High Speed Rail (London-West Midlands) Bill
The Chairman of Committees
That, as proposed by the Committee of Selection, the following members be appointed to the Select Committee to consider the High Speed Rail (London–West Midlands) Bill:
L Brabazon of Tara, L Freeman, L Jones of Cheltenham, B O’Cathain, L Plant of Highfield, L Walker of Gestingthorpe (Chairman), L Young of Norwood Green,
That the quorum of the Committee be four;
That the Committee have power to adjourn from place to place;
That the evidence taken by the Committee be published, if the Committee so wishes;
That the Report of the Committee be printed, regardless of any adjournment of the House;
That the order of appointment of the Committee remain in force notwithstanding the prorogation of Parliament.
Amendment to the Motion
Lord Bradshaw
As an amendment to the above Motion, after “place;”, insert “That the Committee have power to take advice from a technical expert;”
Lord Bradshaw (LD)
My Lords, neither I nor my noble friend Lord Berkeley wishes to detain the House long. However, since we had the debate in the House, real misgivings about the cost of this scheme have emanated from the Cabinet Office, and I believe the need for economy is very strong. I say that as someone who has a lot of experience with these things.
One of the things the committee should consider—I am not giving it an instruction—is the appointment of a technical engineering expert to get under the costs which HS2 Ltd is proposing: I can nominate people who will not charge the earth. I believe there are billions of pounds to be saved if we can unpick the HS2 figures.
One of the issues is very important, namely whether Old Oak Common can be the phase 1 terminal. It will have six platforms, which is quite adequate to deal with the trains from Birmingham. They can be turned round in that space. It would then give time to sort out the huge costs and disruption proposed at the London end and in Camden. These issues were not properly examined by the Commons committee, which ran out of either time or energy to give them proper consideration. I suggest that the committee should consider starting its work not at the Birmingham end, as the Commons committee did, but at the London end, where the real costs are.
One of the most important things surrounds rolling stock. HS2 is proposing or considering using rolling stock which is not compatible with the rest of the network and is capable of running at very high speeds. I believe that both those things need to be challenged very strongly. It will reduce the cost of the rolling stock by billions of pounds if we have slightly lower speeds and rolling stock which is compatible with the rest of the network, not unlike the Javelin trains from St Pancras into Kent but, obviously, made better for intercity travel. The journey from Birmingham will not take very long—probably about only 38 or 40 minutes—and many noble Lords travel far further than that in commuting to their homes.
I stress that it is not European regulation that is driving HS2 to bring in world specifications. They are not necessary on our railway. This is a domestic railway—not an international one—and I believe it is important that these things are brought to the forefront of the committee’s considerations.
Lord Berkeley (Lab)
My Lords, I shall speak briefly to all four amendments, two of which are in my name. First, I congratulate the Chairman of Committees on the quality of the committee that he is announcing today. There is a lot of talent and experience there, as one would expect from your Lordships’ House, but I also know that under the chairmanship of the noble and learned Lord, Lord Walker of Gestingthorpe, the committee’s procedures will be conducted properly and fairly. As the noble Lord, Lord Ahmad, said in a letter to most noble Lords who spoke in the last debate, this will be a proceeding under quasi-judicial conditions. That is very important and I certainly welcome it.
I turn to the amendment of the noble Lord, Lord Bradshaw, concerning the committee taking advice from a technical expert. My worry is to do with timing. The experience of the House of Commons Select Committee was that there was no time for people to bring in their own technical experts because the hearings were very much truncated, and in my view the committee ended up taking advice from the promoter without questioning any of it at all. I was particularly concerned when I read a letter from a number of groups in Camden—the Camden Cutting Group, the HS2 Euston Action Group and the Camden Civic Society—to the chief executive of HS2, basically saying that the consultation that was supposed to have taken place had not worked at all. That is supported by two other reports—those by PACAC and Bynoe. The Bynoe report says:
“We are concerned that HS2 has failed to identify with what we believe to be the root cause of the”,
consultation,
“forums’ failings: namely that the process was treated as a one way ‘box-ticking’ exercise by HS2 Ltd, with no genuine two way engagement”.
Many noble Lords have been involved in consultation processes, as have I. Some are good and some are bad, but this is some of the worst criticism that I have ever seen, and I trust that HS2 and Ministers will take note and put it right.
My final comment concerns my amendment to the Motion that would leave out the words,
“if the Committee so wishes”,
to publish evidence. I am surprised at this being in the instruction because, after all, the evidence is given in public hearings of the committee. I envisage a slippery slope—not with this committee but it would be possible—where the hearings are held in secret and there is no justification for the committee’s decisions. I argue that all evidence should be published, or that at least there should be a public link to a publication in another journal, so that anyone can read all the documentation referred to or produced as part of the committee hearings.
