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Oliver Ryan (Burnley) (Lab/Co-op)
I greatly appreciate this opportunity to engage in a significant debate about the implementation of the LGBT veterans independent review. The review not only acknowledges the historical injustices faced by our LGBT veterans, but also brings to light the ongoing barriers, insecurities and inequalities they experience, underscoring the urgent need for reform, support and compensation.
There has been plenty of interest in the debate and I am pleased to see the Lord Commissioner of His Majesty’s Treasury, my hon. Friend the Member for Redcar (Anna Turley), and my hon. Friends the Members for West Ham and Beckton (James Asser), for Slough (Mr Dhesi), for Macclesfield (Tim Roca), for Brighton Kemptown and Peacehaven (Chris Ward) and for Wellingborough and Rushden (Gen Kitchen), and others in their places.
I start by congratulating the Minister for Veterans and People, my hon. and gallant Friend the Member for Birmingham Selly Oak (Al Carns) on his appointment to ministerial office. We are indeed fortunate to have someone of his experience and dedication leading the way in advocating for all veterans and their families. His role is pivotal, and his leadership will undoubtedly influence the lives of countless veterans for the better. I thank him.
At this time of year, we come together to honour the profound sacrifices made in times of conflict and to remember those who gave their lives so we could live ours in peace. It is right to have this debate about those veterans that Governments have let down in the past, not because, as some would assert, talking about diversity, inclusivity and lived experience makes our armed forces weaker, but because it makes them stronger.
The gay ban, which was active from 1967 to 2000, was an abhorrent period of our history. For over three decades, discriminatory practices and policies excluded LGBT individuals. Those policies created a culture of fear and discrimination, in which people were compelled to hide and deny who they were or risk losing everything. The treatment in that way of people who were actively serving our country, often putting themselves in harm’s way, is a shameful chapter in our history. It undermines the values that we hold so close of respect, honour, duty, freedom and inclusion. Especially as a gay man, to whom this period feels somewhat alien considering the freedoms we enjoy today, I find it sickening to reflect on that legacy. We must ensure that it never happens again.
Mr Tanmanjeet Singh Dhesi (Slough) (Lab)
I thank my hon. Friend for securing the debate. As he has rightly mentioned, although the damage of the ban on LGBT personnel serving from 1967 to 2000 and their abhorrent treatment cannot be undone, the restorative measures contained in the independent review remain hugely important. Does he agree that it is incredibly important, to ensure justice, that steps are taken to create greater awareness of the measures, which should be implemented forthwith?
Oliver Ryan
My hon. Friend the Chair of the Select Committee—it is good to see him in his place—is completely right about the recommendations made as part of the review. I will come on to that point shortly.
I pay tribute to Fighting With Pride, an LGBT veterans charity, for the amazing work they do in advocating and supporting the health and wellbeing of LGBT veterans, service personnel and their families. I have met Craig Jones and Carl Austin-Behan, whose strength and work in this area have been invaluable to many. They make the important point, more eloquently than I, that this is about security. It is about the historic injustice of lives ruined by prison sentences, criminal records and being labelled as sex offenders, and the shame that brings. Indeed, Craig highlighted two particular cases to me. The first was of “Steven”, a man imprisoned for his sexuality during the 1980s while serving in Germany. The second is “David”, a Gulf war veteran imprisoned and registered as a sex offender in the mid ’90s, just months before I was born. This stuff is not ancient history.
Lord Etherton’s review makes stark the terrible experiences that so many LGBTQ veterans had to endure. His report bears out the painful reality of being forcibly removed from the armed forces, the harassment these people faced and the acute losses that such discrimination led to. As one veteran said, particularly poignantly,
“My ejection from the army made me homeless. My mother disowned me for ‘bringing shame to the family’ and I ended up living in a car with an unhealthy relationship with alcohol until I got myself back together. It took years.”
