoD's perspective, we have a role to play, particularly through our cadet organisation. As you'll be aware, we have ambitions to expand the cadet program to not only expand current units, but make sure we have more units, particularly in schools or in places that aren't well served by those cadet units.
And they just provide a really kind of trusted organisation for those young people where we can have trusted message carriers, if you like, to, to deliver their. I think, of course, it would be a wider challenge across government. And that's why this is a whole of government approach. There's really important work that has to be done both by the Cabinet Office. You know, anywhere that's got touch point with young people education being an obvious one.
And I think it's not just about what we're saying, but who is saying it. Again, it's about having trusted message carriers. The Mod has a big role to play there. You know, I think we have very authoritative voices in defence when we talk about threats and very trusted voices, and we have to make sure, make sure that we are using them, because I think disinformation and misinformation isn't just being targeted at the young. I think it's definitely being targeted across all age groups, and these things are a constant fight.
That certainly been the first time that we've faced in my lifetime, and it's a whole different framing of the problem, certainly, that I was used to when I was growing up or indeed serving myself. And so I therefore have responsibility for the national conversation within the Ministry of Defence. As I'm sure you're very well aware, the overall responsibility lies with the Cabinet Office. But the Mod has a very, very important role to play as as the SDR, quite rightly noted, you know, I think national resilience is important for a number of different reasons.
Some of those are to do with the growing challenges posed by climate change, which we're all very aware of, particularly over the summer that we've had, for example, with wildfires. I think we also have challenges from underperforming areas of our infrastructure that pose challenges without any other actor. But more and more, we are aware of the threat posed by state and non-state hostile actors. And that's a whole range of risks and concerns that we have, ranging from non-state actors being the cyberspace land domain, you know, across all kinds of different domains.
And, and of course, the info domain. And just sort of I'll come to sort of your wider point about messaging to young people in a minute, because I think the info domain is, is a really key one to talk about. As you're aware, we have already begun a number of endeavours for the national conversation, but I think it's also probably fair to say we there's a lot more that we need to do, and I think our probably big muscle moves are still yet to come.
So we would have the launch of a big, big awareness campaign coming up in the next few months for defence ourselves. We have big, big exercise coming up next year, which will test a whole wide range of the MoD's resilience and reaction on a scale that we haven't seen for for a very long time, tied in with wider action as as part of NATO as well, of course, with the NATO exercise programme. I think just turning to the in particular, the the awareness campaign, I think this is an interesting one , because I tend to find that sometimes we can frame this conversation as we are introducing it, and we are bringing in a topic that most people haven't thought about, and we will react to it in a certain way.
But I think certainly from me speaking to my own constituents and to people that I come across as part of my ministerial duties, I think there's a lot of people out there who are in many ways further ahead than we are. They are very well aware of this growing concerns when it comes to hostile threat actors and to other challenges that we're facing. And they are waiting and expecting to see government taking decisive action on that.
And then I also think it's interesting, because this conversation has started in so many different corners of the internet, so many different places, so many different, you know, cafes and pubs that I think it is uniquely vulnerable to misinformation as well. And we can't be naive to the fact that it is will be exploited both, you know, on, on Facebook, on different platforms that we use and ones that we don't, you know, I don't use TikTok myself, but, you know, there's all these different platforms that are being used to, to help amplify misinformation and active disinformation.
And I think that underlines the importance of making sure that we have an awareness campaign that is loud enough, that is targeted enough at those different audiences that we are able to put forward the truth, the facts, not only to say to people, yes, you know, we need to focus on resilience in a way we haven't for a long time with some really basic things like, do you have water? You know, and this is something that is very useful in terms of just, you know, an average power outage.
It's important to be able to know you can rely on this. You know, I found myself the other day with a power cut and, you know, couldn't I, to my shame, didn't necessarily have what I needed to do just to make the next day relatively comfortable. So just simple resilience that everybody needs to have in the back of their heads. But when we look at those narratives, I have also been shocked when I've been speaking to people where they've said, you know, they've raised rumours that they've heard online about what this means or what it doesn't mean.
And it is quite shocking to hear some of that, because that isn't anything that has any basis in any, any actions that the government has done. So to come to your point about young people specifically, I think there's two points here. From the MoD's perspective, we have a role to play, particularly through our cadet organisation. As you'll be aware, we have ambitions to expand the cadet program to not only expand current units, but make sure we have more units, particularly in schools or in places that aren't well served by those cadet units.
And they just provide a really kind of trusted organisation for those young people where we can have trusted message carriers, if you like, to, to deliver their. I think, of course, it would be a wider challenge across government. And that's why this is a whole of government approach. There's really important work that has to be done both by the Cabinet Office. You know, anywhere that's got touch point with young people education being an obvious one.
And I think it's not just about what we're saying, but who is saying it. Again, it's about having trusted message carriers. The Mod has a big role to play there. You know, I think we have very authoritative voices in defence when we talk about threats and very trusted voices, and we have to make sure, make sure that we are using them, because I think disinformation and misinformation isn't just being targeted at the young. I think it's definitely being targeted across all age groups, and these things are a constant fight.
14:12
Baroness Coussins
-
-
Baroness Coussins
Thank you. Very encouraging to hear you say that the whole of government, as well as the whole of society, is very important in this exercise. Can I just see if there's anything to add from Mod colleagues on this? No. And what about Fcdo? Do you envisage a role for the Fcdo in this national conversation? Yes, indeed. And I sorry, I should say I'm Ben Fender, I'm the director for Defence and international Security.
