(11 years, 2 months ago)
Grand CommitteeRead Hansard Text Read Debate Ministerial Extracts
Lord Bradshaw
To ask Her Majesty’s Government what plans they have to increase the use and quality of bus services.
Lord Bradshaw (LD)
My Lords, I thank all noble Lords for their magnificent punctuality, which should be the precursor of this debate. It is my great pleasure to welcome my noble friend Lady Kramer as the Minister. I am sure that her advent here will be warmly welcomed throughout the House. It is also a good thing to note that the Department for Transport has today issued a statement about the Better Bus Area Fund, with new additions to it in Merseyside, York, Nottingham and the west of England. This money has been competed for and is to go towards improving bus services according to those proposals put forward by authorities which were deemed to be the best.
I shall start by talking about the reimbursement of concessionary fares. This is still a bone of contention. I remember when the noble Lord, Lord Adonis, was the Secretary of State, he invited a party of bus operators to see him. We had a full and frank discussion, but unfortunately it did not actually result in anything. The consequence is that there is a lot of ill feeling among bus operators that they are not getting a fair return for the services rendered. They should be neither any better off nor any worse off, but some of them are in fact considerably worse off. Unfortunately, that disadvantage is felt most severely by small and medium-sized operators, not the big five. They have the opportunity to cross-subsidise and utilise the swings and roundabouts. However, I have received a letter from a bus operator in Norfolk who is quite adamant that his operation is not getting adequate reimbursement. The letter states, “Certainly in my area, now with the highest proportion of over-60s among its population of anywhere in England, there are longer routes where the scheme comprehensively underpays any reimbursement, and this is causing services to be reduced or cut entirely”. I think that we are all conscious of the fact that it is not fair or reasonable to offer elderly people bus passes on the one hand and to remove their bus services on the other.
I want to ask the Minister whether she will take another look at what is going on and possibly meet with some more bus operators with, I hope, a better result than was the case after my last meeting. This is an important issue. I know that all the political parties are gearing themselves up to offer, at the next general election, to do something about young people’s fares. There is much justice in that, particularly following the raising of the school leaving age and so on. However, bus operators will not co-operate unless they feel that they are being treated fairly in respect of concessionary fares. Again, it is important that something is done about this because we should be reaching out to people when they reach the age when they can buy motor cars. It is rather important that they do not buy them because of the congestion that affects many of our towns and cities. This is the first issue I want to bring home, and I hope that the Minister will agree that we should have some discussions with operators.
The second issue that I wish to debate is profitability. The word “profit” has been bandied about recently as a thoroughly dirty word, yet any enterprise that is progressive needs profit to invest money. The bus companies have not been slow to invest money. They have much more modern, environmentally friendly and cleaner vehicles than they had a few years ago, which—thinking of the next debate—cannot be said of all train operators. However, some people are now describing “profit” as a dirty word.
I have been involved in the management of bus companies. I know that bus companies in both the public and private sectors have to earn a profit, otherwise they will not have money to invest. Where profits are at a reasonable level and companies are investing money, we should not pretend that allowing the public sector to take over the routes, which was more or less set out by Maria Eagle at the Labour Party conference, is a way forward at all. Reducing the bus operators to penury is not a very good policy. I can remember—because I am very old—what Greater Manchester buses were like when they were in public ownership. The buses ran late; they were filthy-dirty; the staff were thoroughly disobliging; and the service cost the ratepayers a lot of money.
We know that the authority in Tyne & Wear, for example, is trying to go forward with a quality contract scheme. The arithmetic of it seems to be very faulty. I know that there is a procedure that has to be gone through to convince the senior traffic commissioner that a scheme is good and will benefit taxpayers and bus users. The Government should be very careful that they get good, sound reasons for any change that takes place. I fancy that it will be a long struggle. The bus companies believe that their rights are being sequestrated without compensation, and the likelihood is that the case will go right to the Court of Human Rights in Strasbourg if the scheme is not properly formulated.
Competition is necessary, but all attempts to regulate it through competition authorities have proved very expensive and ineffective. If the Minister looks back through the records of the Office of Fair Trading and the Competition Commission, she will see that they investigated the bus industry probably more than all the other industries in the country put together. It cost a huge amount of money and took up a huge amount of management time, and I do not think that any result was worth a row of beans.
