Parental Bereavement (Leave and Pay) Bill (Second sitting)
(Limited Text - Ministerial Extracts only)
Read Full debateThe Committee divided: - Ayes: 5 / Noes: 8 - Question accordingly negatived.
The Committee divided: - Ayes: 6 / Noes: 9 - Question accordingly negatived.
David Linden (Glasgow East) (SNP)
It is a pleasure to serve under your chairmanship, Mr Gray. I warmly commend the hon. Member for Thirsk and Malton for proposing this Private Member’s Bill. I also pay tribute to the hon. Member for Colchester, who proposed a similar Bill in the last Parliament. I am glad to see that the Bill has finally got Government support. I congratulate the Minister on his appointment to his post—we have had an exchange in the Chamber only this afternoon.
I rise to speak to amendments 3 and 10 in the name of myself and my hon. Friends the Members for North Ayrshire and Arran and for Paisley and Renfrewshire North. I also support amendments 11 and 20 in the names of the hon. Members for North West Durham and for Eddisbury. As my hon. Friend the Member for North Ayrshire and Arran set out, we in the SNP believe that this is fundamentally a good Bill. We welcome it, although we feel it could be strengthened to go even further.
Before speaking to the amendment, I pay tribute to Shaun Walsh of Together for Short Lives and Priyanka Patel of CLIC Sargent, who were both kind enough to brief me about the Bill and other issues, particularly those relating to children’s palliative care. I have been fortunate to visit CLIC Sargent’s social work team at Southern General Hospital in Glasgow, in my constituency.
Broadly, my interest in the Bill stems from two reasons. First, I have a longstanding interest in children’s palliative care policy. I declare an interest, as my mother is a children’s palliative carer for Icare Scotland. My second reason stems from my personal experience of becoming a father. Originally, my wife Roslyn and I were led to believe that having children would be very difficult, if it was possible at all. In February 2015, after some blood tests, we were told that Roslyn was in fact 19 weeks pregnant, and that due to her Type I diabetes it would be an incredibly complex pregnancy. Essentially, every time my wife injected insulin, which is required to keep her alive, our baby grew bigger; and as a result, so did his chances of dying. A couple of weeks later we were called in to Southern General Hospital and told that, due to the increasing size of our son, we had to brace ourselves for the possibility of a stillbirth. It was the hardest conversation we have ever had with anybody in the medical profession and as a married couple; it felt as though a train had hit us.
In the end, our son Isaac was born, almost two months premature and significantly overweight. He spent the first two weeks of his life in intensive care at Southern General Hospital, before moving on to special baby care. The doctors, nurses and staff at Southern General could not have been more loving and supportive. I know that all of us in this room have nothing but admiration and respect for the national health service staff who look after us. Many Members of this Committee have already shared their own deeply personal experiences of losing a child and I am incredibly mindful of the fact that our wee boy pulled through. For that I am nothing but thankful to God. It was during the darker times of being told to prepare for a stillbirth, and when Isaac was whisked away to intensive care after his birth without us, that we were left in shock and contemplating what losing a child could be like, on every level possible—be that practical or emotional. It is for that reason that we have come together on the Committee to ensure that a good Bill becomes an even better law.
Amendment 3, in my name and those of my hon. Friends the Members for North Ayrshire and Arran and for Paisley and Renfrewshire North, would extend the period within which bereavement leave must be taken from 56 days to 52 weeks. The rationale behind the amendment is to give more flexibility to parents who lose a child. Through my fundraising work with children’s hospices across Scotland, I have had the opportunity to visit Robin House in Balloch and meet parents whose children have a life-shortening or life-limiting condition. I have also spoken to families who have experienced the loss of a child. One of the clear messages and asks they have of us as policy makers and legislators is to allow more flexibility in when they can take bereavement leave.
My friend, Maria McGill, the chief executive of Children’s Hospices Across Scotland, often speaks of the importance of marking a child’s birthday and other such anniversaries, which is a significant part of the grieving process. If the Committee agrees to the amendment, parents would have more flexibility in the first year, rather than the first month or two, following their child’s death. In the grand scheme of things it would not cause a lot of difficulty to employers, but it would make a massive difference to families who have experienced bereavement.