Look, I would say actually for years we have been calling out the kinds of behaviour that Russia and other threat actors have been up to in the UK and elsewhere. And that I think we see as an important part of this national conversation. And it can be as long ago as the Salisbury chemical attacks to, you know, what happened in Leipzig just a few weeks ago. So I think, you know, the Foreign Office's role is often to be commenting and acting on what hostile powers are doing, more than necessarily communicating to the UK public, which is obviously an area where the Cabinet Office has slightly more responsibility.
But absolutely, we want to make sure those things are joined up. And I would say we are also very conscious in this, that the messages that we give our own population are also heard by adversaries, and what we say to our adversaries are also heard by our own population. And one of the things we have been working quite hard on recently is to make sure that all parts of government get the tone right in how we talk about, for example, hostile Russian behaviour so that we do not undermine deterrence, but rather rather add to it.
So absolutely, yes, this is definitely a conversation we're part of. Thank you, Lord Spellar did you have a supplementary before Lord farmer comes in with the next question?
Look, I would say actually for years we have been calling out the kinds of behaviour that Russia and other threat actors have been up to in the UK and elsewhere. And that I think we see as an important part of this national conversation. And it can be as long ago as the Salisbury chemical attacks to, you know, what happened in Leipzig just a few weeks ago. So I think, you know, the Foreign Office's role is often to be commenting and acting on what hostile powers are doing, more than necessarily communicating to the UK public, which is obviously an area where the Cabinet Office has slightly more responsibility.
But absolutely, we want to make sure those things are joined up. And I would say we are also very conscious in this, that the messages that we give our own population are also heard by adversaries, and what we say to our adversaries are also heard by our own population. And one of the things we have been working quite hard on recently is to make sure that all parts of government get the tone right in how we talk about, for example, hostile Russian behaviour so that we do not undermine deterrence, but rather rather add to it.
So absolutely, yes, this is definitely a conversation we're part of. Thank you, Lord Spellar did you have a supplementary before Lord farmer comes in with the next question?
14:14
Lord Spellar
-
-
Lord Spellar
Yes, because what I'm trying to I fully understand the analysis of the problem, and I think I absolutely accept the point from the Foreign Office that they've been quite good at, at rebutting some some of the lines, what I'm unclear about is whether there is anywhere in government that is pulling this together in the way that our firstly, our adversaries do. Russia's been doing it for a century. China. You've got the United Front organizations and all the rest of it pumping that out around, around, around the world.
To what extent are we are we are we doing that? And also, by the way, we used to be rather good at that during the period of the Cold War. And I'm not clear that we have maintained any of that machinery for firstly deciding what the line is, and secondly, for actually then expressing it in ordinary terms in order to in order to develop a campaign in order that people understand what's the threat here, but also in a in a wider international context, is there a centre which is actually doing this job?
To what extent are we are we are we doing that? And also, by the way, we used to be rather good at that during the period of the Cold War. And I'm not clear that we have maintained any of that machinery for firstly deciding what the line is, and secondly, for actually then expressing it in ordinary terms in order to in order to develop a campaign in order that people understand what's the threat here, but also in a in a wider international context, is there a centre which is actually doing this job?
14:15
14:15
14:15
14:15
14:16
Lord Spellar
-
-
Lord Spellar
Just saying it's the Cabinet Office doesn't because they've got so much responsibility all over the place. And I'm not clear exactly how that operates does seem to me. There needs to be interaction and engagement, and that needs to be driving it out, rather than just being a coordination of the good efforts of different departments.
14:16
Speaker 1
-
Speaker 1
Yeah, and I would agree it needs a needs real heft being put behind it, because I do think this is taking it to a level that we have frankly, got out of being used to doing. I think that's probably fair to say. I couldn't comment on where we were at the Cold War, but certainly I feel what we're looking for is to be much more ambitious than we were, you know, five, ten years ago. And certainly I see that as my role.
You know, as I said at the beginning, this is something that's really, really important to me. It's my role is to to make sure that we, as the Mod are making sure that we're underlying the need and the impetus for this. I appreciate that. I appreciate what you've said about the Cabinet Office, but I do think that I can see those wheels that are turning to to grip this and take it to the next level.
Obviously, we've been through a period of change, but I certainly think when we're having discussions about the the threats as we understand them, I feel reassured that we are going to get there.
You know, as I said at the beginning, this is something that's really, really important to me. It's my role is to to make sure that we, as the Mod are making sure that we're underlying the need and the impetus for this. I appreciate that. I appreciate what you've said about the Cabinet Office, but I do think that I can see those wheels that are turning to to grip this and take it to the next level.
Obviously, we've been through a period of change, but I certainly think when we're having discussions about the the threats as we understand them, I feel reassured that we are going to get there.
14:17
Lord Spellar
-
-
Lord Spellar
You see, you referenced what we did in Cold War. We the Foreign Office had the Information Research Department set up by Ernest Ernest Bevin. Controversial maybe, but actually very effective. And Denis Healey was one of the driving forces within within that department, we had a centre of gravity within the system that was that was driving, driving that on. I don't detect any of that. Yes.