Could not the traffic commissioners have a more active role in regulating any predatory behaviour that arises? The commissioners have to accept a registration. Before they accept that registration, they will know that Bill Bloggs proposes to run a bus three minutes in front of Bill Smith’s, after which there will be a long gap. That sort of thing does not need a genius to spot, and is extremely destructive of the network and public confidence.
Local government has a very active role in keeping streets clear of obstructions, be they parked cars or road works which seem to infest all our roads. I believe that when a traffic commissioner calls in a bus operator for not operating within the margins—margins which are going to be tightened up to mean no minutes early and nearly 100% on time, which is a very high target—the traffic commissioner should also summon the local authority at the same time to make sure that it is playing its part in the bargain because, unlike with the railway, the streets are separate from the operator. At least with the railway they fall within one armful with the Office of Rail Regulation.
There are a few things that might interest the Minister and I would be very happy to talk in more detail. This is the time of year when I raise the question of the bus industry which needs consideration.
Baroness Scott of Needham Market (LD)
My Lords, I start by thanking my noble friend Lord Bradshaw for tabling and introducing today’s debate, which has become a sort of annual fixture. It is a real pity that the importance of buses to the public is not reflected in the interest that the House takes in public transport generally and buses in particular. It is not just a courtesy at this point to say how much I welcome the presence of my noble friend Lady Kramer at the Dispatch Box. I have known the noble Baroness for many years and I know that her hands-on experience of transport, particularly the financing of it, is going to be of real benefit to the House, to the department and to the Government, so she is very welcome.
I wish to focus my few remarks today on the question of rural bus services, which is a topic close to my heart. Like many Members of this House, I split my time between my home in the country in a village of fewer than 200 people, and my flat in London, which is close to a main road along which around a dozen services run about every five minutes during the day and then continue to run through the night, so the contrast is very stark. About seven years ago when the gentleman who is now my husband first came to see me in Suffolk, he asked the Londoners’ question: “When is the next bus?”. “Thursday”, I told him. “We don’t need real-time passenger information; we just need a calendar”. Now my village does not have a bus service at all and I do not have a problem with that. When I was first elected to the county council in 1993, I recall looking at bus routes where the per-passenger subsidy was greater than a taxi fare, and that is clearly untenable. However, people who live in small villages still need to access services and not everyone can run a car. In my village the answer has come in the form of demand-responsive transport. It is called Suffolk Links and it is run by a not-for-dividend-profit organisation called Optua. Using a mixture of paid and volunteer staff it provides a very good service to villages like mine and, while it is not as convenient as a car, it is very much better than a weekly bus and much cheaper than a taxi.
These demand-responsive services are suffering from a combination of local authority cuts, regulatory burdens and an unhelpful financial regime, so I would appreciate it if the noble Baroness could perhaps write to me setting out what the Government’s current thinking is on the demand-responsive transport sector. It is becoming quite urgent as there is now very real pressure on these services because of the withdrawal of bus services from larger communities which in my day on the council would not have been considered marginal. Central government cuts to local authorities and to the bus operators’ support grant, along with changes to the concessionary fares scheme, have meant that many services are no longer seen as viable. Close to us in Suffolk is the village of Stowupland. It has a population of around 1,800 so it is a decent size. Due to its previously good bus links—it had an hourly service—it has a large population of retired people. There are also quite a number of people in the village living in socially rented housing. Having lost their weekend and evening services some time ago, First has recently announced the withdrawal of all bus services from the village. This is a terrible blow to the many people who rely totally on buses will have a major impact on the fabric of the village.
Lest noble Lords think that I am focusing too much on Suffolk, North Yorkshire County Council is consulting on a proposal to cut a further 25% of bus support, and Dorset 28%. In Norfolk, the popular Coasthopper service is to be cut by a third; that is perhaps what my noble friend Lord Bradshaw was referring to. These are all rural counties and many small communities will be badly hit by this level of cuts. We need to remember that 10% of the rural population does not have access to a car. Those people will suffer increased isolation and have real problems trying to access essential services. It is all very well for the Chancellor to stand up at his conference and say that jobseekers are going to have to go to the jobcentre daily, but how on earth are rural claimants to get there? There is a desperate lack of joined-up thinking in all of this.
As another example, most Suffolk villages, even the smallest, have a group of a dozen or so council houses which were built after the war. They were built at a time when land was cheap and families were larger, so on the whole they are quite big. It is therefore not always easy to find tenants for them. Having no access to bus services is not going to make it any easier to find tenants for these houses, especially when you couple that with the changes to housing benefit, which are making larger properties much harder to let.