That summarises the deep emotional scars that have been left by a system that failed in its duty to protect those who served. My own constituent “Steven”—I would not be raising this issue without his lobbying throughout the campaign and since I became an MP—was not a gay man but was dismissed based on suspicion about his sexuality. He was left with a life in tatters, living in shame and anguish for years and his relationship with his family was broken because of the decision that was taken about him.
The review’s findings are both alarming and revealing, highlighting that even after the repeal of the ban LGBT veterans continued to face both discrimination and stigma—and many still face significant barriers in accessing the full range of benefits and services they deserve, underscoring how unwelcoming the culture can be for LGBT service members. It is unacceptable. It is not what we want for Britain and it cannot be what the armed forces are about. I know that the Minister agrees.
James Asser (West Ham and Beckton) (Lab)
It is 30 years since I began to get involved in campaigning on LGBT issues, so this is not as ancient history for me as it is for my hon. Friend as he is younger than me— I got that in before he did. I was speaking to a veteran last night. My hon. Friend has mentioned how this is still affecting people, and the world has changed significantly from when I started campaigning, when people were still being criminalised and convicted. But this is still a live issue for many people and there is concern among campaigners that many veterans are now getting older and time is running out for them to be able to resolve this.
Oliver Ryan
I thank my hon. Friend for that intervention and am grateful for his experience. It comes as a bit of a reality check that, especially as gay men, we stand on the shoulders of giants in this space. The people who have come before us have lived much more difficult lives and faced much more discrimination than we do, so the duty is on us to raise these points.
The report pointed out several aspects of the situation, pointing out in particular the mental health difficulties faced by LGBT veterans against the special nature of the experiences and traumas they were exposed to. They reported higher rates of suicide, homelessness and mental health issues that included, but were not limited to, symptoms of post-traumatic stress disorder and depression. That is why a focus on targeted services is important to adjust to their needs.
Access to healthcare and support services was an additional concern raised by the review. Many LGBT veterans report difficulties in navigating the support system, and too often felt that their identities and experiences are not understood or respected, even in the present day. For these veterans, the lack of sensitivity and awareness in the system was a significant obstacle to receiving the care and support they deserve. It is essential that our systems cultivate an environment of understanding and respect going forward—one that acknowledges the distinct experience of LGBT veterans within the wider veteran support network.
The creation of dedicated support schemes tailored to the needs of LGBT veterans is another critical recommendation. These programmes should include peer-to-peer support, mental health resources and other services that acknowledge and validate the unique experiences of LGBT veterans. Peer support in particular can be an invaluable resource, offering veterans a safe space to share their experiences, build connections and receive encouragement from others who understand their journey. Increased outreach efforts are also essential to ensure that LGBT veterans are aware of the services available to them. For too long, many of those veterans have felt marginalised and disconnected from the resources intended to support them. We have to link those people up. Targeted communication strategies are needed to engage this community effectively, ensuring that they know their rights and the resources at their disposal. By proactively reaching out to LGBT veterans, we can foster a sense of belonging to ensure that they receive the support that they need.
Financial redress stands out as a key recommendation in Lord Etherton’s review, underscoring the need to compensate those affected by these historic wrongs. Although the previous Government offered a formal apology and took meaningful steps to implement many of the review’s recommendations, the allocated £50 million compensation scheme fund falls short, inadequately compensating the estimated 4,000 LGBT veterans and those affected by discriminatory practices. This amount is insufficient to address the depth of the harm inflicted or the number of people whose lives have been trashed in many cases. We must advocate for a more substantial commitment to financial redress—one that reflects the true scale of injustice endured by these individuals, and that seeks to make amends in a meaningful way. I know the Minister is genuinely alive to this; he is listening, and he and the Defence Secretary understand the plight of this community. I thank him for his continuing work in this area to support our veterans, especially as a man of service himself.
The independent LGBT veterans review provides a comprehensive road map to address the inequalities faced by LGBT veterans. By recognising the ongoing challenges, we can take decisive steps to implement the report’s recommendations. We can work towards creating a military and veteran support system that truly honours the service of all individuals, regardless of their sexual orientation or gender identity. This commitment to inclusivity and justice is not only a moral imperative, but a testament to the values we strive to uphold as a nation—values that I know the Minister and the Government agree with.