14:17
Baroness Coussins
-
-
Baroness Coussins
Can I just add a word on that? I mean, one of the big moves that the Foreign Office has made in the restructuring that we're doing at the moment is to create a hybrid threats directorate, because we recognised that this is an area that needs significantly more resource, and it is doing that in a way where we are trying to bring together in one place what we know and are doing on these very serious issues.
To your point about cross-government, I would say that from where I sit, this is a very active and regular effort. So communications directors meet very, very regularly on this agenda. The Deputy national security adviser convenes people to talk about hybrid threats on a very regular basis. So it's an active coordination. But what I would also say is that certainly my department is, is investing very heavily in this. And indeed, it's probably the area where we are seeing one of the greatest amounts of increase in resource and focus here in London.
Yes. Lady Paul.
To your point about cross-government, I would say that from where I sit, this is a very active and regular effort. So communications directors meet very, very regularly on this agenda. The Deputy national security adviser convenes people to talk about hybrid threats on a very regular basis. So it's an active coordination. But what I would also say is that certainly my department is, is investing very heavily in this. And indeed, it's probably the area where we are seeing one of the greatest amounts of increase in resource and focus here in London.
Yes. Lady Paul.
14:18
Baroness Paul of Shepherd's Bush
-
-
Baroness Paul of Shepherd's Bush
Mine is very simple question. I'm very interested in this coordinated effort across government. Who's in charge, which department, which part is in charge of that, of that of convening those meetings, making that happen. Because one of our concerns is very clear or transparent about where the responsibility lies for things. So you're having meetings whose meetings are they.
14:19
14:19
14:19
Lord Farmer
-
-
Lord Farmer
Thank you, chair, and thank you for coming. Minister, today I just want to touch on nuclear risks. This committee hasn't really touched on nuclear risks. We were advised by the National Preparedness Preparedness Commission that they were in a catastrophic, catastrophic category, but emphasized a very low estimated likelihood. And that a nuclear accident or major overseas radiation release was estimated at less than 0.2%, probably over five years. And that's probably, to my mind, how the public see it as well.
So really, what are the reasonable worst case scenarios for civil and military nuclear risks? And how are these perceived by the public and and how should we educate them about it?
So really, what are the reasonable worst case scenarios for civil and military nuclear risks? And how are these perceived by the public and and how should we educate them about it?
14:20
14:20
Speaker 1
-
Speaker 1
Yeah. So there's a whole wider range of risks to do with military, civil nuclear that are kept under continual review, be that as a result of an accident or some sort of deliberate activity. And they are continuing under review. Certainly, the safety and security of the nuclear capabilities that we are responsible for, a huge deal of effort goes into ensuring that they are as safe as possible, and every risk is mitigated.
14:20
14:21
14:21
14:21
Baroness Coussins
-
-
Baroness Coussins
Oh. I might point maybe to a couple of examples from Russia's aggression against Ukraine, where we've had both rhetorical threats from Putin about nuclear use. But we've also seen and even in the last few days, you know, some concerns about the situation at the Zaporizhzhia nuclear power station in in Ukraine. There's obviously been a lot on the latter. For example, a lot of planning across government as to what that would mean and an effort in our communication on it to make sure that there is sort of good information out there, but also not undue concern about it.
On Putin's nuclear rhetoric. We are a keen to make sure that that is seen for what it is, i.e., an attempt at coercion more than actual threats of nuclear use. And we don't think it's the right thing for, you know, there to be, as it were, excessive nuclear rhetoric between the nuclear powers about about such scenarios. So we have, again, tried to be sober in responding to it, but also pointing out what the agenda is, which is an attempt to scare, monger and coerce rather than, we believe, an actual intent to use nuclear weapons.
Thank you. Lord Oates has the next question.
On Putin's nuclear rhetoric. We are a keen to make sure that that is seen for what it is, i.e., an attempt at coercion more than actual threats of nuclear use. And we don't think it's the right thing for, you know, there to be, as it were, excessive nuclear rhetoric between the nuclear powers about about such scenarios. So we have, again, tried to be sober in responding to it, but also pointing out what the agenda is, which is an attempt to scare, monger and coerce rather than, we believe, an actual intent to use nuclear weapons.
Thank you. Lord Oates has the next question.
14:23
Lord Oates
-
-
Lord Oates
Thanks very much. Good afternoon. Thanks for coming in to give us evidence. My question is in two parts, really. But in the interest of time, I'll ask them both together so you can pick through who to answer which. The first part is whether you can tell us how the government is addressing the international nature of the threat environment through multilateral cooperation, including with our European partners, and then specifically on the overseas territories.
What risks do you see as applying, particularly to the overseas territories, and how could those risks affect or create wider risks for the UK?
What risks do you see as applying, particularly to the overseas territories, and how could those risks affect or create wider risks for the UK?
14:24
Speaker 1
-
Speaker 1
So if I could, I'll briefly address that. So. The nature of many of the threats that we face absolutely does not respect any borders. And international cooperation is absolutely vital to to face any number of challenges and threats, be they military or not in nature. And so working with partners and allies to understand the nature of those threats and then be able to cooperate in ways to mitigate, prevent or deal with currencies is hugely important.
As you are aware, we have the NATO first policy in defence, which does not mean NATO only. It just means NATO first. And we are continually looking at ways to deepen our partnerships with our partners in NATO, be that working as part of NATO, be that bilateral arrangements. You know, we have, for example, strong agreement with Norway , lunar House, how we can work more closely together there and through things like the. Jeff.
