Thursday 31st October 2024
(1 month, 3 weeks ago)
Public Bill CommitteesRenters' Rights Bill 2024-26 View all Renters' Rights Bill 2024-26 Debates Read Hansard Text Amendment Paper: Public Bill Committee Amendments as at 31 October 2024 - (31 Oct 2024)
The Chair
With this it will be convenient to discuss the following:
Clauses 33 to 38 stand part.
Amendment 78, in clause 39, page 47, line 3, at end insert—
“(6A) On recovering a financial penalty imposed under this section, a local housing authority shall pay 20% of the recovered penalty to the person who was the subject of the discrimination.
(6B) Where the person who was the subject of the discrimination complains to the relevant landlord redress scheme about the same discriminatory behaviour, the scheme provider shall take into account any sum paid or payable to that person under subsection (6A) in assessing any further award of compensation which the relevant person is directed to pay to that person under the scheme.”
This amendment provides a mechanism for a complainant to receive a portion of the financial penalty imposed by a local housing authority as compensation for being discriminated against.
Clauses 39 to 41 stand part.
Amendment 79, in schedule 5, page 207, line 31, leave out—
“Where” and insert “Subject to section 39(6A), where”.
See Amendment 78.
Matthew Pennycook
It is an absolute pleasure, Mr Betts, to continue our consideration of the Bill with you in the Chair, not least because you will have extensive knowledge of what we are talking about as we proceed through the clauses.
Before we proceed to the substantive matter, I draw the Committee’s attention to the letter that I sent the Chair this morning, responding to the various technical questions put to me in the previous sitting. I hope that Members find my responses useful. I look forward to continuing this co-operative approach as we debate the remaining clauses.
David Simmonds (Ruislip, Northwood and Pinner) (Con)
I put on the record my thanks to the Minister for the prompt and detailed response to the points made. We had a brief discussion this morning about a small omission involving, for example, school caretakers or NHS staff who are provided with accommodation on site as part of their employment. I am grateful that the Minister has undertaken to respond to that, too, in due course.
Matthew Pennycook
I will indeed respond to that specific point in the extensive future correspondence that I expect to have with the shadow Minister, given his form in previous sittings.
Having considered assured tenancies and tenancies that cannot be assured tenancies in our third and fourth sittings on Tuesday, we now turn to chapter 3 of part 1 of the Bill, which concerns discrimination in the rental market in England. The Government are determined to make it unlawful for landlords and agents acting on their behalf to engage in discriminatory conduct against tenants with children or those in receipt of benefits. The case for prohibiting such conduct is indisputable.
Not only should all renters be treated fairly in their search for a place to call home as a point of principle, but the changing nature of the private rented sector, and the fact that it now contains increasing numbers of families and those in receipt of housing support, make it imperative that the Government act in this area. Individuals in receipt of benefits or who have children should have the opportunity to be considered for a tenancy on their own circumstances, rather than rejected straight away under a blanket policy.
The problem that this part of the Bill attempts to resolve is that a blanket ban of the kind we are considering is already contrary to the Property Ombudsman’s code of practice, and already almost certainly unlawful by virtue of the premises provisions in the Equality Act 2010, which provide for a prohibition against discrimination in the letting, managing or dispensing of premises. However, despite a number of court rulings confirming that rejecting a tenant’s application because of benefit status or family circumstances is a breach, proving discrimination is incredibly difficult. As a result, despite a growing body of case law, it remains fairly common for landlords to refuse to allow benefit claimants or those with children to view an affordable property, or to consider them as a potential tenant, and for properties to be advertised with restrictions such as “No DSS”, “No benefits” and “No kids”.
Discriminatory conduct of this kind is constantly evolving and is therefore difficult to adapt to. For example, following landmark rulings that a “No DSS” policy is unlawful as it indirectly discriminates, explicit “No DSS” adverts morphed into more subtle forms of messaging with the same intent, such as specifying “Working professionals only”. The question is, therefore, how we best ensure that the underlying discrimination in this area does not occur in practice.
During consideration of the previous Government’s Renters (Reform) Bill, I challenged the then Minister, the former Member for Redcar, to specify through regulations behaviour that for the purposes of the Equality Act 2010 should be considered unlawful discrimination unless the contrary is shown. In other words, my suggestion to the Minister at the time was that the onus should be placed on landlords to convince a court that a ban had no discriminatory impact. In developing the Renters’ Rights Bill I considered carefully whether that approach would be the most effective way to try to bear down on the problem of discriminatory conduct against tenants with children or who receive benefits. I ultimately concluded that it would not, both because it would have entailed a complex reform of the Equality Act, and because it would require tenants themselves to bring costly civil litigation to seek redress.