Let us take this opportunity to ensure that the sacrifices of all our veterans are acknowledged and respected. Let us all work together to build a future in which every service member is afforded the dignity and support they deserve, free from the shadow of discrimination. This is our chance to demonstrate our commitment to justice, to extend a hand to those we have wronged—including the review of financial redress—and to create a legacy of equality and respect within our armed forces today and for the future.
Mr Gideon Amos (Taunton and Wellington) (LD)
I congratulate the hon. Member for Burnley (Oliver Ryan) on securing this debate—an excellent move. I also thank the Minister and you, Madam Deputy Speaker, for allowing me to speak, following a somewhat short-notice request.
I am confident that the House will come together today to recognise the service of many of our armed forces who were shockingly discriminated against and dismissed for nothing more than being who they are. The Liberal Democrat party constitution includes the belief that everyone should be free from poverty, ignorance and conformity. It is in that spirit that we on the Liberal Democrat Benches add our support to the recommendations of the Etherton review. I also add our support and thanks to the work of the organisations already listed that campaign for the rights of these people.
Five minutes from my house is the RAF cadet base, which I see on the way to the Army Cadet Force where I am an adult instructor. I confess that in coming into the Chamber and thanking the Minister, I am not sure whether I should be saluting or bowing—I am only a sergeant! What I want to say is that my constituent Mark Shepherd used to be a member of the RAF cadets in Taunton in my constituency and later went on to pursue the career he wanted as a technician.
Mark went on to see active service on the frontline with Tornados in the second Kuwait war and in Kosovo. But he was then questioned about his sexuality and presented with the option of either leaving immediately—immediate dismissal, from which he would have lost £6,000, a considerable sum of money for a young man at that stage in life—or the premature retirement route, which he had to take. That meant he had to stay in the service much longer in very difficult circumstances with a cloud hanging over him, when really all that should have hung over him was our nation’s gratitude for serving our country on the frontline and putting his life on the line.
I am delighted that this issue has come to the fore. I genuinely congratulate the hon. Member for Burnley on bringing it forward. I am absolutely delighted that in a few weeks in Taunton I will be presenting Mark with his RAF certificate to recognise the injustice that was done to him. It is my absolute privilege to have the opportunity to do that, and to explain and pay tribute to his service in this debate.
Chris Ward (Brighton Kemptown and Peacehaven) (Lab)
I thank my hon. Friend the Member for Burnley (Oliver Ryan) for securing this very welcome debate, and the Minister for Veterans and People, my hon. Friend the Member for Birmingham Selly Oak (Al Carns) for the collegiate and sympathetic way he has engaged with me and other colleagues across the House over recent weeks.
I represent a constituency with a significant number of LGBT veterans, some of whom I have had the huge honour of meeting in recent weeks. I have also been fortunate enough to work with Fighting With Pride, the same organisation my hon. Friend the Member for Burnley referred to earlier, and I am pleased to say that they join us in the Public Gallery today.
Let me be clear about the injustice that has been suffered here. As the Etherton review sets out, for over four decades, considerable time, resource and effort was put into hunting down people who were suspected of being gay in the armed forces. That led, among other things, to arrest, interrogation, demeaning physical inspections and medical treatments, court martial, imprisonment and being dismissed in disgrace. As we have heard, this left many LGBT veterans, often at a young age, with criminal records, and no jobs, income or family support.
In the short time I have, I just want to highlight one case, a constituent of mine who I met last week. Steve joined the RAF in 1971 at the age of 16. He worked on Vulcan Bombers at RAF Waddington, served three tours of the Falklands, and was stationed in West Germany. He had an impeccable service record. In 1985, he was investigated by the RAF over a relationship with a male officer. He made the fatal mistake of telling the truth and was sentenced to six months in jail. He lost his rank, all his financial benefits, his family and the career he loved. When he was released he was 28 years old, homeless and had nowhere to turn. As I said, I met Steve. He is a man of huge honour and courage, but these are the words he said to me:
“I felt washed in shame. My career was shattered. I had a criminal record. I had no pension and had to live hand to mouth for the rest of life surviving on benefits.”