I would like the noble Baroness to outline for us how the Government’s role in bus policy is currently being defined. Is there still a role for government or is it simply being left to a combination of market forces and cash-strapped local authorities to deal with? I wonder whether the Department for Transport is aware that there is a real perception that the Government are no longer supportive of the bus industry and its needs. We have heard the questions about the changes to the concessionary fares scheme and the bus service operators grant, which have not helped the bus industry one bit. The mood music really is important. For example, Eric Pickles’ proposal that people should be allowed to park on the road for 15 minutes is just plain daft. A succession of cars parking for 15 minutes is as bad as one being parked there for the whole day. If it blocks the road and makes the smooth running of buses and cars and safe pedestrian crossing more difficult, it is a very silly idea. Billing it as a pro-high street measure reveals a failure to understand the dynamics of people and traffic on high streets.
There is another area about which I am concerned, and I would be interested to know whether the department has had consultations and discussions with the Department for Education and the Department for Transport on home-to-school transport. In rural areas this has always been provided by a combination of large and small operators using the same buses on the school runs and the service runs. As the services are disappearing, the school runs by themselves will almost certainly not be viable for the operators. This is particularly key where there are smaller operators in the rural areas, because they are the ones who are finding the going tough and withdrawing from the industry altogether. Councils have a statutory obligation to provide home-to-school transport, so they could, ironically, end up having to run a bus fleet in order to get children to school, which would be very much more expensive than subsidising transport. I would like to know a little more about that.
Finally, it would of course be churlish not to welcome the Government’s Better Bus Areas programme, particularly the announcement today. My heart sings for Merseyside and so on. However, my plea to the Government, particularly to the noble Baroness, is not to forget rural areas. People rely on buses and they will be badly impacted by these changes.
Lord Berkeley (Lab)
My Lords, I am grateful for the opportunity to say a few words in the gap. It is extraordinary hearing the noble Lord, Lord Bradshaw, and the noble Baroness, Lady Scott, talk about rural bus services. Where I live in Cornwall, exactly the same thing is happening: buses are being cut. I do not have a car; I have a bicycle, but not everybody who does not have a car can go by bike. The problems are the same in my area.
This also comes back to the debate we had on the Question in the Chamber yesterday about new roads, the problems of resurfacing existing roads, filling in potholes and so on. The Minister who answered for the Government, the noble Lord, Lord Popat, said that local authorities have got a big budget for this. However, the problem is that local authorities’ budgets are being cut all the way round and that applies to the budgets for buses and road surfacing. I do not buy into this continuing mantra, which comes not just from this Government but has been going on for years, that everything central government does is perfect whereas everything done by local authorities is rubbish and should be cut down or given to somebody else because they can do it better. We have a long way to go in this regard and the problem with rural buses is extremely serious.
I also want to refer briefly to bus lanes, particularly in the context of city centres. I do not think that we have discussed them recently, but there has been a lot of debate over the summer, particularly in London, about cyclists being killed by trucks and trucks being required by the mayor to put extra safety equipment in place. I refer particularly to tipper trucks as opposed to articulated lorries. The safety equipment is a good idea and may possibly help to prevent a few accidents. However, the real problem is enforcement. These trucks are allowed into London and I believe that they can be fined £200 a day if they do not have the right equipment fitted. How will the mayor ensure that the enforcement is sufficiently rigorous to make the owners of these trucks comply with the regulations? How will he ensure that bus lanes are kept free for buses, and for cyclists if they are allowed in them?
Pedalling or driving round London, whether in a bus or a car, you see endless examples of cars, vans and trucks being parked in bus lanes when they should not be there. They may be 24/7 bus lanes or they may apply just in the morning and evening rush hours, but illegal parking in them dramatically constrains the reliability of buses. The bus drivers are very good and do their best, but the whole point of bus lanes is to provide greater reliability for passengers, drivers and operators. However, that does not exist. Before we bring in too many more regulations in this area we should have a strong go—government, local authorities, police; whoever’s job it is—at making sure that the existing regulations are properly enforced and are seen to be enforced by the public. I would love to see a car illegally parked in a bus lane have a ruddy great big ticket put on it and be subject to a big fine. The driver would not do that again, but at the moment, most people think, “Well, what’s the point?”. I shall be very interested to hear what our new Minister has to say. I warmly congratulate her on her appointment and I look forward to working and debating with her in the future.