The amendments in this group seek to make a good Bill and a better law. I ask the hon. Member for Thirsk and Malton, and all right hon. and hon. Members, to support amendment 3 in particular.
The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Business, Energy and Industrial Strategy (Andrew Griffiths)
Thank you for your continued chairmanship of this important Committee, Mr Gray. As I was listening to hon. Members debate these issues, I was thinking about how in this Committee it feels like we are never more than a word away from a tear. The palpable emotion we all feel in the room is powerful. I strongly commend all hon. Members who lay themselves bare by talking about their personal experiences; I know it is not easy at all.
From the hon. Member for North Ayrshire and Arran, it is easy to see the pain that remains. My hon. Friend the Member for Eddisbury introduced me to this issue when she spoke so movingly in the Chamber, as have my hon. Friends the Members for Banbury and for Colchester. Even last week, we saw the emotion of the hon. Member for Washington and Sunderland West (Mrs Hodgson) when, in the debate on the Civil Partnerships, Marriages and Deaths (Registration Etc.) Bill, she spoke about the loss of her child.
As you know, Mr Gray, my wife is seven months pregnant. We are overjoyed at that prospect, although Mrs Griffiths is getting slightly more uncomfortable and is daunted by the imminent arrival of Griffiths Jr. This debate makes us think about things we do not want to contemplate, and it is brave of hon. Members to lay themselves open to that. As Members of Parliament, we have little privacy these days. We regularly feel as though our every movement is laid bare to the public—we cannot even fall asleep in a hotel without someone taking a picture and putting it on Twitter.
To the point of the matter, I understand what colleagues are trying to achieve in the amendments. The period of time in which leave is taken, which amendments 3 and 20 seek to address, is key to getting the framework right. The time needed by each individual will vary according to their own way of dealing with the grief that comes from the loss.
As my hon. Friend the Member for Thirsk and Malton said, there is a balance to be struck, and I understand my hon. Friend the Member for Colchester when he says that we need to strike a balance between flexibility and certainty. I believe his approach to the Bill has been always to mirror existing provisions in legislation so that we do not create precedents, to ensure a smooth passage for the Bill. That is the right approach. It eliminates a lot of difficulties that might be the unintended consequence of what we agree in Committee. It also makes it easier for officials, business and the general public to understand the marrying of rights. In that respect, I agree that maintaining the suggested timeframe of at least 56 days, to maintain consistency with the other provisions, is a sensible approach.
However, I recognise that it would not be right if sticking to 56 days meant that the provision in this Bill did not do what we intend it to. The reason we are here today is to ensure that the leave suits and supports the bereaved parents and allows them what they need to grieve properly. For that reason, it is absolutely correct that we consult on this matter.
I know that the hon. Member for North West Durham would point to the fact that this is yet another consultation; pursuant to my urgent question earlier we had some exchanges on the merits or otherwise of consultation, but I want to be clear with members of the Committee about what the consultation is. It is our intention to launch the consultation in May, and I make a pledge to the members of the Committee that if they agree to it, it will report before Third Reading of the Bill, so that all members of this Committee and all Members of the House will be able to assess the consultation and see the range. Even in this room today we have a range of different views about how long the time should be.
We want to get it right and ensure that the time we put on the face of the Bill is the right time. Within that consultation, we will be able to talk to all the groups that have been mentioned today, and others, to get a proper understanding of the best timescale in which to deliver this.
Laura Pidcock
I know we are not talking about new clause 2, because that is gone and it would be terrible, but last week there were assurances that following the Taylor review, which is relevant to the amendments we are talking about now, it would respond to a lot of the concerns contained in new clause 2. Now there is a suggestion that there will be a consultation on this group of amendments. If the consultation comes back and says that, yes, flexibility is needed and it needs to be over six months rather than two months, will the Minister give us assurances now that the Government will accept those consultation findings?