I raise Steve’s case not because it is unique. In fact, as we have heard today, it is not even an outlier. It is sadly typical of the story of too many LGBT veterans: loss of earnings, loss of dignity and loss of purpose not over the short term, but over a lifetime. That is why I gently ask the Minister, who has been incredibly sympathetic—and while I recognise the financial situation under which the Government operate—whether capping payments at an average of around £12,500 per person can really be appropriate for the level of injustice suffered by Steve and so many other LGBT veterans?
Finally, the Defence Secretary, for whom I have enormous respect, said when the Etherton report was published:
“This is unfinished business for Labour.”—[Official Report, 13 December 2023; Vol. 742, c. 899.]
I agree, and I know that the Veterans Minister will want to complete that work and finally deliver the justice for which LGBT veterans have been waiting far too long.
Tim Roca (Macclesfield) (Lab)
I thank my hon. Friend the Member for Burnley (Oliver Ryan) for securing this debate. He is proving himself to be a powerful advocate for his constituency. May I also welcome my hon. and gallant Friend the Minister to his place, and thank him for all the work he does? He is a credit to the Government. Finally, I thank you, Madam Deputy Speaker, for your indulgence in allowing me to speak this afternoon.
The very fact that we have to hold this debate is a reminder that there was once a time when a person’s ability to serve was questioned because of the person they loved. Discrimination against any LGBT person is of course appalling, but it takes a special kind of cynicism and bigotry to punish, denigrate and demean volunteer servicemen and women—soldiers who served willingly, fought beside their peers willingly, and in some cases died or were injured in the line of duty—because of their sexuality. There was never any excuse for the laws being what they were. There was no justification on account of ability in combat, no rationale based on individual discipline, and no standards that those servicemen and women could not and did not reach. The laws existed simply because of a fear of difference, and an intolerance of LGBT people. It was inexcusable.
It is worth reflecting on the sad truth that there used to be consensus about those laws. Shamefully, in 1996—quite recently—a cross-party Select Committee rejected calls for the removal of the ban, but it is important to note that 30 years on, there is a new consensus. Before, brave individuals such as naval officer Duncan Lustig-Prean, RAF sergeant Graeme Grady, RAF nurse Jeanette Smith and Navy weapons engineer John Beckett had to stand alone, but now this place is united in condemnation of that policy and—alongside the phenomenal charities that have been referenced, such as Fighting With Pride—supports the thousands of LGBT soldiers, sailors and airmen in our armed forces.
I am pleased to say that a member of my new team here in Parliament is an Army reservist and has seen in his own military career an improvement in attitudes towards himself and other LGBT+ colleagues. It is a journey, but it is worth acknowledging that things are improving. Instead of being seen as a threat and a source of disruption, difference is seen as an advantage. Celebrating difference and diversity of thought, avoiding group-think and fostering a “thinking soldier” environment are parts of a wider conceptual component that gives our military an edge. It is not enough simply to say that we tolerate LGBT people in our military or our society. We value their unique contribution to our forces.
However, even though we are far beyond the ban of the ’90s, we need to support those whom we let down. I am worried, as other hon. Members are, that a cap was placed on the compensation scheme for the 4,000 veterans that lost their careers because of institutional bigotry by the British state. I agree with my hon. Friends: how can £12,400 be deemed sufficient compensation for someone’s own chaplain initiating an investigation and subsequent interrogation of them by the Special Investigation Branch?
