The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Home Office (Lord Bates) (Con)
I join your Lordships in paying tribute to the noble Baroness, Lady Prashar, for introducing this debate, for the way in which she introduced it and for the excellent report prepared by the committee, and I pay tribute to the members of that committee. This is part of the process that we agreed, that your Lordships’ House would have a say on these measures, when they come forward, and that there should be a report. We have a report, which is very clear in its recommendations, and I will turn to those in my remarks. It was also agreed that your Lordships should have an opportunity to debate, which is what is happening now. Of course, all that should happen before Her Majesty’s Government have actually reached a decision on whether to opt in at this stage. No decision has been made, so the comments that would be made in your Lordships’ House are pertinent, relevant and will be taken very seriously into consideration.
Before I turn to some of the specific points that have been raised, part of the system for considering these matters involves a formal government response to the report and requires the Government to update the House on their position. So while not losing track of the questions that have been raised from around the House, I will just put these remarks on the record.
I am grateful to the noble Baroness, Lady Prashar, and her committee for calling this debate and I am pleased that we have had such a wide-ranging discussion. The Government have not yet decided whether to opt in to this measure at this stage. The arguments are finely balanced. We recognise the work of CEPOL and its current mission to bring together senior police officers from across Europe to encourage cross-border co-operation in the fight against crime. However, we also need to retain national control over the training of our law enforcement agencies, and there are elements of the draft measures that cause us some concerns. We therefore need to decide whether it would be better to opt in at this stage and use our vote in the negotiations to try to improve the proposal or to stay out for now and reconsider our position once the final text is agreed. Both options are open to us at this stage. I should say, of course, that they are open to us at this stage because the previous Government negotiated the justice and home affairs opt-out, so we are simply exercising an opt-out that they provided for us.
I want to be clear that we support CEPOL as it currently operates. CEPOL courses help the UK and UK law enforcement officers to build contacts across Europe, as has been mentioned by a number of noble Lords, and to exchange best practice in fighting crime. The training also provides personal development, strengthens partnerships and develops networks and co-operation, as well as providing the opportunity to share experiences. However, we are worried that some aspects of the new proposals would go beyond that and allow CEPOL and the wider EU to dictate aspects of our police training programmes. That is a very different thing.
The professionalism and training of the police and other law enforcement agencies should be led and developed by those organisations themselves, at a national or local level, and not by the EU. We believe that the focus of an EU-wide law enforcement training strategy should be to encourage member states to collaborate on matters that are mutually beneficial but to avoid telling us how to train our police. Provisions within the existing CEPOL Council decision are more than adequate to encourage member states to work together where appropriate. I am pleased that the committee chaired by the noble Baroness, Lady Prashar, sympathises with our concerns, including her proposals for a national unit and scientific committee. The commission’s proposals give CEPOL a much broader role than it currently has in law enforcement training, significantly expanding the EU’s responsibilities.
The Government believe that it should be for member states to define and determine which law enforcement officers may benefit from CEPOL’s activities. We are not at present convinced of the need for the law enforcement training scheme—known as LETS—and are concerned about the reference to this regulation in the text, which would make LETS legally binding on member states—this addresses the point that the noble Lord, Lord Sharkey, made about outlining the nature of our concerns. I know that several member states agree with us that all references to LETS within the regulation should be removed for this very reason.
Therefore, the question is whether we should opt in and use the vote—we would then have to help negotiate the proposals that concern us—or whether we should stay out for now, still participate in the negotiations, although without a vote, and consider applying to opt in post-adoption. Of course, the proposal is subject to qualified majority voting and co-decision with the European Parliament, so if we did opt in, we could still be outvoted and would then be bound by the outcome even if we did not get the changes that we were seeking.
A decision to stay out at this stage would not necessarily exclude us from CEPOL for ever. We would remain involved in the negotiations and would have another chance to take part once the measure had been adopted. That would give us the advantage of knowing exactly what the regulation would require of us before we signed up to it—which was precisely the point that was negotiated by the previous Government when they included that opt-out provision in the JHA. However, the disadvantage of having no vote in the negotiations is one which we are very mindful of, which is the point that the noble Baroness, Lady Smith, raised in her remarks. Even if we were not to opt in, I can assure the House that the UK’s voice will still be heard and listened to in the negotiations. Those negotiations are ongoing; we have officials attending Council working groups on the text as we speak, as they have been doing during this week and last week. That is very clear from Europol, a measure to which the committee of the noble Baroness, Lady Prashar, rightly attaches great importance. There we did not opt in pre-adoption but have secured some quite significant improvements to the text on Europol’s power to request investigation and to the duty of member states to supply it with information. So there are arguments either way. The Government have not yet decided at this stage which option they will propose.
