Westminster Hall is an alternative Chamber for MPs to hold debates, named after the adjoining Westminster Hall.
Each debate is chaired by an MP from the Panel of Chairs, rather than the Speaker or Deputy Speaker. A Government Minister will give the final speech, and no votes may be called on the debate topic.
This information is provided by Parallel Parliament and does not comprise part of the offical record
The Minister for Health and Secondary Care (Will Quince)
It is a pleasure to serve under your chairmanship, Sir Charles. I assure you that, although I will try to address as many of the points and themes raised during this very constructive debate as possible, I do not intend to take the full time available to me.
I congratulate the hon. Member for Erith and Thamesmead (Abena Oppong-Asare) on securing a hugely important debate, and I thank all hon. Members for their contributions. Although I did not agree with all the points made by the Labour Front Bencher, the hon. Member for Tooting (Dr Allin-Khan), I thoroughly agree that there is considerable consensus. What has been displayed is Parliament working at its best, with all hon. Members raising constituency cases and rightly campaigning for greater access to and awareness of defibrillators in their communities and across our country. I put on record my condolences to those who have lost loved ones due to sudden death caused by an undiagnosed heart issue.
As has been said, defibrillators provide vital treatment, with the latest research showing that the use of such devices within three to five minutes of a cardiac arrest increases the chance of survival by over 40%. It is therefore crucial that we have enough defibrillators in public spaces to provide life-saving interventions when needed. I join the hon. Member for Erith and Thamesmead in paying tribute to and thanking the APPG and its members for all their work in this area. She mentioned the need for steady pressure, and I think that she is absolutely right to use that phrase. It is vital that we keep that steady pressure up, not just on the Department or the NHS but on organisations up and down the country, to ensure that we have as much access to these vital AEDs as possible.
The hon. Member for Erith and Thamesmead set out very articulately and eloquently the compelling case for access to and awareness of defibrillators, and I think that she did her constituents and the House a huge service today. I would also like to thank the charities, businesses, clubs and societies that go out and fundraise for AEDs; they are doing their communities a huge service too. Investing in devices and treatments that can prevent the most serious cardiac arrythmias is a priority for the Government. The hon. Lady also rightly raised the issue of inequality. That certainly preys on my mind when considering many aspects of health. She made a very powerful case, and I hope to address that point in my contribution.
As the hon. Member for Tooting mentioned, in December the Government announced a £1 million fund to design a grant scheme for the expansion of publicly accessible AEDs in the community. That fund was designed to provide an estimated 1,000 new defibrillators in spaces across the country. Whether at a town hall, a post office or a favourite green space outside the local Co-op, having access to AEDs in easy-to-reach areas, as we know and as has been very articulately set out this afternoon, can be a lifeline that keeps loved ones with us.
The fund builds on work by the Government, the NHS and stakeholders to improve survival from out-of-hospital cardiac arrests via the use of defibrillators and cardiopulmonary resuscitation—from now on I will use “CPR”, as I do not have the health expertise of the hon. Member for Tooting. The Department of Health and Social Care will invest the funding through an independent partner—I think this directly answers the question from the hon. Member for Erith and Thamesmead—which will be selected from the Government’s Crown Commercial Service list of approved suppliers. Successful applicants will then be asked to demonstrate that the defibrillators will be placed in areas where they are most needed.
To address the hon. Lady’s point about inequality, although Ministers will have no involvement in deciding where defibrillators are sited—it would be totally inappropriate for them to have that kind of involvement— I understand her concerns. It is inevitable to some extent that where an item of medtech is purchased by local communities, there will be a higher prevalence in more affluent areas, where it is easier to fundraise. Where there is Government funding available, it is important that wherever possible we use it to redress the balance in favour of areas that find it more difficult to fundraise. We must ensure that we target areas where there is a shortage of AEDs and do not just top up provision in areas where coverage is already good. I will certainly speak with the Minister for Social Care to see what more we can do to involve local Members of Parliament and interested groups, including the APPG, with the selected partner, to ensure that we get that right, because the hon. Member for Erith and Thamesmead has made a compelling case.
