The Minister of State, Department for Work and Pensions (Mike Penning)
I congratulate the hon. Member for Edinburgh East (Sheila Gilmore) on getting here this evening. I know that she was delayed on the train. I think it very important for a debate that is on the Order Paper following a Member’s success in the ballot to be heard: that is only right and proper. Actually, this is a bit like groundhog day. According to my file, this is the hon. Lady’s fifth debate on the subject. She said that it was the sixth; perhaps we missed one.
I thank the Chair of the Work and Pensions Committee, the hon. Member for Aberdeen South (Dame Anne Begg), for being present this evening. I am slightly concerned, because I said many of the things that I am about to say to her Committee only a few days ago. I hope that its members will pay attention to what I say, because during the speech of the hon. Member for Edinburgh East I feared that the report might have already been written. I said openly and honestly that I wanted to do exactly what the Chair of the Committee said should be done—to make the process fairer, better and quicker, which I think is what we all want.
Mike Penning
I should like to make some progress first, not least because I want to congratulate the hon. Lady a little more. We have plenty of time, after all—with your permission, Mr Deputy Speaker.
Sheila Gilmore
May I just say, for the purpose of clarification, that any comments that I made about the Select Committee related to evidence that had been given in public? I was not in any sense referring to what the Committee would or would not recommend in due course, because we have not yet reached that stage.
Mike Penning
I was questioned extensively by the Committee about mandatory reconsideration delays, which are the subject of this evening’s debate. As you will probably have noticed, Mr Deputy Speaker, I rarely speak from notes, but I shall try to stick to what I said during the Committee’s evidence sessions.
There are two or three points I can make, but in some respects we will have to wait for the statistical analysis. I would love the data to be published now, but it is not ready. As soon as it is ready, I will publish it. As I said to the Select Committee recently, the statistics are being analysed and they will be published as soon as they become available.
Mandatory reconsideration is being done in order to get decisions right—to give decision makers the opportunity to look at things and make sure we have got the decision right. If there is any new evidence, it can be brought forward at that stage. That, among other things, is clearly having an effect on the number of appeals going to the tribunals—although we do not know to what extent, as the statistical analysis has not yet been released—and I think that is a good thing. As I said to the Select Committee, if this means that fewer judges are employed handling tribunals, that is a good thing. I am not certain the judges feel that way, and some of the comments from some judges more recently may indicate that. However, it is important that tribunals are gone to as a last resort in order to make the judgment as to whether DWP officials and decision makers have made that final decision correctly to the best of their ability.
If we can have fewer people going to appeal, that will be better. Appeals are dropping across the benefits handled by the Department, and especially those in respect of WCA. That is not solely due to mandatory reconsideration. There are about 80% fewer appeals, like for like.
Have delays been caused as we brought in the process? I have been open and honest about that before, and the answer is yes, but I would rather have slightly more delays than have decisions incorrectly taken and then turned over at tribunal. The decision on the mandatory reconsideration was prompted in part because I had sat in on a tribunal hearing and so much evidence was being brought in on the day of the tribunal. Everybody has the right to do that, and judges certainly have the rights and powers to look at that evidence, but my decision makers and officials had had no opportunity to look at that evidence. It is very important that we get this right.
At this stage in the process, the decision has been made that the person concerned is not going to get ESA. That is why we refer them across to JSA while the process is continuing.
The hon. Lady quoted from the DWP guidance specifically on the 14-day question. She pointed this out:
“The 14 day Temporary Periods of Sickness rule in JSA is in place to protect people from losing their entitlement when they have a short period of sickness. It was never intended to protect people with long term conditions.”
The following bullet point is very important, however:
“Claimants with longer term conditions can have their availability”—
for work in this case—
“restricted because of a physical or mental condition as long as the advisor thinks it is reasonable to do so”
based on the information before them.
Sheila Gilmore
The guidance the Minister quotes is one thing, but there is clear evidence—not just from Citizens Advice Scotland and my advice surgeries and those of my colleagues, but from up and down the country—that people in this position are not being allowed to claim JSA. They are being told that, because of their unfitness for work and in order to keep to the conditions, they cannot receive that benefit and they are turned away. Can the Minister assure us that he will make sure that will not happen?
Mike Penning
I will do everything I can, but I think it would have been right and proper for the hon. Lady to have gone on to say that there is specific guidance for people with long-term illness, as it is important to put that on the record. On the point she makes, I want all the staff in the DWP who have face-to-face contact with claimants and members of the public to have as much information as possible to make sure they can make the right decision. That is exactly why the guidance was changed in April. It was a decision that I made, and I asked my officials to make the change. I am not in any way saying that mistakes do not take place. We have a very large benefit with huge amounts of face-to-face contact across the board, whether it is in Jobcentre Plus or with officials in my own Department, and we make mistakes; no one could say otherwise. It would not make any difference who the Government were or who was standing here as Minister. I hope that they would all say, “We never get it perfect all of the time.” However, we should get as much of it right as we can and as often as we can, which is why mandatory reconsideration is vital to ensuring that the system works. As the hon. Lady and the Chair of the Select Committee said, when we are re-looking at a case and find that a person is entitled to benefit, we should ensure that their housing benefit and council tax benefit are not affected. All that must join up together.
Without a shadow of a doubt, we will work very hard to put in place the right training and guidance to ensure that the decision makers get things right. It is a big job, and I have only been here a short time, but we are getting there. As a Minister in the DWP, I am absolutely determined that we will ensure that taxpayers’ money is spent wisely; that it goes to the people who need it; that we put in place training for the right people; that any delays that are taking place—and they are taking place—are brought to a minimum; that we get out statistics; and that we are open and honest with the public, which I will be if there is a debate again next week or the week after, and that will remain the case for as long as I am a Minister in the DWP.
Question put and agreed to.