The noble Baroness’s committee has argued that it is inevitable that we must adopt the regulation at some stage. In its view, it would be unworkable for the UK to be bound by the current Council decision, while other member states would be working with the provisions of the new regulation. The committee feels that this would in turn be likely to trigger the procedure under Article 4(a) of Protocol 21 of the Treaty of the Functioning of the European Union, resulting in the UK’s ejection from CEPOL. This regulation would repeal the existing 2005 CEPOL Council decision, to which the noble Lord, Lord Hannay, referred, for those member states participating in the regulation. In accordance with the opt-in procedure under Protocol 21, if the UK does not opt in to the proposal, and if it is subsequently adopted by the rest of the EU, the UK will remain bound by the underlying CEPOL Council decision, as the repeal aspect of the regulation would not apply to the UK.
The UK would be working with CEPOL according to the old Council decision while all other member states work according to the new regulation. Practically speaking, which was the point made by the noble Lord, Lord Hannay, this may not be impossible, especially if the new regulation does not significantly alter the focus of CEPOL. However, if the Commission considers—
Lord Hannay of Chiswick
I am sorry to interrupt the Minister, but I wanted to get in before he sat down. I did not suggest that it might not be impossible: I suggested that it might not be possible, which is the exact opposite.
Will the Minister also answer a question that disturbs me? This is not the first time that Home Office Ministers have taken refuge in not declaring their hand at the time of the debate in this House: it is about the third time, in fact. This demonstrates very clearly the ingenuity that Ministers and civil servants are able to put into turning into a meaningless matter the undertakings given by the noble Baroness, Lady Ashton, and by Mr Lidington from another place. The Government manage miraculously to remain poised on the horns of their dilemma until a couple of days after this House has expressed an opinion and then equally miraculously the light shines down from heaven and the Government take a decision, and they are not subject to any scrutiny in this House whatever.
Before he finishes, will the Minister undertake that when the light has shone down from above and the Government have reached a decision, he will come and tell the House what the Government have decided so that we can consider that? This is not a good way of dealing with these matters and the previous examples show just how badly the Lidington/Ashton undertakings are being implemented.
Lord Bates
I hear what the noble Lord says, but the advantage of having a debate at the present time is that the committee’s report and your Lordships’ contributions inform the Government’s position. That is beneficial, rather than coming to the House after a decision has been taken by Her Majesty's Government.
I also accept the noble Lord’s point about what is possible and what is impossible. I readily acknowledge that. It is not for us to decide whether it is possible or impossible: it is for the Commission and the other member states to determine whether they are willing to tolerate that or whether they wish to eject us from the process. That is further down the route.
Lord Sharkey
I am sorry, but I am not quite clear about whether the Government will bring back the issue to this House once they have made a decision on whether to opt in or not.
Lord Bates
The decisions that are made on these matters are ordinarily communicated by Written Ministerial Statement. If, through the usual channels, the business managers and the committee, there is scope for something more than that, of course we stand willing to comply with what the House requires and to show it due respect. But that is the normal course through which information is communicated on decisions of this nature.
However, if the Commission considers that UK non-participation makes CEPOL inoperable, it could seek to have us ejected from CEPOL, from the 2005 decision. The provisions in Article 4a(2) of the protocol clearly set this out. Clearly, this depends on a number of questions that are currently hypothetical: whether we opt in before 24 November; whether, if we do not opt in then, we do so post-adoption; and whether, if we do not, the Commission tries to trigger the ejection mechanism. But if things got that far, it would be important to note that the protocol sets what seems to be a very high threshold for ejection. It requires the measure to be “inoperable”, not merely inconvenient or difficult to operate, and it must be inoperable for the other member states, not just for the UK. These are tough tests for the Commission to meet. However, that is an argument to be had if and when we get to that stage. We are a long way from there at the moment.