Andrew Griffiths
I am sure the hon. Lady will accept that, obviously, I cannot write a blank cheque. If the consultation came back and suggested something that was simply unworkable or impracticable, of course I could not commit to that. What I can commit to is that the process will be open and transparent, and that all hon. Members will be able not only to contribute, but to see the evidence that is presented. It will be open and transparent.
David Linden
Given what the Minister is saying about the consultation process, will he give us a timeline on that, particularly for those members of the Committee who have been asked to withdraw amendments?
Andrew Griffiths
As I say, we will launch the consultation in May and it will report well in advance of Third Reading. If, at Third Reading, hon. Members are not satisfied with what we have agreed to on the consultation, they will be able to table amendments and we can have the debate on the Floor of the House. We can have a Division, and the whole House in its entirety can decide which of those dates—
The Chair
Order. To clarify, if the Minister will forgive me, I think he means on Report rather than at Third Reading.
Andrew Griffiths
“Elders and betters” is the phrase that springs to mind.
Clearly, at that stage hon. Members will be able not only to question me, as the Minister at the Dispatch Box, about the content of that consultation, but if they so wish, to table their own amendments and make their case to the House. I think that is the most equitable way for us to proceed and it shows an understanding of the real and positive intentions behind the amendments tabled today. I am just getting some divine inspiration; I need to clarify something I said. The consultation will actually be launched on Third Reading in May, so the Government’s report will be published before the Bill completes its passage through the House. I hope that is clear, and that I have clarified my position.
The Chair
Order. If the consultation is launched on Third Reading, it is not possible for its outcome to be considered before the completion of the Bill’s consideration. I suspect that the Minister means the Bill’s passage through both Houses.
Andrew Griffiths
That is exactly what I mean. I also commit to revisit this, and to see if there is a way that we can publish the consultation earlier and allow it to report before Third Reading. I will do my level best and I will talk to officials and see if that is possible. I want as wide a consultation as possible.
Patricia Gibson
For clarity—I ask the Minister to forgive me if he has already said this—is he saying that although he will not accept the amendments today, he is not closing the door and is vowing to return to them?
Andrew Griffiths
The hon. Lady hits the nail on the head. I want to make sure that we get this right. We have already heard that we have a number of different views on the number of days, so I want to allow everybody to consider, in a very calm way, the best advice possible and to come to a definitive decision about the days. I am closing nothing down. I am saying that all these options are on the table, and I am happy to consider all of them, should they be recommended by results of the consultation.
Gavin Newlands (Paisley and Renfrewshire North) (SNP)
It is a pleasure to see a fellow west coast Scot in the Chair, Mr Gray.
Gavin Newlands
Hear, hear. I thoroughly commend the hon. Member for Thirsk and Malton for bringing forward a very commendable Bill, which Scottish National party Members have no problem whatever in supporting.
I will speak briefly to amendments 3 and 10 in the names of my hon. Friends and me. However, before I do, I am pleased to hear that the Minister is in listening mode. Given the exchange that just took place, I urge him to try to bring that consultation forward, so that we in the elected body can perhaps influence those decisions. Obviously, the SNP does not have any Members in the House of Lords, so we would like to influence the Bill on this side of its passage, if at all possible.
Gavin Newlands
Well.
I pay tribute to all Members who have shared their experiences of the tragic loss of a child, and who are using those painful experiences to make such a traumatic and tragic period just a little bit easier for those who follow them. Sadly, just under a fortnight ago, along with hundreds of others in Renfrew, I attended the funeral of little Layla Greene, who at just three years old was one of the latest victims of the scourge of childhood cancer. The Minister was obviously correct earlier on. Her parents had been told that she had weeks and months to live, so as a community we fundraised to help make memories for Layla and her family. Sadly, she was only to live for just one more week, but we will continue to fundraise in her memory.
Anything that we can do to reduce any unnecessary stress on families such as Layla’s is not only something that we should do but something that we must do. I speak to amendments 3 and 10 not only because I think they are the right thing to do, but because of my experience as both an employer and a friend. I obviously cannot speak as powerfully, or share deeply painful and personal experiences, as my hon. Friend the Member for North Ayrshire and Arran and others have.