Lord Grocott (Lab)
My Lords, I want to make a brief comment. In many ways, it is a great strength of our democracy in both Houses that projects such as HS2 are subject to the most intense scrutiny over a long period. By the setting up of this Select Committee, we are now moving on to a further period of intense scrutiny. I am minded of two factors when I refer to this. First, why is it that other countries—notably France, but also countries much further away such as Japan and China—seem to manage to build high-speed railways at a phenomenal rate of knots in comparison with our procedures, bearing in mind, as I said, that it is important that there is proper scrutiny? Secondly, we in this House ought to be particularly mindful of the fact that the first attempt to build a railway from London to Birmingham in the 1830s was thrown out by this House. I am very happy to say that the judgment of their Lordships in that period was eventually overruled, otherwise I do not know how we would get from here to Birmingham—by stage-coach, I suppose.
Sometimes, it is almost impossible to get projects going because of the interminable mechanisms involved before the go-ahead can be given. I know that the Chairman of Committees is not speaking for the Government, but I congratulate the Government on continuing this project. It is of fundamental importance to the economy in the West Midlands and, indeed, to the country as a whole. However, I hope that it is not part of the Chairman’s remit when he responds to indicate how long this committee is likely to be sitting. I hope that it does its job thoroughly but does not take an interminable length of time.
The Chairman of Committees (Lord Laming)
My Lords, I am extremely grateful to the noble Lords, Lord Bradshaw and Lord Berkeley, and indeed the noble Lord, Lord Grocott, for their very positive contributions to this important debate. I am sure the House will agree with the point made by the noble Lord, Lord Berkeley, that we are grateful to the noble and learned Lord, Lord Walker, and to members of the committee who have taken on this task. As the noble Lord, Lord Grocott, said, it is an important task and I think that we handle this matter in a very open and positive way in this country. I am sure that the committee that has taken on this task is mindful of the need to get on with it. I am full of admiration for members’ willingness to devote so much time to this process in order that it can be done in a timely manner.
The amendment in the name of the noble Lord, Lord Bradshaw, is about a technical expert adviser. The hybrid Bill procedure means that the committee operates in a quasi-judicial manner and hears the evidence presented to it by the parties transparently and in public. Advice from a specialist adviser would not be public, and that could undermine that commitment to transparency. However, we intend to look again at the hybrid Bill procedure, with a view to seeing whether there are practices which could be improved. In that exercise, we will consider further the point made by the noble Lord with a view to the procedure used for future hybrid Bills. It would not be appropriate, however, to institute changes before that process has taken place.
The second amendment, in the name of the noble Lord, Lord Berkeley, proposes taking away the standard power given to committees to publish evidence,
“if the Committee so wishes”.
It is usual for committees to publish evidence and, as I am sure is known to many noble Lords, the convention is that all evidence is published shortly after receipt unless there are extenuating circumstances. The power to publish evidence is routinely given to Select Committees in these terms as it allows them to publish evidence, including transcripts of oral evidence sessions, during the course of their inquiry rather than only when they report.
On the instruction to the committee proposed by the noble Lord, Lord Bradshaw,
“to focus on petitions where substantial costs savings could be achieved”,
I anticipate that the committee will consider all the petitions equally and fairly. It would not be appropriate to instruct the committee to focus on particular petitions at the expense of others. As important as costs are, they are but one factor among many. The relative merit to be attributed to petitions is in my judgment a matter rightly to be left to the committee to manage.
Finally, in relation to the second instruction, it is for the committee to decide on its own days and hours of sittings. As I have indicated, its members have set aside such time to this project that we should be grateful to them. I know that noble Lords are aware of the significant time commitment but also of the committee’s willingness to do this in timely manner.
I hope that it will not be necessary for this House to give an instruction. On that basis, I hope that the noble Lord will withdraw the amendment and that neither he nor the noble Lord, Lord Berkeley, will consider that the remaining amendments and instructions should be moved.
Lord Bradshaw
I do not want to prolong this, but I underline the point that what the noble Lord has said makes it very difficult for the huge economies that can be made in this scheme to be bought out. The petitioners cannot afford to present their technical evidence because it costs a lot of money, but if the committee were to take the initiative at least to take the advice of somebody, I am sure that we would come to quite different conclusions. HS2 has had a monopoly on the input; it is time that was tested.
Lord Richard (Lab)
Surely it is within the remit of the committee, if it wants to hear expert evidence, to call an expert in front of it to give it. As I understood it, if the committee wants guidance, it can call evidence, the evidence is heard and cross-examined and it becomes part of the evidence of the committee.
The Chairman of Committees
The committee will have to rely on the evidence from the petitioners.
Lord Berkeley
Leave out “, if the Committee so wishes”.
Lord Berkeley’s amendment not moved.
Lord Bradshaw
That it be an instruction to the Select Committee on the Bill that they should be able to focus on petitions where substantial savings could be achieved.
Lord Bradshaw
I do not wish to prolong this. I am very unhappy with the response that I have had from the Chairman of Committees, which relies on precedent rather than focusing on the fact that we could save millions of pounds if the evidence were tested rigorously.
Lord Berkeley
That it be an Instruction to the Select Committee on the bill that they conduct their proceedings for as long as they think fit.