Baroness Anelay of St Johns (Con)
My Lords, I beg leave to ask the Question standing in my name on the Order Paper and, in so doing, remind the House of my unpaid interest as chair of the United Nations Association of Great Britain and Northern Ireland.
The Minister of State, Foreign, Commonwealth and Development Office (Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon) (Con)
My Lords, the United Kingdom Government support UN Security Council reform. We support an expansion in the council membership, with new permanent seats for India, Germany, Japan and Brazil, and permanent African representation. We support the expansion of the non-permanent membership to take the total membership to the mid-20s. We also support responsible use of the veto. We participate in regular discussions on UN Security Council reform at the UN, including through the General Assembly-mandated intergovernmental negotiations on this very issue.
Baroness Anelay of St Johns (Con)
My Lords, on this very date 77 years ago, the United Nations Security Council met for the first time, here in London. There has been much talk of reform and I very much welcome my noble friend’s words today, but nothing much seems to happen on reform of the powers and the membership. It is a different world from 77 years ago. My noble friend referred to the intergovernmental negotiations. What text-based information have we already tabled, in the light of our ambassador to the UN having said in November that this would be the best way of moving forward, getting away from making promises and good statements, and getting the job done? When my noble friend was there in December, and when my honourable friend Minister Rutley was there just last week, what discussions did they have on this matter of a text-based way forward?
Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon (Con)
My Lords, my noble friend speaks from experience and with insight and expertise. She is right about having text-based discussions, but she will also be aware of the challenges of any talk of UN security reform when presented. When I was at the UN in December, we did not engage specifically on this issue. We have a long-standing commitment to reform, but there are challenges, not least posed by the current permanent five members, which prevent progressive reforms taking place at pace. However, there is a real recognition that the extension of the veto challenge by the General Assembly and our respect for the views of the General Assembly are a reflection of a move in the right direction.
Lord Morris of Aberavon (Lab)
My Lords, does the Minister agree that the prospects for reform, however desirable that may be, are near hopeless? From time to time, and with deep regret, Governments of which I was a member had to act without the approval of the Security Council, as in the case of Kosovo, to avoid a humanitarian disaster, or nothing would have happened.
Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon (Con)
My Lords, I agree with the noble and learned Lord: there are challenges posed, and I have already alluded to them. The use of the veto often prevents specific action being taken. That is why the United Kingdom is one of the longest-standing members not exercising the veto—exercising that really was a matter of last resort. Of course, the challenge remains to ensure that the veto is used sensitively, but sometimes there are occasions where we need to act decisively to prevent humanitarian disasters taking place.
Lord Alton of Liverpool (CB)
My Lords, on the subject of the veto, does the Minister recall that, in 2013, France came forward with a proposal not to abolish but to pragmatically reform the power of veto so that it could not be used where there were allegations of crimes against humanity, the use of genocide or war crimes? That was in the wake of what had happened in Syria. Is not his noble friend Lady Anelay therefore right that we need to revisit some of these questions, not least in the aftermath of war crimes in Ukraine, and what has happened in Tigray, and in Xinjiang to Uighur Muslims? Use of the veto to prevent investigation upholding the genocide convention or the Rome statute is one of the most shameful things and brings the Security Council into disrepute. Should we not be laying resolutions along with the French in the General Assembly and the Human Rights Council, at least paving the way for this kind of practical reform?
Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon (Con)
My Lords, as I said to my noble friend, I agree that it is important that we see reform. That is why, for example, the United Kingdom has supported the accountability mechanism that was put forward, known as the Liechtenstein initiative, which is all about ensuring that, when the veto is exercised, there is accountability for the country that has done so. This now enables the General Assembly to hold vetoing members to account. I would add, once again, that the challenge and tragedy is, as we have seen in recent events in Ukraine, that the egregious abuse of that vetoing right is very much evident and it has been used extensively by Russia.
Lord Purvis of Tweed (LD)
My Lords, I support the Minister’s comments seeking a permanent place on the Security Council for an African nation. That now echoes the Biden Administration’s sub-Saharan Africa strategy and the position of the Canadian Liberal Government, but it should go further, seeking much stronger representation of African nations on the World Bank, the IMF and all the UN agencies. Following the Question asked by the noble Baroness, Lady Anelay, what is the Government’s estimate of a timeframe for UN Security Council reform when Africa is likely to see permanent representation? Western powers simply stating their desire without a road map for reform arguably does more damage than staying silent.
Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon (Con)
My Lords, I agree with the noble Lord: we have seen emerging powers around the world. As my noble friend said in her supplementary question, the world has changed from the time when the UN Security Council was first established and from the time it was reformed and extended. The current membership reflects what happened post the Second World War. The issue of Africa and Africa’s representation is very clear. We welcome the fact that we have seen an increasing number of individuals from African countries emerging to senior leadership positions within the United Nations, but the real challenge is that the people who will ultimately give the green light to fundamental reform of the UN Security Council are its permanent members. At the moment, the challenge is not just reform; it is far more general than that, and specific to many of the conflicts we are facing. I cannot give a timeline, but at the moment I do not think it will be any time soon.
Lord Trefgarne (Con)
My Lords, does my noble friend recall Resolution 502 of the Security Council, which authorised the Falklands operation, despite the fact that the Soviet Union, as it then was, could immediately have vetoed it, but did not?
Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon (Con)
My Lords, one thing I have learned as Minister for the United Nations and from our membership of the UN Security Council is that it is important to build support within the UN and the wider framework of the UN family. That allows us, when an egregious abuse takes place, particularly of sovereignty—as we are seeing now in Ukraine and as we saw in the invasion of the Falklands —to come together as a global community, condemn it and act.
Lord Foulkes of Cumnock (Lab Co-op)
My Lords, does the Minister agree that, if Scotland became independent and the United Kingdom ceased to exist, our membership of the Security Council might be open to question? Is that not why President Putin seeks to break up Britain?
Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon (Con)
My Lords, I do not want to contemplate a day when there is any break-up of the United Kingdom, and that is why we must stay united in ensuring that our United Kingdom—these four nations—is absolutely at one. The importance of the United Kingdom’s position on the world stage through our membership of the P5 and active membership of NATO and other multilateral organisations demonstrates that strength. We are better and stronger together.
Baroness Coussins (CB)
My Lords, can the Minister update the House on any progress there has been towards achieving a Security Council resolution on the protection of civilian interpreters working in conflict zones along the same lines as the resolution for the protection of journalists?
Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon (Con)
My Lords, first, I commend the noble Baroness on her long-standing campaigning in this regard. I assure her that we continue to campaign on the very basis that she has illustrated. It is important that, as we stand up for media freedom, we also recognise the important role that translators and interpreters play.
Lord Collins of Highbury (Lab)
My Lords, the penholder system of the Security Council gives the UK and other permanent members quite significant responsibilities to draft outcomes of documents. Does the Minister agree that it is important to involve non- permanent members in this process? If so, will the Government support extending the principle of co-penholders, or deputy pen-holders, so that we engage others within the work of the Security Council? I commend the Minister on how we focused on the General Assembly and achieved far more than simply worrying about Security Council reform.
Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon (Con)
My Lords, the noble Lord is right: when we want to see the global community moving together, it is not the view of five countries that should prevail but those of the wider membership of the Security Council. That is why we work very closely together. For example, I host an annual meeting of outgoing and new members of the Security Council to establish their priorities, the current penholding situation and our current priorities, so that we can share objectives and ensure buy-in and support for their objectives as well as our own. We will continue to work in that co-operative way, strengthening further the work of the General Assembly.