So which is a subset of NATO countries, this is a huge priority for us. You know, when you look at the risks that the Mod can identify, many of those will only be dealt with satisfactorily as part of a of a wider partnership. And I think we saw in Ankara this year the commitments that was made to building a stronger Europe and a stronger NATO. You know, I can point to a whole other number of partnerships we're trying to deepen, but I won't just to save time and then just quickly on to the overseas territories.
And I'll let my colleagues sort of talk, talk in more, more depth than those. I think the risks that they face can vary quite greatly, certainly vary quite greatly with with the rest of the UK. And in some areas , we'll perhaps face greater challenges from climate based risks. So, for example, we obviously play a big role in hurricane season in the Caribbean. And I think it's just really important to make sure that we have that risk understanding per each territory and being able to adjust what we need to have accordingly.
As you are aware, we have the NATO first policy in defence, which does not mean NATO only. It just means NATO first. And we are continually looking at ways to deepen our partnerships with our partners in NATO, be that working as part of NATO, be that bilateral arrangements. You know, we have, for example, strong agreement with Norway , lunar House, how we can work more closely together there and through things like the. Jeff.
So which is a subset of NATO countries, this is a huge priority for us. You know, when you look at the risks that the Mod can identify, many of those will only be dealt with satisfactorily as part of a of a wider partnership. And I think we saw in Ankara this year the commitments that was made to building a stronger Europe and a stronger NATO. You know, I can point to a whole other number of partnerships we're trying to deepen, but I won't just to save time and then just quickly on to the overseas territories.
And I'll let my colleagues sort of talk, talk in more, more depth than those. I think the risks that they face can vary quite greatly, certainly vary quite greatly with with the rest of the UK. And in some areas , we'll perhaps face greater challenges from climate based risks. So, for example, we obviously play a big role in hurricane season in the Caribbean. And I think it's just really important to make sure that we have that risk understanding per each territory and being able to adjust what we need to have accordingly.
14:26
14:26
Speaker 2
-
Speaker 2
Absolutely. Thank you. Robbie Bullock. I'm the director for UK Overseas Territories, Polar regions and as of today also the ocean. So it's quite a broad remit. I would just come in in support of that. I mean, first of all, we're talking I understand about the risks, but I just wanted to put on the record. I mean, the relationship that we have with the UK overseas territories is fantastic for for the territories and for the UK.
I mean, it gives us global reach. It gives us strategic advantage. They are home to many of the world's largest financial centres, 94% of the UK's biodiversity is to be found across across the overseas territories. And that's why, on balance, I think actually managing those risks is well within the national interest. As a minister have said, because of the location of the territories, many are very remote. The climate risks are large. We work very closely with the overseas territories, governments in terms of building that resilience ahead and during hurricane season, in particular across the Caribbean and Bermuda, but also working with some of the even more remote territories such as Tristan da Cunha, Saint Helena and Pitcairn Islands in terms of helping them to respond to any climate emergencies.
And a very good example of that was earlier this year. You probably all heard about the hantavirus that spread through five of the territories, actually, and we work very closely. The Mod played an absolutely critical role in terms of delivering aid where it was needed to inhabitants of a very remote territory. There are, of course, economic risks as well. I've mentioned that there are four territories which house significant financial centres. So actually making sure there's resilience there, both in terms of the normal economic resilience, but also cyber security is an area where the UK can can help play a convening role.
And then of course, there's the defence and security relationship, where the UK is responsible for all the inhabited territories, where it's responsible for taking a role there as well.
I mean, it gives us global reach. It gives us strategic advantage. They are home to many of the world's largest financial centres, 94% of the UK's biodiversity is to be found across across the overseas territories. And that's why, on balance, I think actually managing those risks is well within the national interest. As a minister have said, because of the location of the territories, many are very remote. The climate risks are large. We work very closely with the overseas territories, governments in terms of building that resilience ahead and during hurricane season, in particular across the Caribbean and Bermuda, but also working with some of the even more remote territories such as Tristan da Cunha, Saint Helena and Pitcairn Islands in terms of helping them to respond to any climate emergencies.
And a very good example of that was earlier this year. You probably all heard about the hantavirus that spread through five of the territories, actually, and we work very closely. The Mod played an absolutely critical role in terms of delivering aid where it was needed to inhabitants of a very remote territory. There are, of course, economic risks as well. I've mentioned that there are four territories which house significant financial centres. So actually making sure there's resilience there, both in terms of the normal economic resilience, but also cyber security is an area where the UK can can help play a convening role.
And then of course, there's the defence and security relationship, where the UK is responsible for all the inhabited territories, where it's responsible for taking a role there as well.
14:28
14:28
Lord Oates
-
-
Lord Oates
Just very briefly, you you specifically mentioned the financial centres has been a significant benefit, although you said there were some risks around that. But I mean, what about the risks of those financial centres themselves being used by hostile actors and also the reputational risk to the UK around the world?
14:29
Speaker 2
-
Speaker 2
Absolutely. Both of those are absolutely concerns, and that's why we've been working very hard with the territories, including registers of beneficial ownership, that we make sure that there is transparency in terms of who is investing and how they're investing, but also that we work with them to ensure that their domestic regimes are secure against cyber and other hostile actors.