Abena Oppong-Asare
That is really good news to hear. Something that I also want to suggest to the Minister, which I think is really important, is about mapping areas of high need, because one of my concerns is that I am seeing community organisations fundraise for defibrillators, unaware that that fund has been available since late last year. I appreciate that these things take time and it is important that we get it right—we are not just flashing money around anyhow—but will review mechanisms be put in place to ensure that over time the funding is going to the right areas and that the right individuals are receiving the benefits of it?
Will Quince
I thank the hon. Lady for her intervention. She is absolutely right. It is important that whenever we spend Government money—taxpayer-funded money—in this way, there is a proper evaluation process. Having said that, although looking back and asking if we got it right is key, the most important thing for me is to get it right first time. We do that by ensuring that there are clear criteria.
The hon. Lady is also right that we have to map and look at not just areas where people do not have access to AEDs, but areas of social deprivation and areas with a higher prevalence of cardiovascular disease or higher footfall. Those are all factors that we absolutely need to consider when designing the criteria that the independent third-party provider would scope. I am keen to work with the hon. Lady and the APPG to ensure that we are getting that right.
Alongside that—and this is the reason why the number of AEDs that will be available through the fund is an estimate—there is a plan to ask for the match funding that some organisations receive. I am conscious that some areas will be able to do that but others will struggle, which is why it can be full or partial. Potentially, however, that could double the number of AEDs available. Some communities might be able to make only a small contribution, but others could match-fund it entirely. It is important that we set criteria that make it available as widely as possible to communities, especially those less affluent areas where fundraising is difficult.
Abena Oppong-Asare
That is really good. Another thing to highlight is that, as we see in data from The Circuit, not everyone is registering their defibrillators. Is the Minister coming to the point about organisations ensuring that when they receive the funding, they register it as well?
Will Quince
Absolutely. The hon. Lady pre-empts me: I am coming on to The Circuit, because that point has been made by nearly all hon. Members, but I will first conclude my remarks about the fund.
Successful applicants will be encouraged to train or facilitate CPR training in the local community. That is an important element. To expedite the distribution of funding, and in readiness for the appointment of our partner organisation—this touches on the hon. Lady’s question—on 28 June the Department published an invitation for those organisations that wish to bid for an AED to submit an expression of interest.
My hon. Friend the Minister for Social Care wrote to all hon. Members informing them of the AED expression of interest and setting out how organisations can register their interest. It is incumbent on all Members of Parliament to ensure that community groups, organisations and local authorities across our constituencies spread the message loud and clear so that we get as many expressions of interest as possible. I urge any organisation that may benefit from a defibrillator, whether it is a sports club, a local theatre or a community hall, to register and have that opportunity. It is also important that we encourage local councillors to get involved.
The hon. Member for Erith and Thamesmead asked specifically about the Department for Education. I was Schools Minister at the time the decision was made and signed off. On 17 July, the Department for Education announced that it would provide defibrillators to schools in England that do not already have access to one. That is expected to be completed by the end of the 2022-23 academic year. The scheme, of which I am very proud, is the largest distribution of defibrillators to be rolled out across England to date. It will provide more than 20,000 devices, backed by £19 million of funding.
Dr Allin-Khan
The end of the academic year is in two weeks’ time, on 17 July. May I ask for an update on the progress to meet the target?
Will Quince
I have not been the Schools Minister for many months, but I will gladly ensure that the relevant Minister—or I, having accessed that information—gets it to the hon. Lady.
I remember that a key point in the design of the scheme—this touches on a point made by many hon. Members—was that providing an AED, in and of itself, is not enough. Accompanying the roll-out, we wanted to ensure that there were awareness videos about how easy it is to use an AED. We want teachers, as part of their training and in the staffroom, and pupils in assemblies to see how easy an AED is to use. In a rolling way, we hoped to create a new generation of young people who are confident in their use. As AEDs become more prevalent across communities, that can only be a good thing.
I think it was the hon. Member for Plymouth, Sutton and Devonport (Luke Pollard) who asked about CPR and first aid training. As a Back Bencher, I campaigned to have first aid included on the curriculum. The Schools Minister at the time was not very happy about that—not because he was against having it on the curriculum, but because the curriculum was already very full—but we did manage to get it included. It is important that we upskill young people so they have the confidence to act in the unlikely but possible event that they encounter someone in cardiac arrest.