The British state treated many thousands of people with contempt in exchange for their willingness to serve. It exposed them to state-sanctioned, institutionalised homophobia and to discharge, leaving them isolated from their friends and family. I am glad that we are building a new consensus, but let us go a step further and make sure that those 4,000 brave, selfless servicemen and women get the compensation and redress that they deserve. And they are only the ones we know about. How many more managed by hiding their true selves? How many more denied their true self to themselves? We must do right by these people.
Finally, as we approach Remembrance Day, I hope that we can all add to our reflections a moment for LGBT veterans specifically. I will be thinking of Edward Brittain. Edward was born in Macclesfield, my constituency. At 21, as a temporary lieutenant in the Sherwood Foresters, Edward fought in the battle of the Somme. He was injured twice, shot in the arm and then in the right thigh on 1 June 1916. His gallantry won him the Military Cross, just as the Minister’s did. Edward’s citation was precise and understated:
“For conspicuous gallantry and leadership during an attack. He was severely wounded, but continued to lead his men with great bravery and coolness until a second wound disabled him.”
On returning to the front, he was tipped off by his commanding officer that he would face a court martial when he came out of the line, as Army censors had read in his personal correspondence that he had had an intimate relationship with a man in his company.
On 15 June 1918, as Edward led his company on a counter-attack on the Asagio plateau to recapture a trench and stop an enemy advance, he was shot and killed by an enemy sniper. He was 22 years old. Whether he deliberately put himself in a position to be killed, as his sister and his CO believed, is unknowable, but what is knowable is that had Edward come out of the line alive between 15 June 1918 and 12 January 2000, he would have been court-martialled and shamed by the country he had shed blood for.
Edward had a Military Cross. He was shot twice at the Battle of the Somme, but returned to the front and led his men with bravery. However, none of that mattered—he would have been considered a disruption to the unit. Let me be the first person in this place to thank Captain Edward Brittain MC for his service. He deserved better from his country.
The Minister for Veterans and People (Al Carns)
I am grateful to my hon. Friend the Member for Burnley (Oliver Ryan) for initiating this debate. I thank the hon. Member for Taunton and Wellington (Mr Amos) for lending his support, and for his fantastic support for cadets, which is absolutely super. I thank my hon. Friend the Member for Brighton Kemptown and Peacehaven (Chris Ward) for sharing a harrowing story that is all too familiar across the system. I thank my hon. Friend the Member for Macclesfield (Tim Roca) for his moving story, which really resonates, given what we are discussing today.
Earlier this month, I had the privilege of speaking at the LGBTQ+ defence awards, where I thanked former and serving personnel for their tenacity and courage. I mentioned that anyone can dodge bullets, bombs or artillery fire, but to fight against the tide when everything is bearing down on you, and to continue the struggle and fight for justice, is commendable. A wise man once said to me that courage is a decision, not a reaction. Those fighting for pride, and others who have championed this cause for so long, are truly courageous. Indeed, they are the bravest of the brave.
The abhorrent way in which LGBT service personnel were treated between 1967 and 2000 by the Ministry of Defence was completely unacceptable. The Ministry was on the wrong side of history. Its historical policy of prohibiting homosexuality in the armed forces was simply wrong, which is why the LGBT veterans independent review, conducted by Lord Etherton, has united this Chamber since its report came out in July last year. This Government supported the review in opposition, and we are now supporting its delivery. I trust that colleagues appreciate the importance of this remaining a cross-party issue as we address the remaining recommendations.
I want to personally thank Lord Etherton for all the thoughtful work he has done to address the long- burning injustices, and I am pleased that 33 of his 49 recommendations have been implemented. I can confirm that we have already received 676 applications for non-financial restorative measures through the gov.uk website. In practice, this means that the chiefs of the Army, the Royal Navy and the Royal Air Force have sent apology letters directly to the individuals affected by these issues. Medals and berets that should never have been taken away have been reissued, and each of the services has hosted several presentation ceremonies to welcome LGBT veterans back into the service family, where they have always belonged.