With reference to the draft Europol regulation, as the committee is aware, we decided not to opt in at the outset, but committed to opting in post-adoption if certain conditions are met. I must stress that, at this stage, no decision to opt in has been made and no such decision will be made until negotiations are complete and the regulation is adopted. At that point, the full process for considering a post-adoption opt-in will be followed, which, as the committee is aware, can take several months. However, as mentioned above, and without pre-judging the final outcome, I can say that I am pleased with the current progress of the negotiations.
I realise that time is running out. I will deal with some of the matters raised and if I cannot deal with them all, I will of course respond in writing to the noble Baroness in the first instance and copy that letter to all other noble Lords who have contributed to the debate. Some specific points were raised by the noble Lord, Lord Sharkey, and my noble friend Lord Patten. My noble friend brings immense expertise to this having, in another place and in another guise, been a particularly fine Policing Minister in the Home Office. The particular issue of concern is the proposal for CEPOL to assess the impact of existing law enforcement training policies and initiatives and to promote the mutual recognition of law enforcement training in member states and related existing European quality standards.
We have a particular problem with this because, from the time between Bramshill closing and the CEPOL negotiations, we now have an excellent College of Policing, which is doing tremendous work among police forces in this country. To keep it in context—noble Lords asked about this—the attendance at CEPOL courses was typically around 100 officers per year at Bramshill. That has now gone. We are talking about the College of Policing, but also recognise that in Bramshill we have an asset, and there were associated running costs. That is going to front-line law enforcement in this country.
Other issues that were raised related to the timeliness of communications. The noble Baroness, Lady Prashar, and the noble Lord, Lord Judd, raised this in very serious terms. I will take it away and reflect on it. It is not always within our hands as to when we get documents and how to pass them on. However, I should like to sit down with the committee to understand how we can improve our performance, between officials at the Home Office, Ministers, and the committees, to ensure that committees are able to do their job of scrutiny in a proper way. I accept the reprimand, apologise and promise to look at that more closely.
Some Members, including the noble Lord, Lord Judd, referred to the Lisbon justice and home affairs opt-out. As I have said, that is an opt-out of the previous Government’s making. We are simply exercising our right to do it. It does not seem necessarily a bad thing that if you have a piece of regulation before you and you are not entirely happy with it, then you can undertake the genuine, sincere and vigorous negotiations happening at the present, and reserve judgment on whether you choose to opt into the final draft until you have seen the final text.
The noble Lord, Lord Patten, also referred to the fact that we need to work much better at cross-border co-operation in policing and serious crime. We recognise that that is a very important area. That is why we have taken the approach that we have towards Europol and the arrest warrant. We recognise, as the noble Baroness, Lady Smith, said in her remarks, that ensuring the safety and security of the people in this country is the first priority of every Government. We should do that, but we can do so not necessarily by signing up to everything, but by being discerning because we have been given the opportunity to do that.
I covered interdependence. We accept that we need to co-operate and that is an ongoing thing. I very much accept that we are in this together and that, as the noble Lord, Lord Judd, said, we need to co-operate. However, we can have meaningful input into the negotiations ongoing in Brussels with our position as it is. I do not think it is an ideological position. It is one that looks at different issues and treats them in different ways, raising legitimate concerns about CEPOL while recognising its very good work, taking a slightly different approach with Europol, and a different approach to the European arrest warrant. That is a balanced and broad approach. However, I assure your Lordships that we will take into account and re-read all the contributions made in the debate. Again, I thank the committee for the work it has prepared, which we can draw upon.
Baroness Prashar
My Lords, I thank all Members of the House for their contribution to the debate and for their positive comments about the report and the work of the EU Select Committee, for which I am very grateful. I have listened very carefully to the Minister and welcome the fact that he is willing to discuss the timetable to ensure that there is better engagement with the committees on timing. I also listened carefully to what the Minister said about the pros and cons of opting in now or later and the process. I must say that I find that unsatisfactory. I am disappointed that we have not had a clear answer on the Government’s intention. I urge the Minister to think about that, because the committee weighed the pros and cons and recommended that it would be wiser to opt into the regulation now rather than later.
Having said that, what is clear from the tone of the debate is that there is disappointment about the process, but we also have to take account of the context within which opt-ins are being discussed. The noble Lord, Lord Judd, talked about the culture and the importance of working together. It is important also to register the broader point within which the debate about opt-ins is taking place.
I thank the Minister for his response and I beg to move.