Lord Rosser (Lab)
I start by thanking the noble Lord, Lord Bradshaw, for securing this debate. His comments seemed to have as much to do with Labour Party policy as government policy. I agreed rather more with the thrust of the comments of the noble Baroness, Lady Scott of Needham Market, and, of course, with those of my noble friend Lord Berkeley. I also take this opportunity to congratulate the noble Baroness, Lady Kramer, on her appointment as Transport Minister, a subject on which she has considerable knowledge and experience, not least through the prominent positions she has held over a number of years as a Liberal Democrat in London. If, by any chance, the Minister feels that she has had to wait a long time since becoming a Member of this House to speak in a debate from the government Dispatch Box, then, like the proverbial comment about the arrival of buses, she now finds that, after the wait, two debates have arrived together one behind the other. In warmly welcoming the Minister to transport debates, I take this opportunity to express my thanks to the noble Earl, Lord Attlee, who, as a Whip, has spoken for the Government up to now on transport matters, and who in my experience has always been a very courteous and approachable person with a genuine sense of humour.
Some questions have already been raised in this brief debate about the Government’s policy and their approach to the bus industry, and we wait to see whether the Minister’s arrival is likely to mean any change in approach. I should like her to confirm that there will be no change in one area: that neither party in the coalition Government has any plans to withdraw the current concessionary bus passes for senior citizens. It would be helpful if she could confirm that that is the position.
We know that, outside London, local bus passenger numbers fell again last year, this time by 2.5%, with bus mileage outside London also falling again, this time by just under 1%. Mileage on services financially supported by local authorities, accounting now for 20% of the total, has fallen even further: by an estimated 8% over the latest year and 17% in the past two years. There is no need to guess which government policy has led to that state of affairs. If you make cuts of a quarter in local transport funding and a fifth in direct subsidies to support essential routes, it is bound to have an adverse impact, as has already been said in this debate.
The Campaign for Better Transport has said that a great many local authorities have looked or are looking to buses as an area in which to make cuts, with some councils planning to lose all their supported services. A fifth of such services have already gone. The position in London is different. Around half of all bus journeys in England are made in London, where the 2012-13 total was broadly unchanged from the previous year at approximately 2.3 billion, following years of growth. Likewise, vehicle mileage is up in London. In London, bus services are operated by private companies but regulated by Transport for London. In England outside London, services are operated on a purely commercial basis or with financial support from transport authorities.
The Department for Transport produces regular statistics on the bus industry. The most recent statistics, I think dated last month, appear to tell us that total costs in 2012-13 were at broadly the same level in real terms as in the previous year, and that operating costs for local bus services in England outside London have fallen by 2% since 2008-09. However, the next paragraph in the document, unless I have misread it, tells us that, despite this, the latest figures show that bus fares continued to increase at a rate greater than inflation in the year to March 2013. The heading for this very brief paragraph on bus fares is, “continued above-inflation increases”, which may of course be the explanation for why the paragraph on fares has been kept so brief by the Department for Transport.
What the official statistics also tell us is that women are more likely to use buses than men, that males and females aged between 17 and 20 made more bus journeys than any other age group among the categories within the DfT’s statistics in 2012, and that those in the lowest household income group make the most bus journeys, accounting for more than half of all bus journeys in Great Britain. It is therefore not clear on which groups who are not qualified for free concessionary travel the impact of—I use the Department for Transport’s own wording—“continued above-inflation increases” falls most heavily at a time when we continue to have the cost of living increasing at a faster rate than wages.
The Government also claim that they are trying to get young people into work or full-time higher education, while ignoring the fact that the Government have trebled university tuition fees, scrapped the education maintenance allowance and hammered the Future Jobs Fund. The Department for Transport statistics also tell us that the “continued above-inflation increases” in bus fares have a disproportionately greater impact on the very group—namely, the 17 to 20 year-olds who the Government say they want to get into education, employment or training, and who may well need to travel by bus to do so—than on any other age group. If bus fares are too costly, the opportunities for young people to take up opportunities in education, work or training are going to be reduced and restricted. That in itself imposes further costs on the nation and on taxpayers. The Government can hardly claim that bus deregulation outside London has been successful, except perhaps for the five major bus companies who control more than 70% of the UK bus market and do not appear to be feeling the pinch to the same extent as many of their passengers. I note, however, the comments by the noble Lord, Lord Bradshaw, about the position of smaller operators and concessionary fares, and await with interest what the Minister has to say in response.