Jerome Mayhew (Broadland and Fakenham) (Con)
The Minister identified other legislation that already make discrimination illegal, and went on to make the point that proving discrimination is very difficult, so my question is twofold. First, if we have already outlawed that kind of behaviour, why do we need further legislation to do exactly the same thing? Secondly, if we do require further legislation, how is the evidential burden going to be passed more easily under this clause than has been the experience under previous provisions?
Matthew Pennycook
I thank the hon. Gentleman for his two reasonable questions; I will come on to answer them both in my remarks. If he feels that I have not sufficiently explained the matter, I am more than happy to give way to him again, but I will address both those points. The first I have already touched on: despite it almost certainly being unlawful under the Equality Act, discriminatory conduct of the kind that we are trying to bear down on happens fairly routinely, so it is evident to the Government that the existing legislation does not allow us to bear down on the problem effectively in practice. We think the Bill’s provisions will allow us to do so. I will pick up the hon. Gentleman’s point about the evidential burden and how local authorities make that judgment in due course.
In contrast to the approach on which I challenged the then Minister in the previous Parliament, the advantage of the approach taken in the Bill is that, first, responsibility for enforcement lies with local authorities and not tenants, and secondly, breaches can be addressed relatively easily, in the English context, via a civil offence with a lower burden of proof than a criminal one.
Clauses 32 and 33 directly and expressly prohibit discriminatory bans and restrictions on the letting of private rented sector properties on the basis that children would live with or visit a person at the property, or to persons in receipt of benefits. They also prohibit any conduct that might otherwise effectively constitute such bans or restrictions. In other words, the provisions are intended to deal with both direct and more subtle forms of discrimination. It is important to note that landlords and agents will continue to have the final say on who they let their property to, and they will be able to continue to carry out referencing checks to make sure that tenancies are sustainable for both parties.
It is also the case, as clause 40 makes clear, that nothing in this chapter will prevent landlords from making a final decision based on an objective and fair assessment of whether the prospective tenant can afford the rent, nor will it force landlords into entering into unsustainable tenancies. The majority of landlords—those who already act fairly and conscientiously and treat applicants equally, assessing their suitability on a case-by-case basis—have absolutely nothing to fear as a result of the introduction of the new rental discrimination framework.
Jerome Mayhew
The Minister made reference to the burden of proof under the clause being the civil burden, and compared that to the Equality Act. I just had a quick look at that Act—I stand to be corrected because it was a very brief look—and the burden under that Act appears to be a civil burden and also one where the maxim res ipsa loquitur can be applied. If that is the case, what is the difference between the burden of proof in this clause and that of the Equality Act?
Matthew Pennycook
If I have understood correctly, the hon. Gentleman is challenging me on the burden of proof. I will say two things: first, who is the actor in charge of enforcement? It is for local authorities to make a judgment on whether the burden of proof has been met. That is a key difference. On the legal point, I am more than happy to come back to the hon. Gentleman in terms of how the burden applies in this case and whether it is any different from the provisions under the Equality Act, but we are talking about the provisions of the Bill and the most practical way to bear down on the problem. It is a difficult one to bear down on, as he will appreciate.
Landlords and related parties will be exempt from the prohibitions if the prohibition was necessary for the landlord to fulfil a restrictive term in an existing insurance contract that prohibits occupation by children or if a prohibition was a proportionate means of achieving a legitimate aim. The example we chose in the explanatory notes was a landlord reasonably refusing to rent a small bedroom in a house in multiple occupation to a women with two teenage children, in order to adhere to overcrowding regulations. However, in general terms the clauses will bear down on rental discrimination by ensuring that prospective tenants are considered on an individual basis rather than on the basis of whether they have children or are in receipt of benefits. To reassure Opposition Members, the provisions broadly mirror those in the previous Government’s Renters (Reform) Bill.
Clauses 34 to 37 merely nullify any discriminatory clauses relating to children and benefits in tenancy agreements, superior leases, mortgage deeds and insurance policies by rendering them unenforceable. As with clauses 32 and 33, exemptions apply for a prohibition if it is a proportionate means of achieving a legitimate aim.
It should be noted that while the mortgage and lease provisions set out in clauses 35 and 36 are retrospective, the insurance provisions set out in clause 37 are not. We have taken this approach because insurance contracts are renewed with greater frequency than mortgages and leases, so will naturally be updated to reflect the new requirements without necessitating immediate action or impacting existing insurance rates.
The provisions in this chapter of the Bill make it clear that rental discrimination against families with children or people who receive benefits has no place in a fair and modern housing market. We recognise, however, that we may need to extend the new protections to additional cohorts, if required in future. Clause 38 allows us to do so by way of regulations, subject to the affirmative procedure and following a consultation, provided that any new protections remain consistent with the existing framework.