Similar to my hon. Friend the Member for Glasgow East, my interest in this issue stems from a close-run thing. My wife had to give birth to my oldest daughter six and half weeks prematurely, by emergency caesarean. We were the lucky ones because thankfully, they are healthy, but since then I have been interested in trying to advance these issues.
Having said that, unfortunately I have shared the pain of friends who have had to go through this experience. One of those friends was an employee. I struggled to separate my roles of friend and boss. I was somewhat constrained in the paid support that I could technically offer within the company’s employment regulations at the time. I could offer her as much unpaid leave as I saw fit at my discretion, but ultimately, that does not pay the bills.
In many ways, if we are honest, two weeks is a totally inadequate period of time in which to recover from the death of a child sufficiently to return to work. I tried to find ways around it, whether through holiday pay or sick pay, which from memory was £85 a week—it is not much more now. She was signed off for periods as well, although she did not want to do that. Financial distress is the last thing that anyone needs on top of the most traumatic experience of their life, so the premise of paid leave is a very good thing.
To address the flexibility issue raised in amendments 10 and 3, I would say that people deal with trauma in different ways. No one will ever forget such a traumatic experience, but I am told by my friend that after a time, it was possible to compartmentalise, to work and to concentrate on the job at hand. Others will go through periods of struggling to cope after returning to work and might need time off as a result. Flexibility about the period in which people can take any leave might suit a lot of parents in this situation.
As has already been outlined, another reason is to ensure that paid leave can be taken around significant dates. For example, my friends visit the grave marker at specific points every year. Anything that helps to make those difficult journeys that bit easier is to be welcomed.
The compassionate leave policy at my old employer has significantly improved, and that is the case at many employers in the UK now, but it is our job in Parliament to ensure that everyone is covered appropriately.
Patricia Gibson
As has already been said this week and last week, we are all treading very carefully on broken glass. We are terrified to do or ask for the wrong thing, in case it upsets the whole apple-cart. I draw comfort from the fact that the Minister is not saying no. From what I understand, he is saying not yet.
Andrew Griffiths
I thank my hon. Friend the Member for Colchester for that important point. We want to ensure that we get the best deal for bereaved parents and that through all these deliberations we come out at the end giving as much support as possible. There are unintended consequences, as he has pointed out, that we need to take into consideration.
It may help the Committee if I explain that consultations with employers’ groups took place last summer. Those groups indicated that the majority of their members already had a bereavement leave policy in place. That is great; we are all very pleased about that. The Chartered Institute of Personnel and Development’s survey found that two thirds of businesses that responded already provide bereavement leave—that would be at the full pay that my hon. Friend alluded to—and that 40% give five days paid, and 25% give three days paid. Businesses also often provide more generous unpaid leave entitlement. At the discussions, employers’ groups also gave reassurances that employers welcome the introduction of the Bill.
Patricia Gibson
I just wanted to suggest to the Minister that if employers are already quite generous and understanding in such tragic circumstances, it shows that there is a recognition that such space should already be provided by the law, rather than employers having to make up policy for their own businesses. As a Parliament we should be taking a lead in saying that we recognise that employers, on the whole, realise and understand that this has to be done, so let us enshrine it in law because we all seem to agree. If there is the odd rogue employer that does not—you know?
Andrew Griffiths
What we would not want though is a situation where employers say that they do not need to have a policy in place because there is already a statutory requirement. In other areas, such as maternity, there is a statutory pay period and some businesses enhance that, but the vast majority do not. We need a consultation to properly understand, because I would hate for this to be the minimum and for that to be what is expected, rather than businesses stepping up to the plate and offering the generous terms that they already do. The hon. Member for North West Durham is itching to—
Andrew Griffiths
I was about to say that the hon. Lady is itching to intervene, but actually she was just itching.
We all know too well that the realities of bereaved parents are sometimes very different. The fact is that those who work for less accommodating employers need this Bill the most. I understand the point that is being made. My hon. Friend the Member for Thirsk and Malton also pointed out existing leave provisions, which are already helpful and should not be ignored. The Bill will provide an important statutory minimum that employers must adhere to, giving key legal protections to parents who suffer a tragic loss. This policy sets an important benchmark without preventing employers from enhancing it if they wish. We know that the majority of employers try to do the right thing.