14:29
14:29
Baroness Helic
-
-
Baroness Helic
Thank you, chair, and thank you, Minister, and the panel. My question relates to UK's government approach to international frameworks that have been adopted or are being adopted by UN and EU. How do you assess it and are they divergences and are they alignments with what they have produced? Anything that we can learn from them?
14:29
Speaker 1
-
Speaker 1
So again, this sort of comes back to my earlier point about how we absolutely recognise that these resilience challenges will will take a lot of international cooperation, both within Europe and across the globe. And we do actively engage with partners at the UN, NATO or bilaterally to share those lessons and best practice. And certainly that's been a focal point of certainly, my international activity is has been through the lens of resilience. You know, we we work with NATO on civil preparedness and continuity of government and critical national infrastructure and all of those because we recognise the importance of that, how it underpins, and how we will need to work together, particularly when that resilience might get tested.
We are regularly reviewing lessons, both from exercises or contingencies that we face here in the UK, but we also do regularly reach out to international partners to make sure that we've got the right approach to our own resilience, and that we are taking the best practice from around the globe.
We are regularly reviewing lessons, both from exercises or contingencies that we face here in the UK, but we also do regularly reach out to international partners to make sure that we've got the right approach to our own resilience, and that we are taking the best practice from around the globe.
14:31
14:31
Lord Marland
-
-
Lord Marland
I want to go back to overseas territories, and I declare an interest as Chairman of Commonwealth Enterprise and Investment Council, and I travel quite extensively amongst some of the OTS. I mean, I think you're painting an over rosy picture. There are tensions. There is a view amongst many of the OTS that if there was a violent issue or immigration issue, that the UK would be very slow in responding to that in terms of its armed forces capability.
And we're you know, there's a P and Q in a minute on the Falkland Islands, which would be quite a case in point of how you respond to that. And if you read some parts of the media, they say, we haven't got a chance, we haven't got the capability. And if you read others that we have. So I'd just like to push you further on that. And particularly in relationship to immigration issues.
Haitian Immigration's moving into some of the Caribbean dependencies.
And we're you know, there's a P and Q in a minute on the Falkland Islands, which would be quite a case in point of how you respond to that. And if you read some parts of the media, they say, we haven't got a chance, we haven't got the capability. And if you read others that we have. So I'd just like to push you further on that. And particularly in relationship to immigration issues.
Haitian Immigration's moving into some of the Caribbean dependencies.
14:32
14:32
Lord Marland
-
-
Lord Marland
My point was sorry that if as Cayman Islands, for example, has a potential very big onslaught of illegal immigrants coming to the country, they have they don't have the defence mechanism for it and would rely on the UK and the UK, I don't think responded very, very positively to the last incident they had.
14:32
Speaker 2
-
Speaker 2
I mean, you mentioned Cayman specifically. I can tell you that we are working closely with the with the Cayman government through our governors, as each of the territories has a governor who is answerable to the OT government, but also, of course, to the king. We have a large security program that we run from my directorate in the Foreign Office, which helps to to support all of these kinds of things. And our Minister for the Overseas Territories, Cameron, is in the Turks and Caicos Islands today.
And one of the things that she's been talking about is indeed the threat of illegal migration from Haiti. I am not trying to underestimate the scale of the challenge, or how easy it would be for us to step in, to help, to respond. But this is a partnership, and we do work both in terms of upskilling the the OT ability to respond themselves, as well as coming in to support if there should be a catastrophic failure.
And one of the things that she's been talking about is indeed the threat of illegal migration from Haiti. I am not trying to underestimate the scale of the challenge, or how easy it would be for us to step in, to help, to respond. But this is a partnership, and we do work both in terms of upskilling the the OT ability to respond themselves, as well as coming in to support if there should be a catastrophic failure.
14:33
14:34
Lord Peach
-
-
Lord Peach
Thank you. And thank you, Minister, for coming and the rest of the team. So my question is really about NATO and how we're going to meet the trajectory we've agreed at summits, various, not least recently in Ankara and specifically noting the nature of this committee, the 1.5% additional to defence spending on security and resilience. And I declare my interest as president of UK reserves and cadets, and I will add reserves.
14:34
14:34
Speaker 1
-
Speaker 1
So you'll be very well aware of the commitments that we have made to meet our NATO commitments to to reach 5%, of which 3.5% will be on core defense spend and 1.5%, as you know, on related expenditure. And I hope you forgive me for saying the path to that will be set out at the next spending review, which will include the date by which we would reach 3% or core defence and would set out to get to the overall target in due course.
14:35
14:35
14:35
14:35
14:35
Speaker 1
-
Speaker 1
Yes. So there's kind of two lines of effort there. One is looking to expand within the resources that we have the volunteer reserves. But a second, I think most crucially, is the role of the strategic reserve. Again, this is a part of the reserves, which has been certainly a lot less used in my lifetime. And I say this to declare I am a member of the strategic reserve myself.
And certainly when I left the Army and found out I was in the strategic Reserve, just filed it away, I never thought about it again. We are definitely no longer in that. In that space reserve is a real commitment for those that are in it, and they will be exercised as part of our exercise programme next year, where we will go through measures to to call out and to use and equip and and all the rest of the procedures we'd have to go through to be able to use the strategic reserve properly.
And as I'm sure you're very well aware, you'll have seen some of the changes as well coming through in legislation as well around the strategic reserve. Certainly, we need to be looking at that as a real step change with strategic reserve than we we were doing ten years ago.