For example, I have received representations from my hon. Friend the Member for Doncaster Central (Sally Jameson) to extend the rental discrimination provisions to care leavers. The Government feel strongly that the protections provided for by this chapter should be extended to additional cohorts only if there is sufficient evidence to suggest that is required. We do not yet have such evidence in the case of care leavers, but I intend to keep the matter closely under review. If we do need to look to extend discrimination protections to care leavers, we will. The powers in clause 38 will allow us to do so, as well as to respond promptly to any new acts of unlawful discrimination that may emerge in future.
Clause 39 gives local housing authorities the power to impose a financial penalty of £7,000 on a person if on the balance of probability—this directly addresses the question earlier from the hon. Member for Broadland and Fakenham—the local authority is satisfied that there has been a breach of a rental discrimination measure in this chapter. The penalties will be compounding for continuous or repeated breaches.
In summary, although we appreciate the inherent challenges in legislating to tackle rental discrimination, I believe that the measures in this chapter, set alongside strong communication and clear guidance, will see us make measurable progress towards ending discriminatory conduct against tenants with children or those in receipt of benefits. I commend them to the Committee.
Amendments 78 and 79, tabled in the name of the hon. Member for Bristol Central, would ensure that prospective tenants who report rental discrimination could receive a share of any financial penalty imposed on the landlord or letting agent. My assumption—the hon. Lady may well correct me—is that the intent of the amendments is to create an incentive for prospective tenants to complain to the relevant local authority where they consider they may have been a victim of such discrimination. That is an entirely worthy objective, and we do want tenants who find themselves in such circumstances to make a complaint to the relevant local council. We have placed a duty on local authorities to enforce the provisions when they have sufficient evidence to act. However, I cannot accept the amendments, for the following reasons. First, the idea of giving prospective tenants a cut of the civil penalty is wrong in principle. They are penalties imposed by a public body for breaking the law, not a mechanism for compensation.
Secondly, I worry about the potential impact on local government. Allowing a proportion of any such penalty to be allocated as compensation would undermine the principle that all civil penalty income must be ringfenced for enforcement activity in the private rented sector. Moreover, we would expect local authorities, including the hon. Lady’s, to take issue with surrendering part of a receipt that may, in practice, already not be enough to cover the costs of pursuing enforcement action. The arrangements necessary to facilitate such compensation would also add to the administrative burden on local authorities. Financial incentives might also create the risk that prospective tenants complain when it is not warranted and press local councils to propose civil penalties when the evidence is lacking.
Thirdly, there are likely to be practical difficulties in identifying who has been the subject of discrimination— for example, in instances where more than one tenant is involved. There would also be an administrative burden if the compensation were to be paid in instalments.
David Simmonds
The Opposition broadly support the clauses. I have some questions for the Minister, which are matters not of amendment but of clarification.
Clause 35 deals with tenancies where there may be restrictions on children either visiting or living in a property. There has been a significant increase in the number of retirement communities across the UK, and it is quite common for them to set out a condition— for example, that occupiers must be aged over 55. That housing supply is important, especially to encourage people who are under-occupying family homes to choose to move later in life to a retirement property that is designed and built specifically for that purpose. I seek assurance from the Government that while the clause effectively nullifies any restrictions on the ability for children to live in a property, bespoke retirement communities, constructed specifically with the needs of older people in mind, will not find it a problematic provision.
We support the Government’s position in clause 40, on taking income into account. It is clear that the purpose behind the previous voluntary codes, introduced under previous Conservative Governments, and under Labour Governments with the support of the Conservative Opposition, was to bear down on the practice of restricting benefit tenants from accessing private rented property. However, as the Minister clearly said, there is a requirement for referencing checks to be undertaken. Clause 40 specifically says that there will be no prohibition on taking income into account. There is clearly a risk of a loophole in the clause, given that the Bill does not clearly specify what is meant by referencing checks.
Landlords can use insurance to cover the risk of a loss of income where a tenant defaults on a rental payment. If the insurer says, “We consider the risk of anybody on benefits to be too high,” the landlord may say, “We do not directly discriminate, but our referencing check will always decline to provide insurance for an individual in those circumstances.” There is potentially the risk that benefit claimants will fall between two stools. Universal credit is flexible and provides a top-up on a person’s rental income, so they may eligible to receive the benefit but fall outside it for a period of time. We need to ensure that that is fully taken into account. I ask the Minister to clarify the position, perhaps in writing.