I hate to use the defence that I have used at other times during this debate, but a consultation is being held. This will be part of the consultation, which will report before the end of the Bill’s passage. With that in mind, and bearing in mind the points that have been made, I ask that the amendment be withdrawn.
David Linden
I find myself in a difficult position. I am minded to press the amendment to a vote, but it would be the first time I have divided the Committee, which in the light of my earlier comments is not something that I want to do. A lot has been said about the fragility of the Bill and the difficulty of getting it through Parliament, but one thing that has not been acknowledged is that we are in a two-year Parliament, so it is not as if we have to get the Bill passed before Prorogation in March.
Patricia Gibson
I beg to move amendment 6, in schedule, page 2, line 35, leave out from “means” to end and insert
“a son or daughter of any age”.
This amendment would change the definition of “child”, for the purpose of parental bereavement leave, to a son or daughter of any age.
Patricia Gibson
I would not want to diminish in any way the loss of a husband or wife, but the Bill was introduced in the first place because of the particularly unnatural order of circumstances in which someone buries their own child. It is entirely different. I do not pretend to judge whether one grief is worse than the other, but it goes against nature for someone to bury their own child. It does not necessarily go against nature to bury a husband or wife. That is in the normal scheme of things that we ultimately all have to face, but nobody expects to bury their own children. A child is a person’s investment in the future. I really do not see the equivalence; otherwise, we could have a Bill about bereavement, not a parental bereavement Bill. It is a parental bereavement Bill because we, as a Parliament, recognise the particular circumstances of someone burying their own son or daughter. I hope that I have answered the question that the hon. Gentleman put to me.
I really hope that the Minister and the whole Committee will reflect on this matter, and consider my amendment a worthy addition to the Bill. As I said last week, the benefits, both social and emotional, will surely outweigh any financial costs, which I really do not think will be significant in terms of overall Treasury spend. The Minister will no doubt want to correct me on that.
Andrew Griffiths
The hon. Lady says she does not think it will be significant. Does she have any evidence or figures to back up her amendment?
Patricia Gibson
I would simply refer the Minister to what I said last week: we know that people who lose sons or daughters are eight times more likely than their peers to divorce. We know that there is a social cost of divorce. There is also a cost to the Government in terms of economic activity if people fall out of the workforce because they are not coping. That is why support is so important at that critical stage of vulnerability and grief.
Antoinette Sandbach
I saw the hon. Lady’s amendment and given that the Minister is consulting on a number of matters, I hope he might consider extending the consultation to the amendments. Where there is a high level of recognised dependency, the bond between parent and child is very high, largely because parents in the main, although it is often women who do this, have been carers at a level not necessarily offered in other circumstances.
I am not saying that the grief is any less, but that level of contact with the child will extend beyond the age of 18, whereas in other circumstances many children will have left home and be living independent lives. This is a probing amendment, but one the Government would do well to address, because I suspect there will be easily-available figures from Government data for the number of people covered. The Minister should be able to find that information fairly easily, although there might be implications for that extension.
Andrew Griffiths
This has been a very thoughtful and interesting debate. I draw the Committee’s attention back to the first speech by my hon. Friend the Member for Colchester. I think he used the phrase “do not let the perfect be the enemy of the good”.
Members new to the House might not realise that this is the third time that an hon. Member has tried to take through a Bill on parental bereavement leave. The first attempt by Tom Harris was unsuccessful, as was the next by my hon. Friend the Member for Colchester. This is the first time not only that such a Bill has got to this stage, but that any Government have given it backing.
Many Members will say it is outrageous that in 2018 we do not have those rights in statute. I would agree, but the reality is that we do not. There are many reasons for that, given by many Governments of many colours and of different make-up, and for why such a Bill has been resisted. We have an opportunity this time to get a Bill across the line. I politely say to the hon. Member for Glasgow East that, although I understand his desire to press his amendment, he will risk the passage of the Bill if it is used as a Christmas tree on which to hang all our aspirations.
