Police, Crime, Sentencing and Courts Bill (First sitting)

(Limited Text - Ministerial Extracts only)

Committee stage
Tuesday 18th May 2021 Public Bill Committees

[The Chair]

Before we begin, I have a few preliminary announcements. First, let me ask you to switch any electronic devices off or to silent mode. I remind you that Mr Speaker does not allow tea or coffee to be consumed during sittings of this Committee. This is really difficult, but you have to try to observe the social distancing arrangements and sit only in the places that are marked. I ask you to wear a face mask when you are not speaking, unless you are medically exempt. Space is a bit tight in this room, so people just have to observe social distancing and try to make it as easy for people as possible as they are moving around.

Today we will consider, first, the programme motion on the amendment paper. We will then consider a motion to enable the reporting of written evidence for publication and then a motion to allow us to deliberate in private about our questions, before the oral evidence session. In view of the time available, I hope that we can take all those matters without debate. Before we hear evidence from our first panel, we will have a short briefing from the Parliamentary Digital Service on cyber-security, which is of particular concern to members of this Committee because we are dealing with matters relating to the police and criminal law. The programme motion was discussed on Monday by the Programming Sub-Committee for this Bill.

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for the Home Department (Victoria Atkins)]

I beg to move,

That—

(1) the Committee shall (in addition to its first meeting at 9.25 am on Tuesday 18 May) meet—

(a) at 2.00 pm on Tuesday 18 May;

(b) at 11.30 am and 2.00 pm on Thursday 20 May;

(c) at 9.25 am and 2.00 pm on Tuesday 25 May;

(d) at 11.30 am and 2.00 pm on Thursday 27 May;

(e) at 9.25 am and 2.00 pm on Tuesday 8 June;

(f) at 11.30 am and 2.00 pm on Thursday 10 June;

(g) at 9.25 am and 2.00 pm on Tuesday 15 June;

(h) at 11.30 am and 2.00 pm on Thursday 17 June;

(i) at 9.25 am and 2.00 pm on Tuesday 22 June;

(j) at 11.30 am and 2.00 pm on Thursday 24 June;

(2) the Committee shall hear oral evidence in accordance with the following Table:

[The Chair]

Copies of written evidence that the Committee receives will be circulated to members by email and made available in the Committee Room.

Resolved,

That, at this and any subsequent meeting at which oral evidence is to be heard, the Committee shall sit in private until the witnesses are admitted.—(Victoria Atkins.)

--- Later in debate ---

[The Chair]

Thank you. I have got to switch to the Minister, Victoria Atkins. If there is time, I will come back to Sarah Jones.

[Victoria Atkins]

Q Thank you. Like Sarah, I will try to ask quick questions and I would welcome quick answers. First, on the police covenant, I would like to clarify that the covenant applies to officers, staff and volunteers in the police service, and to those who have left as well as those currently serving. Is that correct?

Assistant Commissioner Hewitt: That is right.

[Victoria Atkins]

Q In relation to the serious violence duty, we all acknowledge that we cannot arrest our way out of the problem, particularly with the emergence of county lines. Do you welcome the efforts under the duty to get all the relevant local agencies, including local councils, health services and educational services, to work together to draw up a plan to prevent serious violence in their local areas?

Assistant Commissioner Hewitt: Yes, I welcome that very much. In some senses, that was previously there. When you look, in particular, at the work that has been done by violence reduction units in the past year to 18 months—a couple of years, in fact—getting all the relevant agencies in the local area to focus on and prioritise reducing violence, and play their part, is the way to reduce levels successfully. We can never do that purely by enforcement. This is a really important opportunity to bring all those groups together and focus on violence in their local area.

[Victoria Atkins]

Q Importantly, that also brings transparency to collective efforts to tackle serious violence, because the plans and processes will be transparent, and the public will be aware of what is happening locally.

Assistant Commissioner Hewitt: The fact that it is a partnership is really important as well.

[Victoria Atkins]

Q On public order, we heard mention earlier of the phrase “serious annoyance” in clause 59. That brings the common law offence of public nuisance on to the statute book. Chief Constable, could you help us understand why the police want us to put that common law offence on to the statute book? Could you also explain the derivation of the wording, particularly that phrase “serious annoyance”? In other words, the history of the common law offence of public nuisance over many centuries has included that phrase. It may not mean the same in legal terms as it does in common parlance.