And certainly when I left the Army and found out I was in the strategic Reserve, just filed it away, I never thought about it again. We are definitely no longer in that. In that space reserve is a real commitment for those that are in it, and they will be exercised as part of our exercise programme next year, where we will go through measures to to call out and to use and equip and and all the rest of the procedures we'd have to go through to be able to use the strategic reserve properly.
And as I'm sure you're very well aware, you'll have seen some of the changes as well coming through in legislation as well around the strategic reserve. Certainly, we need to be looking at that as a real step change with strategic reserve than we we were doing ten years ago.
14:36
Lord Peach
-
-
Lord Peach
Thank you for that. And of course, under NATO article three, there are. NATO sets out the resilience requirements. And we've we've covered that with a number of other witnesses over the course of our work. But specifically, do you think civil preparedness and resilience get enough clarity? And if you. For example, we've recently visited Finland. We spent a lot of time with the Scandinavian ambassadors.
Filling is in the middle, has just finished the biggest civil defence exercise anyone has ever held since the end of the Cold War. And we are noticing through our work a thirst for some form of structure for civil defence. I'm not suggesting it's got a form and a shape yet, but I don't think civil defence is is going to go away as a thought. And how we structure ourselves for it, I think is a question.
Filling is in the middle, has just finished the biggest civil defence exercise anyone has ever held since the end of the Cold War. And we are noticing through our work a thirst for some form of structure for civil defence. I'm not suggesting it's got a form and a shape yet, but I don't think civil defence is is going to go away as a thought. And how we structure ourselves for it, I think is a question.
14:37
14:37
Baroness Coussins
-
-
Baroness Coussins
We've had evidence that suggests that the government should publish its performance on complying with this NATO seven baseline commitments on civilian resilience and and incorporate any identified shortcomings into the national resilience assessment. What would be your response to that to publishing performance in compliance?
14:38
14:38
Speaker 3
-
Speaker 3
We well, we yeah, we publish a general update on our capabilities that we're planning to build in response to the National Risk Register. I mean, I think it would be a choice for government about how much we, with the transparency agenda, clearly want to be as transparent as possible . At the same time, without undermining and exposing some vulnerabilities that the government wouldn't want to give to its adversaries. I think there's always a there's always a balance to be struck.
14:38
14:38
14:38
Baroness Paul of Shepherd's Bush
-
-
Baroness Paul of Shepherd's Bush
Hopefully, this is a straightforward question. And like my colleagues, I'm delighted that you're here. When will the Defence Readiness Bill be laid before Parliament, and how will it define the role of key actors, including industry operators of critical national infrastructure and local government? And just to repeat that kind of little phrase that's running through quite a lot of what we're and set out responsibility and leadership.
14:39
Speaker 1
-
Speaker 1
Yeah. So Defence Readiness Bill was a really key recommendation in the SDR. Couldn't agree more. And we are committed to delivering this legislation within this Parliament. As you know, we have to bring forward legislation in line with the legislative process when parliamentary time allows. But I will underline how important, certainly I see this legislation, and obviously, we've already begun work on it. We're looking at measures about defending, improving our ability to defend against subthreshold threats, as you would expect, looking at improving resilience both within government and across industry , and how we can ensure protection of our critical national infrastructure.
And indeed, to come back to the point, how we can improve our mobilization of strategic strategic reserve. We're obviously working across government on this . As as as you will appreciate, a lot of this is wider than the mod. And we will, of course, consult with key stakeholders outside of government as well.
And indeed, to come back to the point, how we can improve our mobilization of strategic strategic reserve. We're obviously working across government on this . As as as you will appreciate, a lot of this is wider than the mod. And we will, of course, consult with key stakeholders outside of government as well.
14:40
14:40
14:40
14:40
14:40
14:40
14:41
14:41
Baroness Northover
-
-
Baroness Northover
Thank you. And we've touched on this a little bit at the very beginning. But the question is how the government will ensure that there's clear responsibility across different departments for delivering home defence, including in the event of conflict , and as well as how you ensure that you've got the leadership there. How do you make sure that all of this is joined up? Again, we've just come back from Finland.
It's very striking that every ministry has has somebody who's got responsibility for security, and that all of these people are then joined up in a committee, which involves others as well. So you can see the coordination. You can see every ministry having to think about this, but you've also got to make sure that you've got the appropriate leadership and in place in terms of who takes the key responsibility in certain areas. So I wondered if you might be able to address that.
It's very striking that every ministry has has somebody who's got responsibility for security, and that all of these people are then joined up in a committee, which involves others as well. So you can see the coordination. You can see every ministry having to think about this, but you've also got to make sure that you've got the appropriate leadership and in place in terms of who takes the key responsibility in certain areas. So I wondered if you might be able to address that.
14:42
Speaker 1
-
Speaker 1
So yeah, I mean, you know, we obviously have the Cabinet Office playing its its part as, as I'm sure we've spoken about before, and they do have the home defence programme, which is designed to do just that to identify, you know, progress these measures across government, across all departments, because it really does include every department. And indeed we are sort of accelerating the updating of the war books, which are the crisis plans which we will exercise next year as part of our shadow.
And again, you know, point to that pointing to the National Conversation Awareness plan that should be coming later this year. I think there are some really big muscle moves which show that across government, we are starting on that journey to, to, to get to that level of coordination, you know, that we would expect to see with the level of the risks that we face.