The noble Lord, Lord Bradshaw, has given his views on Tyne and Wear. Tyne and Wear is pursuing quality bus contracts to get a better deal for passengers. Contrary to the tenor of the comments of the noble Lord, I believe that they should be encouraged, as should other local transport authorities who want to go down the same road: planning the local bus network, raising the level of services and tackling the issue of fares, including fares for young people.
Other local transport authorities may prefer partnerships with local bus companies, and there are examples of where this has been very successful. However, it should be for the local transport authorities, who are accountable, to decide which road to take. The Government should not appear to side with bus companies, who do not seem to like quality contracts, through funding arrangements which militate against local transport authorities that want to go down that path.
Government policy on buses has been a failure. One hopes that the reason the Minister has been brought in to replace her Liberal Democrat colleague in the department is to oversee a change in policy which leads to increasing passenger usage of buses outside London and to a better deal for bus passengers, who, while in the main not well off, are among those bearing the brunt of the cost-of-living increases.
The Minister of State, Department for Transport (Baroness Kramer) (LD)
My Lords, I thank your Lordships for the debate so far. It is an extraordinary privilege for me to be here today. I could not open in any other way than to thank the noble Earl, Lord Attlee, who so stalwartly responded to questions, many of them from people present at today’s debate. He may not have a large shoe size, but his are nevertheless large shoes to fill; I feel that as I stand here.
I also had a joke to open with. However, the noble Lord, Lord Rosser, has taken advantage of me and talked about my facing two debates today already. Instead, I will make just one statement, because I want it to be absolutely clear: this Government have no plans to withdraw concessionary fares for older and disabled people. They are enshrined in law and that remains the position. I want to make that clear before we discuss any other issues.
We can all agree that buses play a vital role in our economy: 4.6 million bus journeys were made on local buses in England in 2011-12. They are essential for people to get to work and to education. They are a lifeline for many people, enabling them to socialise. Over half of those outside London who rely on the bus do not have access to a car. Studies such as those from the University of Leeds have reinforced the importance of buses to a healthy and growing economy, and that is surely something we all support.
While there has been some suggestion, particularly from Lord Rosser, that the situation is bleak, I suggest that there is evidence to the contrary. Customer satisfaction with bus journeys is high: 84% of passengers are satisfied with their service. We all want to see that figure improved, but let us not deny that that is a mark of success, particularly compared to the past. Under-21s make up a third of bus passengers; as a group they are often fascinated by the car, yet they are accepting the bus as a way to travel. Use among the over-60s is also increasing, especially as a result of the national concessionary pass.
Moreover, the Government remain committed to improving bus services, and expenditure on buses reflects that. This year the Government spent £1 billion on the concessionary travel entitlement and £340 million on direct subsidies to bus operators in England. We have allocated over £300 million to major bus projects in the last year, and we have provided £70 million, through the Better Bus Area fund, for improvements in 24 local authority areas.
Let me pick up the issue of demand-responsive transport, raised by my noble friend Lady Scott of Needham Market. We have allocated £20 million to support community transport. This is an area of real interest and challenge because it is going to take an intelligent and innovative approach to work out how to provide transport to areas where demand is irregular and sporadic. It means that local authorities will have to bring together the community, so that many others in the community—the voluntary services and stakeholders—can try to look for answers to this. It is one of the reasons why the Government have said that the answers have to be found in the local community, which understands the local problems, rather than imposed constantly from Whitehall. She also raised the home-to-school transport issue. I need to understand that better, and I promise to try to do so.
The Government have provided £600 million for the Local Sustainable Transport Fund and £95 million for four rounds of the Green Bus fund, but we can still do better. The Government’s Green Light for Better Buses sets out our plans for buses. The proposals include reforming bus subsidy, improving competition, improving local authority capability in tendering—and let us not underestimate the difference that can make—incentivising partnership working and multi-operator ticketing, which is a particular interest of mine, and making access to bus information and ticketing easier for all. Perhaps some of that is a result of my London experience.
There is no doubt that we are operating in challenging economic times. The Government must ensure that the bus market is still attractive to all operators, large and small—precisely the point raised by my noble friend Lord Bradshaw. They must find ways to allocate funds fairly, while keeping in mind the best value for money for taxpayers. There is a balance and it is not necessarily an easy set of answers.
The bus service operators grant, paid to bus operators, has historically been provided in a blunt, untargeted way, related to fuel consumption. But from January 2014, the bus subsidy previously claimed by operators of non-commercial services will be devolved to local authorities. I hope that that will drive forward that kind of innovation and new thinking. That money will be ring-fenced until 2017 to ensure stability and will allow local authorities to make the best local-level decisions about the provision of non-commercial bus services.