Finally, I have some points relating to the interaction of all the clauses. I previously raised the issue of people who have no recourse to public funds. They are not eligible to receive benefits but may be the beneficiary of an obligation on a local authority to provide support—for example, under the Children Act 1989 or previous housing legislation. It would be helpful to understand how the clauses will apply to that group of individuals. They are likely to be creditworthy and to apply for private rental on the basis that they have a job and an income. They are not eligible for the state benefits listed in the examples of benefits that are included. We therefore need to ensure that, so far as the Government intend, they fall within the ambit of the Bill.
There is a similar issue for care leavers, about which the Minister said he has received representations. The Children (Leaving Care) Act 2000 creates a set of obligations on local authorities to secure appropriate accommodation for care leavers as they enter adulthood. Although I understand the Government’s decision not to bring a specific category of care leavers within the scope of the legislation, those who are the beneficiaries of that obligation on behalf of somebody else will find themselves discriminated against not because of rights arising from their personal circumstances but because of the obligation to somebody else—in this case, that a statutory authority has to provide support for them.
Finally, we support the Government’s position on the amendments. Although I have complete sympathy with the point being raised, as the Minister does, there is clearly a risk that what is intended to be a matter of criminal law—discrimination against an individual, whereby a court can make an order for compensation—is mixed up with a civil penalty that is designed to ensure that landlords pay appropriately.
The Minister is correct, but he may need to provide total clarity for the sake of parliamentary proceedings that a local authority will use that civil penalty in the same way as would apply if it were dealing with an issue of fly-tipping, littering or environmental nuisance, as opposed to having to prove to a criminal standard that discrimination is taking place. As those two things are different, they need to be handled differently in the way that the legislation addresses them, as my hon. Friend the Member for Broadland and Fakenham alluded to.
Matthew Pennycook
Let me address that group of questions, which are well understood and well made. I will respond to each in turn.
I think the shadow Minister may have got the clause wrong, because clause 35 deals specifically with superior leases and ensuring they are not enforceable. However, I take his point about what is usually older people’s bespoke accommodation. I am sure that we would all welcome children visiting those sorts of accommodation. I will provide a specific written answer to confirm this position, but I would expect a provider to argue that refusing tenants living with children in such a block would be a proportionate means of achieving a legitimate aim and would therefore be appropriately accommodated within the legislation.
On clause 40, the Bill will allow landlords to check if a tenant has sufficient income to ensure that they can afford to pay for a tenancy and it is sustainable. The shadow Minister made the point again, as he did in the evidence sessions, about insurance and referencing checks. I will give him a specific answer as to whether particular referencing checks or insurance products will, as a matter of course—I think this was his point—rule out universal credit applicants as tenants who can afford to pay. I do not necessarily think that that should be the case, but if it is, I will give it due consideration.
David Simmonds
It is helpful to have this conversation with regard to insurance that covers the loss of rent and insurance that specifically requires the prohibition of a child living with tenants, as referred to by clause 35. Our concern is that although the Bill’s intention is to create a clear situation where there is no discrimination against a tenant with children who would be living with them or visiting them at the property, there is a risk of ambiguity if a landlord finds, for example, that they cannot gain any insurance or that the cost of insurance is prohibitive. They would then argue that they simply could not meet their obligations as a landlord if they were to allow tenants with children who live at or visit the property. We need to therefore bring clarity so that we do not leave a loophole through the insurance market that effectively nullifies the intended impact of the legislation.
Matthew Pennycook
I appreciate and understand that point, and the shadow Minister is right to say that we need to bring the requisite level of clarity in this area. He has asked a series of questions in Committee on insurance products more generally and I will attempt to give him a more comprehensive answer in writing so that we can draw a line under some of his concerns.
The shadow Minister asked specifically about no recourse to public funds and care leavers, which again is a specific subset of issues that he is right to raise. I will come back to him on those as well.
On civil penalties and whether they can be proved, we have taken a different approach in the Bill from Scotland and Wales where the situation is different. While they seek to enforce discriminatory provisions through a criminal offence, we have deliberately taken the civil route because of the lower burden of proof required for local authorities, and the ease with which they will therefore be able to take enforcement action against cases of discrimination where they have sufficient evidence.
Matthew Pennycook
If I have answered the shadow Minister’s point, the hon. Gentleman can come in.
Jerome Mayhew
The Minister will be aware that, although there is a civil burden of proof under English and Welsh law, the level to which the courts hold that burden of proof varies substantially, depending on the nature of the tariff or the consequence of that finding. Given that councillors will be seeking to impose what looks quite like a criminal fine under clause 39—a fine of many thousands of pounds—is it the Minister’s understanding that, although the burden of proof required is civil, it will be a high hurdle when applied by the courts?