The Bill provides the minimum that we would like to see for bereaved parents in this area, but we need to get it on the statute book. We can have as many lofty aspirations as we wish and we can desire to set the bar as high as we like, but we need to make this real. Various Governments of various colours have been unable to commit to do that, and this is the first time that a Government have committed to support the legislation and make it law. I politely and gently encourage hon. Members to think about that before they decide to press amendments that could risk the Bill’s potential.
To speak to the substance of the amendments, where to draw a line on age was always going to be difficult. I recognise why hon. Members suggest the dates they do. A lost life is always terrible, even more so when a child has not had the chance to live to adulthood. The loved ones who survive that child are left rebuilding and coping in a way that is difficult to imagine for those of us who are fortunate enough never to have been in that position.
Amendments 6 and 7 propose to extend this provision to parents of children of any age. The Bill applies to parents of children under the age of 18. Much as I agree with my hon. Friend the Member for Thirsk and Malton, and would like the Bill to cover parents of all children who have passed away irrespective of age, to do so would have financial implications that cannot be ignored. I draw the Committee’s attention to the Exchequer estimate that the annual cost of statutory bereavement pay would be between £1.2 million and £2 million, with a best estimate of £1.77 million. The estimated cost to business––the employer––is £1.45 million and we estimate that, as drafted, the Bill will cover 5,600 parents.
The hon. Member for North West Durham sheepishly proposes the numbers in the Library note that she has received, and I do not disagree with those: she estimates 29,000 parents for children up to the age of 40. Look at the magnitude of the change from 5,600 to 29,000, when the cost is £2 million for the lower figure. We see how the cost of the Bill suddenly begins to increase dramatically. I urge caution, because there are other things to consider when we look at the Bill’s viability and future. The broader the Bill’s coverage, the more it will cost both the state and employers, in terms of absence costs. I therefore believe that the right balance is to ensure that parents of children up to the age of 18 are covered by the Bill.
I do not for one second underestimate the devastation of a parent losing a child at any age. I look to my own experience. My Auntie Ann had a seriously mentally and physically handicapped daughter called Margaret, who died at the age of 56. She had never been out of a wheelchair in her life, and my Auntie Ann was by then a widow in her late 70s. She was absolutely devastated by the loss of Margaret. As a family, we had always assumed that Auntie Ann would go and we would make provision to care for Margaret. The shock when Margaret was diagnosed with cancer and died very quickly hit the whole family. I do not for one minute underestimate the loss of a child at any age, but, for the sake of securing the Bill, I think we have to draw a line.
Laura Pidcock
I do not wish to use the other side’s argument against myself, and perhaps I could have done this in a slightly different way, but the point has been made that there might be someone who has only their parents to sort out all the arrangements after that person’s death. Does the Minister acknowledge that that may be the case with someone who has had a lifelong dependency on their parents and that that requires consideration?
Andrew Griffiths
I understand the hon. Lady’s premise. I understand that, looking from the outside, it is easy to make bespoke cases for bespoke situations. All those are valid and have strong reasoning behind them, but I return to the point made by my hon. Friend the Member for Colchester: we cannot let the perfect be the enemy of the good. Unfortunately, we have to draw a line in the sand.
Will Quince
I beg to move amendment 25, in the schedule, page 2, line 35, at end insert
“(see also section 80EE for the application of this Chapter in relation to stillbirths)”.
This amendment is consequential on Amendment 26.
Andrew Griffiths
I hope I can give some comfort to the Committee. I begin by echoing the sentiments of my hon. Friend the Member for Thirsk and Malton and pay tribute to those who have had the strength and courage to share with us some very moving experiences. Any death is difficult to comprehend, and stillbirth is no different.
My hon. Friend included in the Bill a power to extend the entitlement to include the parents of stillborn children, and explained, very clearly, the rationale for doing exactly that. I have thought about this long and hard, and I am supportive of the rationale and the position. The reasoning, to my mind, was clear, coherent and sound. I just add that, by including stillbirth—which affects 3,300 children a year—more than 6,000 additional parents will be covered by the provisions in the amendment.