As several noble Lords around this table have said, some local authorities have argued that they can make the bus subsidy deliver better value for money by working in partnership with their bus operators to grow the bus market. We can all agree that Reading and Nottingham are fine examples of the sort of excellent bus service that can be achieved through that kind of partnership. The noble Lord, Lord Rosser, acknowledged that. It is precisely what the four new Better Bus Areas, which I announced today in a Written Ministerial Statement, are intended to test; I thank my noble friend Lord Bradshaw for his kind comments on that. The policy relies strongly on partnership with commercial bus operators, rather than contractual relationships. That is a significant element of a more positive approach.
As the noble Lord, Lord Rosser, has said, Better Bus Areas are quite distinct from quality contract schemes, where, in effect, the local authority follows something much closer to a London model. I feel very strongly that local authorities and local communities should be making the decision about which way they should go on this. If I understood the noble Lord, Lord Rosser, he took that position as well. Some will go one way and some will go another, but I believe that it is absolutely vital that Whitehall does not try to pretend that it understands the needs of each local community. Providing that flexibility to go in two directions seems to be something that we should see as a strength, not as a weakness.
I also want to stress that the Government are committed to protecting the national bus travel concession. I talked about that and made a very clear statement. I love my freedom pass; I suppose I should declare that I have one in case that could be considered a conflict of interest. I know that it changes people’s lives.
A number of people, including the noble Lord, Lord Rosser, recognise that there is a serious issue of young people’s travel, and it is a complex area. While there is no statutory obligation to provide discounted travel to young people, many commercial and publicly funded reductions are available. I make it clear that this is an area that I want to explore. I think that we could do a lot more work in this area and see what possibilities there are, because I take on board many of the issues that have been raised here. I congratulate those local authorities—I think that Brighton is one example—which have provided discounted fares to young people. We therefore have a beginning point for seeing what the impact is and for putting a great deal more thought into this.
Let me try in the minutes that I have left to make sure that I have covered some of the issues that were raised—where I have not, I will of course write to noble Lords. My brain is not yet trained to grasp every point in the way that it should be and, I hope, eventually will be.
On the reimbursement of concessionary fares, the underlying principle, as the noble Lord, Lord Bradshaw, said is: no better off and no worse off. It is an EU regulation and there is plenty of guidance around all this. I am very happy to meet those who think that it is not working effectively, but I should point out that, at the end of a process, bus operators can appeal to the Secretary of State on this issue—indeed, during the past two years, the number of those appeals has fallen, so this may be less of a problem than we might initially fear. I agree, however, that getting that sorted is very helpful if we are going to start thinking through the issue of concessions for young people.
On traffic commissioners and their role in competition, I am sure that I was handed a note and, if I was, I cannot find it. However, I shall pick that up; I am not yet familiar with the issue of traffic commissioners and what they do. Obviously, because they are regional, they can have an impact in a way that I should be aware of, so I will come back and answer that question.
The noble Lord, Lord Berkeley, talked about bus lane enforcement. In London, on TfL roads, that is obviously a matter for the mayor; otherwise, it is a matter for local authorities. From personal experience, I think that most people seem to regard enforcement as ruthless rather than soft. There are certainly successful examples, such as in York, which has employed enforcement officers. This is another area where we must look to local communities to work out how it can be done within their own community. I would be hesitant about Whitehall trying to suggest that there is one way to carry out enforcement, but I take the point that the noble Lord makes.
I again apologise if I have missed any points that noble Lords may have made. I will cover them in letters—we will go back through Hansard and make sure. I assure the Committee that the Government believe in buses. Our vision is for a better bus service with more of what passengers want. We want punctual, interconnected services; we want them greener; it is essential that they become fully wheelchair-accessible; and we need widely available smart ticketing. I know from the experience of London what an impact some of those “soft issues” can have on the effectiveness, the attractiveness and the success of a bus service. A more attractive, more competitive and greener bus network will encourage more passengers, cut carbon and create growth. I believe that those are grounds on which we can all agree.
The Deputy Chairman of Committees (Lord Faulkner of Worcester) (Lab)
I am afraid that I shall have to ask noble Lords to contain their impatience until 4 pm. The rules of the Grand Committee do not allow the next debate to start before the appointed time, even though I look around and see that every speaker is here. I am afraid that I have no discretion on that.