Matthew Pennycook
I do not think I would make that particular point. To expand further, we have taken this particular approach because we think there is a benefit provided by the burden of proof that local authorities are required to meet. It is also the case that making breaches of rental discrimination provisions a single civil matter in England is in line with our wider discrimination legislation, in the way that it is not in Scotland and Wales—we will come on to discuss those points.
It is worth noting that, where there is evidence, local authorities can take enforcement action against either the landlord or the letting agent, or indeed both, if the letting agent has been party to the breach, and they can face multiple fines. They are civil fines at the £7,000 level rather than the criminal fines found elsewhere in the Bill, which have a much higher threshold of £40,000. I hope that answers the point made by the hon. Member for Broadland and Fakenham. Again, if he writes to me, I am happy to give him a more detailed answer.
I hope that I have reassured the shadow Minister as to why we have taken this approach and that we have considered its impact on different cohorts. It is important that the power provided for in clause 38 is there. We will take it forward only very specifically, as I have said, after consultation and through the affirmative procedure, but we want to have it so that the system can to adapt to any new instances of discrimination that arise. To go back to the point that my hon. Friend the Member for Doncaster Central has put to me fairly frequently, if sufficient evidence is brought to us that shows that certain cohorts, be it care leavers or anyone else, are facing the type of discrimination we want to bear down on through the Bill, we can more easily add them and cover them with that power.
Carla Denyer (Bristol Central) (Green)
I will quickly clarify the comments made about my amendment 78 by the shadow Minister, and then I will discuss my amendment and answer some of the Minister’s points. If I heard correctly, the shadow Minister said that he did not support the amendment because it mixes up compensation with criminal penalties, but my understanding of the conversation that we have just had is that the clause uses civil law rather than criminal law, so that point does not stand—or have I misunderstood something?
Carla Denyer
I thank the hon. Lady for her question, which I will come to in a moment. I have considered the role of the ombudsman, but the point of amendment 78 is predominantly to incentivise tenants to engage with the enforcement of the local housing authority.
Given the seriousness and scale of discrimination, bold measures are required. Though I welcome the Bill’s intention to stamp out discrimination, the reforms will only be as effective as the enforcement that underpins them. Under the legislation, local authorities will remain dependent on prospective tenants reporting a breach in the first instance. Let us bear in mind that we are discussing discrimination before somebody becomes a tenant—it is discrimination in the advertising of a property—so the prospective tenant may well not have an incentive for pursuing it. Local authorities will be dependent on tenants reporting the breach in the first instance, maintaining a potentially lengthy co-operation with the local authority and assisting the inquiry all the way to its conclusion.
That is a real burden. A tenant who has been refused a tenancy will likely still be contending with the extremely pressing issue of where they are going to live—they may have just been served an eviction notice or they may have had to move out of their accommodation quickly for another reason. They are unlikely to have the time or energy to volunteer their services for free to the local authority in exchange for no benefit.
I want to address a point that the Minister made against the amendment. In the circumstances I mentioned, the chance of tenants falsely or speculatively submitting a complaint is pretty slim, because they will have pressures on their time. If the prospective tenant were to get a cut of the amount received by the local housing authority, that would be a good incentive for them to report discrimination to the local authority, and discriminatory landlords would begin to be rooted out.
Carla Denyer
Can I get to my next point? I suspect that I am about to answer the Minister’s question.
Matthew Pennycook
If the hon. Lady answers it, I apologise. I want to make two points. First, I understand her concern about tenants not having an incentive to take a complaint to the local authority. We want tenants to make legitimate complaints about rental discrimination, and I think that can be encouraged through Government messaging and guidance.
Secondly, one of the four concerns I expressed was about the impact on local authorities. Has the hon. Lady spoken to her own local authority to determine how comfortable it feels about losing £1,400 out of every £7,000 fine for a breach under this provision?
Carla Denyer
I will plough on, because I was indeed going to come to that issue.
First, however, I will address one of the Minister’s other points on the convergence of penalty and compensation principles. I understand his purpose in pointing out that these are not normally combined, but there is a precedent. Sharing the proceeds of a civil penalty between public bodies and the person on the end of the wrongdoing is a departure from the norm but, as I understand it, under section 214 of the Housing Act 2004, if a landlord has failed to comply with the tenancy deposit protection regulations, a court can award a tenant a sum of between one and three times the deposit they paid.
While there is no question in that legislation of sharing an award with the local authority, it is nevertheless an example of the convergence of penalty and compensation principles in a single move. Although deposit protection rules do not give us a blueprint for the proposal I put forward in amendments 78 and 79, they demonstrate that an acknowledgment elsewhere in housing law of the importance, proportionality and justification of restitution for tenants, which also serves as a form of deterrent and admonition for rule breaking, all in one go.