And again, you know, point to that pointing to the National Conversation Awareness plan that should be coming later this year. I think there are some really big muscle moves which show that across government, we are starting on that journey to, to, to get to that level of coordination, you know, that we would expect to see with the level of the risks that we face.
14:43
14:43
Speaker 1
-
Speaker 1
Yeah. And I think that's a that's a really interesting point. Certainly one I'm going to be taking back. Yeah, certainly from from my perspective, you know, we have a clear lead in the mod in me. And I know that each department will certainly be thinking about this. And, you know, the representatives at the meetings that I've been at so far, I think, you know, being able to take us to the next level is probably positive.
Yeah.
Yeah.
14:43
Baroness Coussins
-
-
Baroness Coussins
One of the submissions of written evidence that we received pointed out that one of the things that falls within the remit of the Fcdo is what's called the civil stabilisation groups, including the Deployable Civilian Experts Network. I'd never heard of either of these before. And so I'd really like you to tell me more about them, whether they still exist, whether they're how they're kept up to date, and how civilian experts would be deployed in an emergency.
I might have to come back to you on that. It isn't my directorate. I can tell you how it used to work, which is and it may still work this way. So when we had the cross-government stabilisation unit, there was indeed a register of experts in certain areas, and they could be deployed forward to deal with crises. Various. So, for example, in the past tense. Indeed. And that's what I would need to check that it is.
I think it does still exist, but I would need to check that we would welcome some supplementary evidence in writing on that, please. That would be very helpful, because it sounds as if it's something that would be useful. Yes, and I would I would say that, you know, there are a variety of initiatives in this area specifically to deal with resilience challenges. So, for example, NATO, as Lord peach knows well, has its counter hybrid support teams.
You know, there is there is a , you know, in terms of the work that goes on across government on defending democracy. You know, we have had experts, you know, go forward to other countries. So it's very much a sort of live thought, but I would need to get back to you on exactly whether that register still exists in the same way. Be very helpful. Thank you. Lady Hunter, you had the next question.
I might have to come back to you on that. It isn't my directorate. I can tell you how it used to work, which is and it may still work this way. So when we had the cross-government stabilisation unit, there was indeed a register of experts in certain areas, and they could be deployed forward to deal with crises. Various. So, for example, in the past tense. Indeed. And that's what I would need to check that it is.
I think it does still exist, but I would need to check that we would welcome some supplementary evidence in writing on that, please. That would be very helpful, because it sounds as if it's something that would be useful. Yes, and I would I would say that, you know, there are a variety of initiatives in this area specifically to deal with resilience challenges. So, for example, NATO, as Lord peach knows well, has its counter hybrid support teams.
You know, there is there is a , you know, in terms of the work that goes on across government on defending democracy. You know, we have had experts, you know, go forward to other countries. So it's very much a sort of live thought, but I would need to get back to you on exactly whether that register still exists in the same way. Be very helpful. Thank you. Lady Hunter, you had the next question.
14:45
Baroness Hunter of Auchenreoch
-
-
Baroness Hunter of Auchenreoch
Yes. Thank you all very much for coming as well. We have been told by the Cabinet Office and others about the Military gap Year scheme. I think it's going to be devised and facilitated between the Mod and DWP, and it's just going to give young people a taste of military life. I mean, I instinctively think this is a brilliant idea. So I would just appreciate we we all would, you know, just a bit more information about it and its progress where, where we are with it.
Yeah.
Yeah.
14:45
Speaker 1
-
Speaker 1
So this is still in its first year of running. So essentially it's, it's roughly a year commitment for, for, for a young person to make into the Army or the Navy. And what they do is very dependent on different services where they'll do some training and then they will hopefully be able to get some good experiences in, in, in the wider military. And they will effectively be just like any other recruit or person in their first year of service.
At the end of that first year, they can then decide if they would like to stay, transition to the reserves or leave altogether. They have they have that right or move into one of the other services depending on what they would like to do. And this is in its very first phase, and it's certainly being taken forward as we learn lessons from each each phase about what what works best and how we can make sure it's a meaningful experience, whilst also meaning that people are conducting activity in line with what they've been trained to do, as I'm sure you'll appreciate.
You know, we have we have other measures as well, like partnership with the DWP to help provide young people in search of careers so that they fully understand what a military career might offer to them. And then, of course, we have the cadets work that we've also briefly spoken about as well.
At the end of that first year, they can then decide if they would like to stay, transition to the reserves or leave altogether. They have they have that right or move into one of the other services depending on what they would like to do. And this is in its very first phase, and it's certainly being taken forward as we learn lessons from each each phase about what what works best and how we can make sure it's a meaningful experience, whilst also meaning that people are conducting activity in line with what they've been trained to do, as I'm sure you'll appreciate.
You know, we have we have other measures as well, like partnership with the DWP to help provide young people in search of careers so that they fully understand what a military career might offer to them. And then, of course, we have the cadets work that we've also briefly spoken about as well.
14:47
14:47
Speaker 5
-
Speaker 5
On military gap year, other than, sorry, Brigadier Ben Halstead, I'm the head of counter adversary strategy in Home Defence. And other than the fact that I did one when under the old Short Service Limited Commission scheme some time ago before joining, I'm not involved in in the work around this one, but my own . My own experience on reflection was seeing warts and all. Mine was in the Army, so seeing warts and all, what service life was like, what the challenges there for you were, was part of the reason that I joined, and I wasn't put on this panel to give you a puff, puff, puff piece on it.