The question about vandalism of defibrillators is a fair one. I had not given it any thought, but I will certainly have a conversation with my counterparts in the Home Office and the Ministry of Justice and see if there is any scope to take further action in that area.
Turning to The Circuit, I would certainly like to recognise the incredibly important work that charities do in ensuring that the public have access to defibrillators. The British Heart Foundation, in partnership with Resuscitation Council UK, the Association of Ambulance Chief Executives and of course the national health service, set up The Circuit, which is the national defibrillator network database that provides information on where defibrillators are located.
I heard the point that the hon. Member for Tiverton and Honiton (Richard Foord) made about legislation, which I have some concerns about. At the moment, registration is entirely voluntary, so nobody is forced to register their defibrillator with The Circuit. However, registration enables the emergency services and community first responders to locate the nearest publicly accessible external defibrillator when they are treating someone suffering from an out-of-hospital sudden cardiac arrest. In those crucial moments after a cardiac arrest, we know that locating an AED quickly will help save lives.
Richard Foord
What are the arguments against making registration compulsory?
Will Quince
That is a question that I had not previously been asked. The danger of legislating in an area like this is that often there are consequences of legislation. One consequence would be that all existing defibrillators were registered as part of The Circuit, and that comes with a tick—that is a merit. However, having created legislation and having worked in Government Departments where legislation has been drafted on numerous occasions, I know that there are invariably and inevitably also negative unintended consequences that need to be considered and thought through.
For example, would registration discourage communities from taking a defibrillator? Would it discourage businesses like the one to which the hon. Member for Plymouth, Sutton and Devonport referred from putting one in their shop? We have to think through that kind of thing. What kind of pressure does it put on those organisations? Would it discourage people? If we are going to create legislation, what are the implications of not registering? Will there be a criminal sanction or a civil one? These are all things we would have to work through, and that is why legislating on something like this is complex. We have to remember that most defibrillators are bought by community groups, although in this particular case the Government support them. We would be placing a legal requirement on them for something that they are purchasing through goodwill, for philanthropic or altruistic reasons.
We have just got to be careful. I am not saying that we should not consider it, but it is not quite as simple as saying, “Let’s legislate,” and thinking that that will address the problem. What we need to do, and are doing, is to encourage as many people as possible to register because of the benefits of registration.
Abena Oppong-Asare
Would those who receive funding from the £1 million fund for the community be required to register with The Circuit? Where there is Government funding, I think we should be encouraging registration. The more people who are aware, the better.
Will Quince
I totally agree. I will check whether registering will be among the conditions for grant funding; I would like to think that it will, and I will work with the Minister for Social Care to ensure that it is. We know that there are many defibrillators that are not on The Circuit, and—short of legislating, which would not be a quick or easy solution—we have to get them on it as quickly as possible. We have to urge as many organisations and individuals as possible to register.
The hon. Lady asked what steps we are taking to promote that. I recently wrote to all local authorities to ask them to check and, if they have not done so already, to consider adding their defibrillators to The Circuit. I also asked them to reach out and share that message with parish councils, town councils, community groups, village halls, businesses and others that may have a defibrillator that is not registered on The Circuit. I am keen to work with local authorities, which have a reach into their communities that neither central Government nor the national charities could possibly have. I also urge all right hon. and hon. Members to encourage those organisations that have a defibrillator to ensure that it is registered. I join hon. Members in paying tribute to and congratulating the Daily Express on its important campaign, which I am happy to support.
I hear what the hon. Lady says about raising more public awareness about AEDs and where they are located, not on just the parliamentary estate but across communities and the country. I will continue to look at what more we can do centrally, but also by working with national and local charities, to raise that awareness.
The hon. Member for Plymouth, Sutton and Devonport asked about businesses. Some organisations—such as the Premier League, which the hon. Member for Erith and Thamesmead referred to—are leading the way, but we want to encourage more to do so. I will give further thought to how we can encourage other businesses to do the same.