The Minister may be aware that I tabled an amendment to increase civil penalties for exactly the reason that he has highlighted: if the local authority is to share the proceeds with the tenant, the total amount should be higher to ensure that it covers the cost of the local authority taking on the enforcement. That amendment was not selected for debate, so I will not shoehorn in my comments on the subject, but since the Minister specifically asked me about it, I will make the case for increasing the total civil penalty. I proposed that it be increased to £15,000 so as to not harm the local authority’s ability to undertake enforcement activity, as well as to properly reflect the time and expertise involved in the local authority pursuing such cases. I think that addresses the concerns the Minister raised.
In conclusion, the tenant is the linchpin upon which a discrimination case such as this depends. On that basis, I believe that some form of financial compensation for the person on the end of the illegal treatment is fair and proportionate. They can pursue a case with the housing ombudsman case as well, and there is an argument for taking into account whether the tenant has received something through the housing ombudsman in determining what they receive in my proposed scheme, or vice versa, but the function of the two tools is different.
Sam Carling (North West Cambridgeshire) (Lab)
On the suggestion made by the hon. Member for Bristol Central, the civil penalty income is imposed by a public body as a punishment for breaking the law. There is a point of principle about whether it is right—whether there is a precedent—to give a contribution back to the tenant from that. It feels very unusual to me.
I have a brief question for the Minister; it may be that as a new Member of Parliament I am not used to this yet. Is it normal to specify the amount of the fine in primary legislation? Can that cause problems later in respect of needing to uprate it with inflation or anything like that?
Matthew Pennycook
On the point made by my hon. Friend the Member for North West Cambridgeshire, it is conventional to put the amount of the fine on the face of the Bill. There are provisions in the Bill that allow the Government to increase the fine to reflect the increase in inflation over time, so it is not a static, once-and-for-all £7,000 or £40,000 in the case of criminal offences.
On the point from the hon. Member for Bristol Central, I sympathise very much with the intent. We have to ensure that prospective tenants who face direct or more subtle forms of discrimination take a complaint to the local authority, but I have confidence that tenants will, and I have concerns about the approach she specifies. First, on a point of principle, the penalties are imposed by a public body for breaking the law. They are not a mechanism for compensation. It would be a departure from the norm, as she rightly appreciates.
My primary concern—I think the hon. Lady underestimates it even with the increased fee she proposes —is that there would be a significant impact on local authorities. They will take issue with losing 20% of the fine they can levy. I will check with her local authority after I leave the Committee as to whether they would be happy to lose that.
Matthew Pennycook
Let me develop this point; then the hon. Lady is more than welcome to come back on it. Even if the loss of 20% of the £7,000 were covered by an increased fine, there are good reasons why we do not think that the fine should be higher in the Bill. Setting that aside, we think there would be significant administrative burdens to overseeing a system that redistributes part of a fine issued and secured via the specified means through the local authority. Different arrangements would need to be put in place to facilitate that. Financial incentives might create the risk of tenants taking cases where there is not sufficient evidence to press local authorities to investigate.
We have already had extensive discussion on whether, through this Bill, local authorities will be able to effectively enforce, because of the resource pressures on them. We are committed to new burdens funding to ensure that they can. I think that putting additional administrative burdens on them in the way specified is the wrong approach. The hon. Lady did not address this point, but there are real practical difficulties in identifying who has been the subject of discrimination. In her example it is simple, with a single tenant, but in cases of multiple tenants, what is the proportion of the compensation to be paid?
I think the hon. Lady’s amendment references instalments and a subdivision of the amount compensated for. This would be an over-complication of the Bill’s provisions. I am confident that the provisions will work in the way intended and that tenants will take their cases to local authorities. There is a duty on local authorities to enforce the provisions. The approach I put to the previous Minister was to put the onus on tenants and to enforce through the Equality Act. We are taking that burden off tenants and placing it on local authorities, imposing on them a duty to investigate and take action in cases of such increases. For those reasons, I am afraid I cannot accept the hon. Lady’s amendments.
Carla Denyer
I have a few follow-up questions for the Minister based on what he just said. First, does he recognise that 20% of double the amount still leaves a significant increase for the local authority? He was talking about the local authority receiving a reduced amount, but losing 20% of double the amount still means a larger amount than previously.
Matthew Pennycook
If the hon. Lady will give way, I can address that point.
Carla Denyer
My next point relates, so the Minister can probably address them together.
Secondly, the Minister said there were good reasons why he had selected £7,000 specifically and not a few thousand above or below that. Will he expand on why £7,000 is the magic number?