It's just the it gives you some exposure. And provided we are showing, I think, you know, honestly what people would experience, which is what I got. And I wanted to get a bit more of that. And I think the scheme then was even if you don't want to come back, you leave with a better appreciation of what those people do, which is also a positive.
It's just the it gives you some exposure. And provided we are showing, I think, you know, honestly what people would experience, which is what I got. And I wanted to get a bit more of that. And I think the scheme then was even if you don't want to come back, you leave with a better appreciation of what those people do, which is also a positive.
14:48
14:48
14:48
14:48
14:48
Speaker 1
-
Speaker 1
And yeah, within the balance of practicality about training, estate, etc., etc. for sure. I think it's also important to note that, you know, for, for, for most roles in the military, it's relatively short minimum commitment anyway of three years or whatever. And I think we should also be making more of that, you know, for the length of a university degree. You know, it's not a huge commitment to sign up to. And certainly, I do think the military has a role to play in combating NEETs, as you say.
And I think cadets are hugely, hugely powerful tool in doing that. Certainly, I think expanding cadets in schools would would have a measurable impact on the stats, for sure.
And I think cadets are hugely, hugely powerful tool in doing that. Certainly, I think expanding cadets in schools would would have a measurable impact on the stats, for sure.
14:49
14:49
Lord Oates
-
-
Lord Oates
Just very briefly, since the end of conscription in France, I understand they have a National Defence Day every year in which there's a touch point with, I think, all 18 year olds, so that they can explain the opportunities, what the armed forces are doing, what the opportunities are in them. I just wondered because often people aren't necessarily aware of I mean, there's obviously a good advertising campaign going on at the moment, but often they're not necessarily aware of the opportunities.
Have you looked at the French scheme and considered whether that might be relevant?
Have you looked at the French scheme and considered whether that might be relevant?
14:49
Speaker 1
-
Speaker 1
You mean the day, if you like. Yeah, not specifically at that, but certain certain similar measures. And, you know, obviously we have Armed Forces Week and perhaps we could do more around that. For example, we have. National Cadets Week coming up, which isn't about the armed joining the armed forces, but but nonetheless raises the profile of the wider military family. And you know, what should be the the conversations to be having with young people with, with school leavers.
And that's why I think up till now, we've sort of focused on going through the DWP or sort of traditional recruitment, but we are constantly asking ourselves, how can we, you know, improve the offer? Because I certainly believe in, you know, I had a great time in the military and I think the opportunities it gives are fantastic, particularly to people who may not have many opportunities where they are. So the more we can do to highlight that, I think would only be a positive thing.
And that's why I think up till now, we've sort of focused on going through the DWP or sort of traditional recruitment, but we are constantly asking ourselves, how can we, you know, improve the offer? Because I certainly believe in, you know, I had a great time in the military and I think the opportunities it gives are fantastic, particularly to people who may not have many opportunities where they are. So the more we can do to highlight that, I think would only be a positive thing.
14:50
14:50
Baroness Mobarik
-
-
Baroness Mobarik
Thank you very much. Good to see you. Thank you for coming. My question is probably for the minister and perhaps the brigadier. Should the government invest in sovereign launch capability to ensure assured access to space and resilient satellite communications for defence and and reduce our strategic dependence on us launch infrastructure when circumstances require it?
14:51
Speaker 1
-
Speaker 1
Yeah, and I think space is becoming an ever more important part. I think the SDR recognised that assured launch access to space is obviously a really, really important part of that. And that's why we're carrying on with our support. As I'm sure you're well aware, to the development of Saxa Vord in Shetland, which hopefully will have its first launch soon. Having that assured launch really underpins sort of wider UK security. But we will continue to sort of assess the risks and threats and vulnerabilities to make sure that we are using the most effective service to give value for money, and also to give the resilience to that service that we will need.
And of course, we would consider UK based launches as part of that.
And of course, we would consider UK based launches as part of that.
14:52
14:52
Speaker 1
-
Speaker 1
Yeah. And I think this comes back to assessing the risk versus reward, just to make sure we're making effective use of our resources. Spaces are very expensive endeavors. I'm sure you'll appreciate, you know, as always, we need to be looking at what redundancy that is. And again, not necessarily just looking at it through the lens of a UK assured launch, but Europe, NATO wider than that. But I do take your point,
14:52
14:52
Lord Farmer
-
-
Lord Farmer
Add just briefly on turning this on its head a little bit? In fact, it sort of applies in all areas. We we seem to look at things from the defence point of view. In other words, we have nasty characters, plot planning to do nasty things to us. And what are we going to do to defend ourselves? One hears very little about our attack capabilities and in fact, the one the ones you read in the media says that our army isn't up to it and our jets aren't up to it.
And in fact, we aren't able to retaliate. And I mean, coming to the satellite point of view, if our satellites were attacked by I'm not quite sure you attack them with lasers or something like that. Do we have the capability to do the opposite to the enemy?
And in fact, we aren't able to retaliate. And I mean, coming to the satellite point of view, if our satellites were attacked by I'm not quite sure you attack them with lasers or something like that. Do we have the capability to do the opposite to the enemy?
14:53
14:53
14:53
14:53
14:54
14:54
14:54
14:54