My hon. Friend the Member for Colchester was right to ask whether a line should exist in terms of the provision for a child who has been born still and a child who has taken a single breath and then died. What a conundrum, what a decision—to differentiate between the griefs of a parent whose child has taken a breath and one whose child has not. I speak as somebody who is eagerly awaiting that first breath. I cannot imagine the anguish and devastation that would come.
My hon. Friend was right to recognise that in asking that question. He did not have the answer, and therefore a delegated power was the most sensible option—I understand that. However, amendments have been tabled, and we have had the chance to further debate this, and I thank my hon. Friend in particular for the constructive way in which he has engaged with me, as the Minister, on the Bill, together with my hon. Friend the Member for Thirsk and Malton.
I have to say that the Government have changed their mind, and I have changed my mind. We have come to the point where we agree with my hon. Friend’s conclusion. Whether parents take time off is not a decision for any of us in this room to take; it is to be made by those in that position at the time. If they require the time, they should have the option to take that time. If they do not require that time, they do not have to take the time off. Following the decision of my hon. Friend the Member for Thirsk and Malton to accept the amendment, the Government accept it as well.
Kevin Hollinrake
I am very grateful to the Minister for his consideration. This is something that we have discussed much in our deliberations, both with Committee members and in the House at various stages.
Stillbirth was first brought to my attention because of my constituents Annika and James Dowson—my hon. Friends the Members for Banbury and for Eddisbury are very aware of their case—and their little daughter, Gypsy. They said they had never heard their baby cry, which must be a desperate state of affairs for anyone who has been through those tragic events. They directed their grief into a very positive campaign to raise money to fund a bereavement suite at Scarborough hospital. It is tremendous to see the resilience and determination that people show in these circumstances; I am not sure I could do the same.
Luke and Ruthie Heron are also constituents of mine. Their little son, Eli, was brought into this world at 23 weeks and six days. He lived for two days. He was stillborn. Had he not lived for those two days, it would have been defined as a miscarriage. This is being discussed in relation to legislation going through the House at the moment. I have constituents who have experience of this.
I am delighted that the Government have agreed to support the amendments. The hon. Member for North Ayrshire and Arran was the first hon. Member to table an amendment on the matter. I am sure that the Government’s support for the other amendment is a purely technical decision, not a political one—it is about drafting. They have done a tremendous job of ensuring that we get the legislation right, so that we do not suffer any negative consequences later on. I ask the hon. Members for North Ayrshire, for Glasgow East and for Paisley and Renfrewshire North not to press their amendments and instead to support the amendment tabled by my hon. Friend the Member for Colchester.
Laura Pidcock
I want to echo the sentiments of the hon. Member for Glasgow East and probe a bit further on this issue. I am obviously not going to talk about the Taylor review, but we want to think about day one rights. I am still not clear who will qualify for what. Were the amendment agreed, it would provide an exceptional right that could not be applied to other bits of legislation. I completely understand why holiday has to be accrued, but the provision is exceptional.
To ground the Committee, the right would apply to such a small amount of people in the grand scale of the population. It seems morally absurd that someone employed for 24 weeks, 18 weeks or even four weeks could not qualify. No one plans for their child to die. People take a job in the good faith that they can do that job. It would be remiss of us not to include the amendment. That is my feeling.
Andrew Griffiths
I thank my hon. Friend the Member for Thirsk and Malton again for his comments on the amendments. I agree with the points he made. It is right that the Government maintain a consistent approach across employment rights, because that reduces familiarisation costs for employers and ensures that they are operating within a framework they understand. Let us keep it simple and straightforward.
The hon. Members for Glasgow East and for North West Durham are right. They mentioned the Taylor review. I am proud that this Government are trying to enhance the protections for workers and their eligibility to rights within the workplace. We are looking at day one rights within the work of the Taylor review. Taylor is looking at extending the break-in-service provisions from one week to four weeks, but the 26-week qualifying period will remain. Within Taylor we are consulting and looking to bring forward greater rights, but when dealing with this Bill it is important that we do not reference a Bill that is behind us in the sausage machine. We have to have consistency now. We can only be consistent with the legislation as it stands; we cannot look over the horizon at what might be coming.