Chief Constable Harrington: We did ask for public nuisance to be made statutory. A Law Commission report from 2015 clearly set out more broadly some of the benefits of doing that. The report refers to:

“serious distress, annoyance, inconvenience or loss of amenity; or is put at risk of suffering any of these things”.

The measure would be for more unusual kinds of protest activity that are not a march. Historically, people have hung off gantries of cranes, where there is serious inconvenience and loss of amenity.

Importantly, making it statutory establishes two things. First, the rules are very clear to those who have to use and understand the legislation. The common law is good, but it is steeped in decided cases and judgments that are often difficult to extract for non-lawyers. It allows Parliament to be clear about what the phrases mean, and to give guidance to policing and the public on what is intended. From a policing perspective, where we have intelligence or information, it allows us to act in advance to prevent some of those issues, where proportionate and necessary. That is the difference that it makes. We are working from the Law Commission report in 2015, which states a number of benefits. We see those as very important for those reasons.

[Victoria Atkins]

Q To clarify, that phrasing has derived not from Home Office officials or Ministers dreaming it up on the back of an envelope; it follows many centuries of legal development, culminating in the 2015 report by the Law Commission.

Chief Constable Harrington: Yes, that is the Law Commission’s summary of what that should be. That is where that phrase appears. We welcome the clarity; making it part of statute allows for phrases such as that and others to be clearly defined for us and for the public.

[Victoria Atkins]

Q My final question is on the extraction of information from digital devices. Particularly in the context of sexual offences, we have an understanding of the impact that searching and seizing digital devices, sometimes for very long periods of time, can have on complainants and their willingness to start and support the police in an investigation and on the attrition rate, where complainants withdraw from cases as they progress. What is your understanding of the framework and code of practice set out in the Bill? What will that do to help complainants in future, particularly in relation to sexual offences, although it will apply across the board?

Assistant Commissioner Hewitt: As I alluded to, it is critical to have a clear code of practice and framework to ensure the extraction to be proportionate and necessary for that investigation, and to be very clear about timelines, how that will be done and how the victim—or the complainant—will be treated throughout. This has been a very challenging area for us. Having that certainty and clarity of the guidelines will help to ensure that everybody understands the process. As I said, the ability for us to do that as quickly as we can, to deliver the evidence we need, is really important to maintain confidence, as you say, for people to come forward, and to maintain those complainants throughout the process, to reduce the attrition levels.

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for the Home Department (Chris Philp)]

Q As always, it is a pleasure to serve under your chairmanship, Mr McCabe. I join other members of the Committee in thanking the police for their service in the difficult circumstances over the past year.

I have two brief questions. The first relates to the proposed increase in the penalty for assaulting an emergency worker from 12 months to two years. Does the police service welcome that change? Do they think that it will potentially deter people from attempting to assault officers in the discharge of their duties?

Assistant Commissioner Hewitt: Yes, we welcome that change very much. It is sad to report that we have seen a steady increase in assaults on emergency workers, primarily police officers. In the month up to 14 March this year, there was a 19% increase on the previous year in assaults on emergency workers, predominantly police officers.

We have done an enormous amount of work in the service; we did an officer and staff safety review process, which is working to improve the safety of our officers and staff. We have worked closely with the Crown Prosecution Service, which has been supportive in achieving charges where officers or staff are assaulted in the course of their duties. I think the increase in the sentence is positive, provided, of course, that those sentences are handed down when people are found guilty at court. We are supportive of that, because it demonstrates the seriousness and the importance of the fact that, although our officers and staff protect the public and do dangerous things, they should not expect routinely to be assaulted.

[Chris Philp]

We completely agree, thank you. My final question relates to out of court disposals. There are proposals in this Bill to simplify the number of out of court disposals from six to two. That has been trialled, I think, in three forces over the past few years—

[The Chair]

Order. Minister, I am very sorry to interrupt you, but we are out of time. We will have to save that question for another witness or another occasion. I am afraid that brings us to the end of the Committee’s allotted time to ask questions. I thank our witnesses on behalf of the Committee. Apologies, Minister, but we are on a pretty tight schedule.

Examination of Witnesses

Chief Superintendent Paul Griffiths and John Apter gave evidence.

--- Later in debate ---

[The Chair]

Okay; that is fine.