Thirdly, I would like to understand the Minister’s view on how tenants will be incentivised to have the prolonged engagement with a local authority that would be necessary to see the process through to conclusion—with only a public information campaign?
Matthew Pennycook
First, what research has the hon. Lady done on the administrative burden on local authorities of subdividing the amounts of money they take in through breaches to give that 20%? It is easy to say, “Increase the amount and the 20% is covered,” but, as I have put to her, there would be significant additional administrative burdens from setting up the type of arrangements she wants to see.
Secondly, why does the hon. Lady think that under the arrangements in the Bill tenants will have to spend an inordinate amount of time co-operating with the local authority to enforce breaches? As I have said, the onus is on the local authority duty, under the legislation, to investigate. Tenants have to co-operate, but I do not see any circumstances where a huge amount of their time is spent on investigation and enforcement. That is for the local authority. Does the hon. Lady have any more insight on those two points?
Carla Denyer
I have not myself done the calculations and consultations on what that might take a local authority. However, the amendment is based on evidence provided by experts in the evidence gathering part of the Committee’s work. I am trying to get the written evidence up on my parliamentary laptop, which is not co-operating. Off the top of my head, I believe it was from Shelter—I will try to look in a moment, when I have sat down. I am sure Shelter has done the work, so I would be pleased to get back to the Minister on the details when I can lay my hands on them.
Apologies, but I have forgotten the second thing the Minister said.
Matthew Pennycook
I simply asked why the hon. Lady thinks the process set out in the Bill will require huge amounts of tenant energy and time to see the enforcement process through. As I said, there is a statutory duty on local authorities in the Bill to take the process through. We have put the onus on them, not tenants. I wonder why the hon. Lady assumes it will take lots of effort on the part of the tenants themselves to seek redress through the provisions that the Bill sets out.
Carla Denyer
Yes, I remember now that the Minister asked whether I expected the tenants to investigate. I do not expect the tenants themselves to investigate, but I expect that a level of ongoing engagement will be required, which would be onerous if they are trying to flat or house-hunt and move house at the same time. My experience as a councillor for nine years, and as an active citizen, is that it often requires several successive engagements with a local authority to get the desired outcome.
Matthew Pennycook
I will respond briefly because I have set out in some detail the Government’s view on the matter. If I can say so politely, there were a huge number of assumptions in there. There is an assumption that the tenant will have to spend inordinate amounts of time working with the local authority to enforce the provision. We do not want that to be the case. Tenants will have to engage, but the onus and duty is very much on local authorities to do the work.
The hon. Lady underestimates the amount of cost, time and resource that would fall on local authorities in terms of having to set up and administer a more complicated scheme to redistribute money. The ombudsman has powers in this area to investigate complaints. The provisions in the Bill are specifically targeted at ensuring that local authorities, through that civil offence procedure and that lower burden of proof, can take action to enforce. It is right that the fees set out in the Bill are ringfenced to local authorities to be able to enforce.
I sympathise with the objective that the hon. Lady is trying to achieve, and we want tenants to take cases to their local authorities, but her amendments are flawed. I do not think they are thought through, and they rest on a series of assumptions that I do not expect to see occur in practice. For that reason, we will resist them.
David Simmonds
Not that they need it, but the Government have our support in their stance on this issue.
The hon. Member for Bristol Central raises an important point. From my experience in local authorities, I know it is often extremely complicated when they seek to allocate or judge issues of compensation on civil penalties. For example, similar legislation applies in respect of environmental nuisance, and we know it is incredibly difficult to identify who has been a victim, how to quantify the level of harm they have suffered and then how to allocate an appropriate level of compensation.
Given the good will the Minister has shown on the issue, I hope there is scope for some further discussion to ensure that if there is a pattern of egregious behaviour by a specific landlord who is clearly discriminating against particular groups of people—we recognise that particularly in London there is often a high level of demand, and a tenant may visit a dozen or more properties to secure a tenancy—there is a means of providing some form of restitution for the waste of that person’s time as a result of that discrimination.
Matthew Pennycook
Can I make a further point, which I have made before but is clearly not registering? This is where we need to take a step back and look at which different parts of the Bill do what. The ombudsman can review each complaint on a case-by-case basis. Complaints can be about discrimination and the ombudsman has the powers to put things right, including by ordering the landlord to pay compensation or correct the behaviour in question. It is not that we do not think there is a case for the suggestion—we will come to the significantly strengthened rent repayment orders that we have included in the Bill—but that this is not the place for it. Clause 39 is a quite simple provision to allow local authorities to issue fines for breaches and to be able to keep that money to fund further enforcement activity. For that reason, we cannot support the amendments.