Rightly, our focus is now on fully addressing the 16 outstanding recommendations, including the two that relate to financial redress for those dismissed and discharged as a result of the ban, so I very much welcome this opportunity to hear the views of hon. Members. It will help inform the Government’s work to design an appropriate financial redress scheme that enables applications to be considered on a case-by-case basis and timely payments to be made. I can reassure veterans and the whole LGBT community that the needs of potential claimants are being carefully considered at each stage, including the need for a fast lane for applicants in certain circumstances, especially those with terminal illnesses.
I am, of course, aware of speculation, and I have heard some figures in relation to the fund. I trust colleagues will understand that we continue to finalise its modalities, and it is too soon for me to comment on exact figures. However, the Government are fully committed to meeting our inherited target of opening the application window by the end of 2024, and it remaining open for two years.
Oliver Ryan
I am not sure whether it is common procedure for someone intervene in their own debate, but I appreciate the Minister’s time, and I thank him for his comments about the compensation scheme. I know that he is doing the work, and that he sincerely understands the scenario for these people. It would be remiss of me not to mention that although “Steven”, my constituent, felt that yesterday’s Budget was great in lots of ways, particularly the provisions around infected blood and the Post Office scandal, he wanted a compensation scheme to deal with this issue in the same way. I hope that the Minister will look at that, make sure that we do not wait another year, for the next Budget, to talk about what we can do financially and sustainably, and recognise the context that “Steven” references.
Al Carns
I thank my hon. Friend for that intervention. To link that to what my hon. Friend the Member for Brighton Kemptown and Peacehaven said, I am aware of recent speculation about the size of any fund and redress payments. It is not possible to have certainty about the number of applicants at the moment. It is also premature to estimate the size of the payment awards, but we are working to make sure that the broadest number of individuals receive payments. We acknowledge that along with those who were dismissed and discharged, many who were not were also impacted by the ban.
Of the 16 outstanding recommendations, six are for the Ministry of Defence and the Office for Veterans’ Affairs to implement, including the delivery of the memorial at the National Arboretum, which I had the pleasure of visiting last week. We are progressing those with the excellent staff from Fighting With Pride, who are here today. Ten of the outstanding recommendations are for the national health service, as my hon. Friend the Member for Burnley mentioned, and my team are in touch with Department of Health and Social Care colleagues to track that process.
My hon. Friend highlighted harrowing stories about the ban, which are tragically all too familiar. The Defence Secretary and I have sat down with a number of veterans affected by the ban, and I have heard about the different and profound ways that it has harmed people’s lives. That is why I am determined that the Government shall address all the outstanding recommendations.
James Asser
One of the reasons why we are in this position, having made so much progress, is that under the last Labour Government, we made a lot of legal changes, but we also worked to make societal changes, along with progressive colleagues from other parties. There is a lot of hope from the community that, with a new Government, we can pick up that baton and make progress again, so I am pleased to hear what the Minister says. Does he agree that resolving these issues quickly would send the message to the LGBT community that we are taking this seriously, and are keen to get on with making progress on equality again?
Al Carns
I absolutely agree. The quicker that we get this done and get due justice delivered, the better. That is absolutely where we want to go.
When I joined the Royal Marines in 1999, the shameful ban on homosexuality in the armed forces was still in place. Last month, the Defence Secretary and I presented Etherton ribbons to Emma Riley, Stephen Close and Carl Austin-Behan. The ribbon represents the commitment and sacrifices made in service by LGBT veterans, the suffering caused by the cruel ban, and the strength shown by those who stood against it. It is one of numerous steps that the Government are taking to ensure that the armed forces are tolerant and welcoming to all.
Our LGBT+ networks are helping us to improve the experiences of service personnel and civilian staff. I urge everyone affected by past failings to register interest in restorative measures by visiting the LGBT veterans support page on gov.uk. The Defence Secretary and I will drive hard to get this work done, until every recommendation of Lord Etherton’s review is implemented —to right the wrongs of the past and to ensure that every veteran who has helped keep Britain secure receives the respect and support they deserve.
Question put and agreed to.