Crime and Courts Bill [Lords] (Programme) ((No. 3)
(Limited Text - Ministerial Extracts only)
Read Full debate20:04 - The House divided: - Ayes: 40 / Noes: 508 - Question accordingly negatived.
The Leader of the House of Commons (Mr Andrew Lansley)
I beg to move,
That the Order of 13 March 2013 (Crime and Courts Bill [Lords] (Programme) (No. 2)) be varied as follows:
1. Paragraphs 2 to 5 of the Order shall be omitted.
2. Remaining proceedings on Consideration and Third Reading shall be taken at today’s sitting.
3. Remaining proceedings on Consideration shall be taken in the order shown in the following Table.
4. Each part of the remaining proceedings on Consideration shall (so far as not previously concluded) be brought to a conclusion at the time specified in relation to it in the second column of the Table.
TABLE
Proceedings | Time for conclusion of proceedings |
|---|---|
New Clauses and new Schedules standing in the name of the Prime Minister and relating to press conduct; remaining new Clauses and new Schedules relating to press conduct. | Three hours after commencement of proceedings on the Motion for this Order. |
New Clauses standing in the name of a Minister of the Crown and relating to Legal Aid; amendments to Clause 22, Clauses 24 to 30, Clause 32 and Schedule 16; new Clauses and new Schedules relating to protection of children or to vulnerable witnesses; remaining new Clauses and new Schedules; amendments to Clauses 20 and 21, Clauses 35 to 40; Schedules 19 and 20 and Clauses 43 to 46; remaining proceedings on Consideration. | 11 pm |
5. Proceedings on Third Reading shall (so far as not previously disposed of) be brought to a conclusion at midnight.
Last Wednesday, when moving the programme motion for the Report stage, the Minister of State, Home Department, my hon. Friend the Member for Taunton Deane (Mr Browne), said that the Government would introduce a supplementary programme motion if the cross-party talks on Leveson had concluded, either with or without agreement, to allow a debate on Leveson-related amendments on this second day of Report. This supplementary motion fulfils that undertaking. It allows for three hours, starting now, for the debate on this motion and on the Leveson-related amendments. Thereafter, the House will have until 11 pm to consider the remaining amendments to the Bill, with a final hour, minus Divisions, to midnight for Third Reading.
The House will be aware that the Leveson report was published at the end of November and it is now mid-March. The sooner that legislation relating to exemplary costs and damages is on the statute book, the sooner we can get on with implementing the new regulatory framework. If we do not legislate in the remaining weeks of this session, we risk a further delay of some months or more. We therefore needed to secure the debate today on the amendments relating to press conduct, and it is a consequent fact that the amount of time available to consider other amendments today is necessarily curtailed.
Mr Philip Hollobone (Kettering) (Con)
It is severely curtailed, because even if there were no Divisions, were the clauses on Leveson to last their full three hours, less than 40 minutes would be left for all the other clauses, dealing with some very important issues, some of which would probably never be reached.
Mr Lansley
My hon. Friend will note that it is a matter for hon. Members to determine to what extent they want to make progress on the next group of amendments, and the rate at which they make progress depends on the character of the debate. That is often true when we consider Report stages. The extent to which later groups of amendments can be considered depends on the time that Members choose to take in debating earlier groups. It may, of course, be that the time to consider amendments relating to press conduct will not occupy all the time available.
Simon Hughes (Bermondsey and Old Southwark) (LD)
I hope that the Leader of the House will remember that I and others have suggested that he might look with colleagues at the very simple principle that when we use up some time for other business on a Report and Third Reading day, we have injury time to replace it, so that there is an automatic carry-over to give us the guaranteed time that we were expecting.
Mr Lansley
I do recall my right hon. Friend making that point previously. I simply say that it is an inflexible approach. It is our intention to assist the House in the way we structure programme motions, and that is precisely why this programme motion has been constructed around extending two hours beyond the moment of interruption. I emphasise that we are now four hours and 40 minutes away from the closure of the debate. If a normal Report stage falls on a Monday, it is not unusual for there to be two statements or an urgent question and a statement, which takes the House from 3.30 pm to about 5.30 pm, at which point we are four and a half hours away from the moment of interruption on that day, so I stress that we are not an unusual length of time away from the moment of interruption for a debate on Report.