Question put and agreed to.
Clause 32 accordingly ordered to stand part of the Bill.
Clauses 33 to 41 ordered to stand part of the Bill.
The Chair
I should explain to the Committee why we have not considered amendment 79 for a decision at this stage. Although it was been debated as part of the group, it relates to a later part of the Bill. If it does require a vote, that will be done at a later stage. The way we do things can sometimes be a bit confusing, but that is the explanation as to why that particular amendment was not considered.
Clause 42
Discrimination relating to children or benefits status: Welsh language
Question proposed, That the clause stand part of the Bill.
Matthew Pennycook
I will be brief on this group of clauses, which simply provide for rental discrimination powers and prohibitions in Wales that mirror those in England, with minor adjustments made in order to fit them into existing housing offence enforcement procedures. The measures are broadly equivalent to chapter 3 of the Bill for England, which we have just discussed at length, with adjustments made to align with the existing Welsh enforcement framework.
As I have already mentioned, Wales is taking a criminal enforcement approach, while the same conduct is a civil breach in England. That reflects the private rented sector enforcement regime in Wales, where criminal offences are in line with other housing legislation. I commend the clauses to the Committee.
David Simmonds
As the Minister has outlined, this is a fairly straightforward translation. First, I presume the measures will require a legislative consent motion on the part of the Welsh Government, and ask the Minister to clarify that.
Secondly, in respect of the proceeds of the fines, it is clearly envisaged in England that it will be the local authority that carries out enforcement and that the revenue from the fines will finance that. If it is a criminal matter in Wales—a criminal enforcement regime—will the same rules apply? We briefly debated the issue of whether fines in a criminal matter would go into the consolidated fund, as is currently the case with criminal penalties, or directly to the local authority, in order to finance the enforcement regime; will the Minister clarify how the matter will be dealt with in Wales?
Matthew Pennycook
I thank the shadow Minister for those questions. There is a simple answer to the first: yes, it requires a legislative consent motion on the part of the Senedd to bring the measures into effect.
On the approach in Wales more broadly, as I said, it reflects the established private rented sector enforcement regime in Wales. There are a number of differences. The Welsh Government, and the Scottish Government, take the criminal offence path, rather than the civil one. What that means—this is one of the reasons why we determined to go with the civil offence approach in England—is that fines are capped at £1,000 in the Welsh and Scottish contexts, whereas under the approach in the Bill we can levy £7,000, and do so repeatedly if breaches are continuous and ongoing. That is why that is reflected.
On the consolidated fund point, as it applies to the Welsh Government, I am afraid I do not have the answer. I will more than happily get an answer to the hon. Gentleman in writing.
David Simmonds
What the Minister said in respect of the consolidated fund is very helpful. I posed the question because, under the Bill, we will create responsibilities for the local authority to be the enforcement body, which as I understand it will apply in Wales as well, but the decision to take the criminal route is a matter for the Senedd, which is not the local authority. Indeed, there is some tension in the relationship between the Senedd and local authorities. Clearly, if the income is going into a consolidated fund or to the Senedd, the risk is that the enforcement body given the duty under this legislation will not receive any of the financial income raised through enforcement action. I ask so that we are completely clear about where the legislation will stand in Wales once passed.
Matthew Pennycook
I understand that point and will get the shadow Minister a precise answer in writing. It is important for the Committee and the public to have clarity on precisely all the ways in which the enforcement is, and in some cases is not, aligned in the Welsh and English contexts. I will come back to him on that point.
Question put and agreed to.
Clause 42 accordingly ordered to stand part of the Bill.
Clauses 43 to 48 ordered to stand part of the Bill.
Clause 49
Discrimination relating to children or benefits status
Question proposed, That the clause stand part of the Bill.
Matthew Pennycook
I might pre-empt the shadow Minister by saying that in the written correspondence to which I have just committed, I will give him the same set of answers on the consolidated fund and the role of local authorities in the Scottish context.
Clauses 49 to 54 provide similar protections and prohibitions in Scotland regarding rental discrimination, albeit with different processes around the power to add protection to additional cohorts. That is different from the situation as it applies to Wales. Again, the measures are broadly equivalent to those for England in chapter 3, with adjustments made to align with the existing Scottish enforcement framework. In Scottish housing law, rental discrimination enforcement is in line with other criminal penalties, as it is in Wales. I commend the clauses to the Committee.
Question put and agreed to.
Clause 49 accordingly ordered to stand part of the Bill.
Clauses 50 to 54 ordered to stand part of the Bill.
Ordered, That further consideration be now adjourned. —(Gen Kitchen.)