The hon. Member for Tiverton and Honiton asked about first aid, and particularly about CPR. Better awareness and education around first aid training is key to improving survival rates from cardiac arrest. I am pleased that NHS England has partnered with St John Ambulance to, in effect, co-ordinate skills development to significantly increase the use of AEDs by individuals in community settings. That includes a national network of community advocates to champion the importance of first aid training. The plan is to reach 60,000 people, which will help to save up to 4,000 lives each year by 2028, empowering local communities to act more quickly to save people’s lives.
Finally, I cannot speak about cardiac arrest without speaking about prevention, which the hon. Member for Plymouth, Sutton and Devonport referred to. The prevention of heart disease is critical to reducing the number of sudden cardiac arrests. I will set out some of the work that NHS England is doing to reduce preventable deaths from heart disease. Currently, £2.3 billion is being spent to increase the number of centres diagnosing heart disease to at least 100 sites by March 2025. NHS England has developed a new fast-track echocardiography training scheme, which has led to 150 additional echocardiographers, with further support available in 2023-24.
The NHS health check programme, which the Secretary of State recently spoke about, is a core component of NHS England’s CVD prevention pathway. Over 15 million people are eligible for a NHS health check every five years. For every 1 million checks delivered, the NHS health check could prevent an estimated 400 heart attacks and strokes. Something like 10.8 million checks have been delivered between 2013 and December 2022, but it is important that we work hard to ensure that more people benefit from that lifesaving service and get a health check. I am keen that we make it easier and more convenient for people to do so.
I hope that today I have demonstrated the Government’s commitment to increasing the number of AEDs in our local communities. I am keen to see how we can turbocharge that and work with businesses and local communities to go much further. We can all agree that this agenda really matters. Once again, I thank the hon. Member for Erith and Thamesmead for highlighting this vital issue. I look forward to working with her to bring about the change in this area that we all want to see.
Sir Charles Walker (in the Chair)
I invite the hon. Member who secured the debate to wind up for up to two minutes.
Abena Oppong-Asare
I thank the Minister for his remarks about what can be done. This debate was very much about a collaborative approach. Indeed, it is one of the rare debates that I have attended where there has been much consensus.
I thank hon. Members for sharing their experiences, particularly the hon. Member for Tiverton and Honiton (Richard Foord), who also shared some best practices on defibrillators. I am not familiar with the defibrillator dash, but it is something that we can all look into. I thank my hon. Friend the Member for Barnsley East (Stephanie Peacock) for her comments about the community groups fundraising for defibrillators in her constituency, and my hon. Friend the Member for Plymouth, Sutton and Devonport (Luke Pollard), who talked about the importance of corporates, the work that they have done in Plymouth and what can be done in supermarkets.
I thank the Minister for saying that he will consider what engagement and what encouraging conversations there can be with businesses. I am a bit concerned about the £1 million fund, in terms of inequality and little groups being missed out, particularly because we know that the groups that know how to do slick bids are the ones that are very good at getting the money. I am feeling a bit reassured by the Minister that the Government are looking at work to ensure that it is distributed equally, but I think a review needs to be done to make sure that nobody is left behind. It would also be good to get some clarification about whether those receiving funding are being required—
Abena Oppong-Asare
They are? That is good to hear.
May I take this opportunity to thank you, Sir Charles, for saying that you will look at defibrillators in Parliament in your role as Chair of the Administration Committee? I am very impressed that you have taken that on board straightaway. I also want to thank the organisations and charities that have been driving this campaign for their excellent work and briefings.
I thank Bonnie for campaigning on this issue in memory of her dad. I want every citizen, no matter where they live or what they do, to know about defibrillators, where they are and how to use them. I want us all to know how to use one, just as surely as we know how to use a cashpoint. I have had training in how to use a defibrillator—it is so easy to use. I also welcome what the Minister says about the Government’s work in schools and particularly about starting with very young people. I remember receiving first aid at school, so it is good to start this from a really young age.
All these things are possible with the political will to make them happen. I know we will keep up the fight on this issue. I thank everybody for their contributions to this debate.
Question put and agreed to.
Resolved,
That this House has considered public access to defibrillators.