Mr Nigel Dodds (Belfast North) (DUP)
The Leader of the House is right in what he says about the time, but surely what is unusual and exceptional about this programme motion is the importance of the matters that we are debating. The Leveson-related amendments are some of the most important that we could be debating, given the interest out there among the public and in the House. That is the difference, and we should therefore allow sufficient time for them to be debated, as well as the other remaining important matters.
Mr Lansley
The programme motion gives sufficient time for debate on the amendments relating to exemplary costs and damages. On the wider issues relating to press conduct and the Leveson report, the House has had the opportunity for three hours of debate arising from the Standing Order No. 24 application made by my right hon. Friend the Prime Minister.
Mr Peter Bone (Wellingborough) (Con)
What is exceptional today is the Standing Order No. 24 application being granted. On the rare occasions that that has occurred, the Leader of the House has always, in my recollection, changed the remaining timetable so that proper debate took place. I do not understand why that has not happened on this occasion.
Mr Lansley
The point today is that the Standing Order No. 24 application related to matters that were part of the planned debate on amendments on Report in the first three hours. In any case, if the House agrees it, the programme motion will take us two hours beyond the normal moment of interruption. I accept that as a consequence of the pressure on the time for debate today, some hon. Members may be disappointed if a particular amendment that they have sponsored or signed does not receive the amount of discussion that they had hoped.
Sir Edward Garnier (Harborough) (Con)
This has nothing whatever to do with personal disappointment. These are matters of some considerable importance; otherwise, they would not be in the Bill. The fact that we wish to debate amendments or new clauses—indeed, the amendments and new clauses have been selected—suggests that they are considered to be of some importance by people other than their individual proponents.
Another point that my right hon. Friend perhaps needs to address is that the emergency debate that we have just had surely cannot have been in his mind when the timetable motion was drafted and tabled. He did not know that Mr Speaker would grant the three-hour debate, so the three hours taken out of the debate—or, as he might say, put in the debate—cannot have been in the calculation. We need to be clear about the thinking behind the timetable motion.
Mr Lansley
I am quite clear about the thinking behind the timetable motion. We wanted to make sure that there was sufficient time to debate Leveson-related issues. Also, it will also not have escaped my hon. and learned Friend’s notice—it did not escape the notice of my hon. Friend the Member for Stone (Mr Cash), who is no longer in his place—that we did not anticipate necessarily that the debate would start at 3.30 pm, not least because I anticipated that the Prime Minister would make a statement on the European Council. Thus, when we consider the overall time available, we find that we are not very far from where we anticipated we would be. My right hon. Friends and I understand that if we cannot have a full debate on all the issues to which the later groups of amendments relates, there will no doubt be future opportunities for us to do so.
Mr Speaker has selected the amendment in the name of my hon. Friend the Member for Wellingborough (Mr Bone) and other right hon. and hon. Members. Its effect would be to restrict today’s debate to the clauses relating to press conduct and provide an additional third day for consideration on Report, with Third Reading to be scheduled for a future date. I will not trouble the House with questions of how we could fit further days into the diminishing time remaining before the Session concludes, but I would like to make it clear that, as Leader of the House, I have sought with colleagues to provide at least two days on Report for important Bills where necessary and possible. My right hon. Friend the Parliamentary Secretary to the Treasury, my predecessor as Leader of the House, and I have done that for 14 Bills in this Parliament, which stands in stark contrast to the previous Administration’s record. Indeed, today’s consideration is in addition to what was originally set out in the programme motion the House agreed on Second Reading. It is wholly exceptional to move to three days on Report; that has been given to only two Bills in this Parliament, and only three between 2001-02 and 2009-10.
I reiterate that if we crack on we will have four and a half hours available for further consideration of the Bill on Report and on Third Reading. Given the widespread interest in the issues before us, I hope that the House will agree to the programme motion quickly so that we can proceed with the substantive business.