Gavin Newlands
I understand the Minister’s point, but can he clarify one thing for me? A situation not dissimilar to this happened before I came to this place. If an employee happens to work for 15 years for one employer without a single day off—they are an exemplary employee—and then seeks to advance through employment elsewhere and works for that new employer for 25 weeks, they would not fall into the scope of bereavement leave. Another employee, who has been in employment for 27 weeks with an entirely blemished record—perhaps they have received verbal warnings or taken days off here and there without permission—would be covered by the Bill. Will the Minister clarify that that that would be the case?
Andrew Griffiths
I understand the point that the hon. Gentleman makes, but he also must understand that there are costs involved with all these things. While in an ideal world—funds permitting—we would wish to extend all these kinds of benefits to allow greater access, we have to cut our cloth. While I understand his point, the qualifying periods are long established for many of these benefits. I hope he understands that.
In my capacity as the Minister responsible for small business, I keep on getting speeches that say I am the small business Minister. I told the Secretary of State for Wales that he was better qualified for that title than I, but he did not see the joke either. Because I talk to organisations such as the FSB on a daily basis, and to small and medium-sized enterprises up and down the country, I am particularly aware and conscious of, and attuned to, the effects that these amendments may have on small business. I think everybody in the room will be attuned to those too.
Laura Pidcock
I shall be brief. I probably will not speak again, so I want to place on record again my thanks to the hon. Member for Thirsk and Malton for this Bill and the passion and discipline that has been shown to try to get it through Parliament. I agree that something is better than nothing—for those in the grieving period, £148.98 is definitely better than £0 in a week—but I want to place on record that we must acknowledge that for the lowest paid, taking that time, just like going on to statutory maternity pay, has a financial impact and that exacerbates the difficult situation people may already be in. We also have to acknowledge that in the worst case situation, some people might not actually take that entitlement at all, because they could not afford the impact on their pay in that week. We have to acknowledge that, however brilliant the premise and skeleton of this is, it will exclude some people on the lowest pay for financial reasons.
Andrew Griffiths
My hon. Friend the Member for Thirsk and Malton raised a good point about mirroring existing legislation in order to make the familiarisation process for employers more straightforward. We have heard that time and time again throughout this Bill. It is an important point and one I agree with. Managing bereavement in a workplace is not an easy task, so keeping it simple, stupid, is a good mantra. The Bill should be viewed as a base-level right for those who find themselves in this position. My hon. Friend said quite clearly that this Bill does not prevent employers from enhancing their offer, if they would like to make full pay. I hope that hon. Members will agree that this amendment should not be pursued and that the hon. Member for Glasgow East is content to withdraw it.
David Linden
I have listened to what the hon. Member for Thirsk and Malton and the Minister have said. On that basis I am happy to withdraw the amendment. This is probably the last contribution that I will make in this Committee. I found serving on this Committee a challenging experience for a number of reasons, but I want to pay tribute to all members of the Committee. This has been an incredibly difficult topic to go through and on the whole it has been done with a degree of courtesy on all parts. I look forward to the Bill returning to the House. I beg to ask leave to withdraw the amendment.
Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
Amendments made: 28, in the schedule, page 9, line 18, at end insert
‘(see also section 171ZZ15 for the application of this Part in relation to stillbirths)’.
This amendment is consequential on Amendment 29.
Amendment 29, in the schedule, page 10, leave out lines 40 to 46 and insert—
‘171ZZ15 Application in relation to stillbirths
In this Part—
(a) references to a child include a child stillborn after twenty-four weeks of pregnancy, and
(b) references to the death of a child are to be read, in relation to a stillborn child, as references to the birth of the child.’
This amendment extends the provisions about statutory parental bereavement pay to bereaved parents of stillborn children.
Amendment 30, in the schedule, page 11, leave out line 3.—(Will Quince.)
This amendment is consequential on Amendment 29.
Schedule, as amended, agreed to.
Bill, as amended, to be reported.