[Victoria Atkins]

Q Thank you to you both for all the work that your organisations have done in the past 12 months and, in particular, in relation to the police covenant in the Bill, which I think is welcomed by everybody. Mr Apter, how do you propose to support chief constables to ensure that the outcomes of the covenant are felt by all officers, former officers and staff, and their families?

John Apter: I think we are pushing on an open door. Policing has changed significantly over the past decade or so, and it is the same with chief constables, who may previously have been reluctant to get certain wellbeing initiatives into place. There is wholesale agreement that the covenant will be a positive thing for policing.

The issue we have at the moment is that although we know the principles of the covenant, we do not really know what exactly will be in it. Chief constables know me very well, and I, on behalf of the organisation, will be holding them to account, but I genuinely think that it will be a partnership. Perhaps that is naive, but if, as expected, the legislation allows the covenant to be enshrined in law, I will be saying to chief constables very clearly, “This is not something you can cherry-pick. This is in legislation. This is to benefit our colleagues, staff, volunteers and so on. It is not a nice-to-have; it is an essential.” So they will be held to account, but in fairness I think it will be a productive partnership.

[Victoria Atkins]

Q Thank you. Let me move on to protests, because Parliament is particularly interested in scrutinising those measures. Mr Griffiths, you mentioned gold and silver commanders, who are in charge of the police reaction to some protests. Could you give us a little more understanding of what those roles mean, the responsibilities they have, and the training and experience that those officers will have had before they are able to become gold and silver commanders?

Chief Superintendent Griffiths: Most of them have probably worked their way through the hierarchy of public order command systems, from right at the frontline, following through to supervisory and management roles, but not necessarily in all cases. There is a detailed training command course for public order leads, which embodies everything that you would expect: to understand the tactics necessary when utilising public order, seeking the appropriate advice and guidance, understanding the law and the community, and all the different aspects of decision making that are so important to understand how best to corral a crowd or deal with a peaceful protest.

They will learn how to deal with everything from small, minor protests with just some shouting, to some of the challenges that, sadly, we have seen in the past 12 months, where they have faced attacks by missiles, etc. The training is detailed. I have absolute confidence in some of the public order commanders. We have to understand that they are called to make really difficult judgment calls, balancing human rights of individuals and the recognition of their own staff and the public. They make difficult decisions in a short space of time. It is a credit to them as individuals and to the training processes that allow them to do that.

[Victoria Atkins]

Thank you.

[The Chair]

Minister Philp?

[Chris Philp]

Q Thank you. Based on your response to Alex Cunningham’s question, you may not be able to answer this, but I wanted to double check. Do you have any view on the proposals to reform out-of-court disposals, in particular to simplify the current six kinds of caution down to two kinds of caution, which has been trialled in three force areas over the past few years?

Chief Superintendent Griffiths: You are right to clarify that. Unfortunately, we have not been consulted on that particular aspect. If I can provide written evidence, we will explore a response and get back to you.

[Chris Philp]

Q Thank you. In that case, my only other question relates to the proposal to double the sentence for the assault of an emergency worker from 12 months to 24 months. Do you welcome that, and do you think it would have a deterrent effect on people who might decide to try to assault your officers in the course of their duties?

John Apter: Absolutely, the risk of a custodial sentence would be a meaningful deterrent, as well as everything else. As I said, it is about the training and equipment that officers and staff have. But I go back to my earlier point: the increase in sentencing will mean nothing if the sentencing guidelines do not allow the courts to use those powers effectively. Far too often, my colleagues feel that the wider criminal justice system lets them down. We need to address that, as well as increase sentences. Yes, I believe that it would be a deterrent.

Chief Superintendent Griffiths: It is very much welcome and supported. There is a hope that it will be a deterrent. We recognise that any sort of assault on emergency workers has a complex and dynamic number of factors that may cause that situation to arise. We must do everything in our power to eliminate or minimise every aspect of those factors. Hopefully, it will have a deterrent effect, and will send a very strong message from Parliament to emergency workers to say, “You are valued for what you do. We support you, and you should not have that sort of risk when trying to carry out your duties.” We will review the situation over time, to see what the deterrent effect is, but we are grateful for the support that Parliament proposes.

[Chris Philp]

Thank you. It may be worth you engaging with the Sentencing Council once the legislation passes, to ensure the sentencing guidelines reflect the seriousness of the offence, and that the sentences in practice reflect Parliament’s intention.

[The Chair]

Now is a good time to draw this session to a close. I thank the witnesses for their evidence this morning.