Conversion Practices (Prohibition) Bill

Debate between William Cash and Chris Green

2nd reading
Friday 1st March 2024 Commons Chamber

[Chris Green]

My hon. Friend is entirely right. Just because the state services are often slower than private services, we should not be satisfied that the 10-year delay is sufficient time for people to reconsider.

There is a question of equality on this matter and, again, we have to understand society as it has changed. A key thing in society, which was certainly not a concern when I was growing up, is the internet, emails and social media. Social media is powerful, and children and young people spend a great deal of time on social media. In other debates in this Chamber, people would be raising concerns about bulimia, suicide and other things that children are influenced by on social media. Those are the challenging issues raised on social media. Parents have to understand that the influences on their children can often be supportive and encouraging, but not all the influences on social media are. The Bill almost introduces an inequality: certain people can encourage and support children, young adults and others to go down a certain track, whether they meet in person or online, but the people with whom they have personal contact and will spend the rest of their lives—the family unit, their friends and the wider community—almost have their ability to communicate with their loved one curtailed.

[Sir William Cash]

Does my hon. Friend also accept that it would be impossible for a criminal trial determining whether an offence has been committed to go through all these variations to work out the nature of the evidence that should be received? It is incredibly invasive; it is based on privacy and people being able to talk to others in a mentoring context or a manner that would enable the person to understand better what is going on. For a trial to determine whether an offence had been committed would be mind-bogglingly difficult and very invasive—in practice, it would be impossible.

[Chris Green]

I agree. If the courts, prosecutors and others can go into the family home to find evidence for a successful prosecution, that would cause substantial disruption to family life. Remember that this has to be a successful prosecution for something that is not covered by existing legislation. There are already a huge number of protections in law for people right across society. As I said, this Bill ought to be able to point out compellingly and clearly areas of life that we want to be protected but are not already covered by existing legislation.

The punishment allowed under the Bill is a level 5 fine. I am not terribly familiar with the fine categories, but the House of Commons Library has provided a bit of information. It is an unlimited fine, which would be a huge cost to anyone suffering it. It is important that families are aware of the category they have been put into. Level 5 crimes include harassment, stalking, imprisonment, controlling or coercive behaviour, and exposure—commonly known as flashing. This Bill seeks to put families who believe they are having a normal conversation about their children growing up and exploring ideas about themselves and their identity, if they are not clear about what their identity is, into that category. Families having what they consider to be a normal, reasonable and balanced conversation with their children are being put in the same category as flashers. That is what the level 5 fine does, and that places a serious burden on families.

I want to reflect on the fact that Justin Webb fell foul of current legislation for remarks that came out earlier today, or perhaps yesterday, so it would be challenging for a family member, a friend, a religious leader or anyone else in wider society. If someone who deals with these issues day in, day out, as a presenter on one of the most prestigious news programmes—BBC Radio 4’s “Today” programme—can fall foul of current legislation, we should think about what we are doing when we seek to tighten up legislation. I appreciate the arguments that the hon. Member for Brighton, Kemptown made—he gave a powerful, dignified speech—but if Justin Webb can fall foul of the current legislation, how vulnerable will parents and others be who do not follow the nuances and details of these issues day in, day out? There will be a lot of concern. It will be damaging in many ways for families to feel that they will be scrutinised, under the microscope and vulnerable when doing what they can to care for their children. On that note, I oppose the Bill, but I look forward to the rest of this positive debate.

Energy-intensive Industries

Debate between William Cash and Chris Green

Wednesday 24th November 2021 Westminster Hall

[Chris Green (Bolton West) (Con)]

It is a pleasure to serve under your chairmanship, Ms Nokes. I congratulate my hon. Friend the Member for Stoke-on-Trent South (Jack Brereton) on securing such an important debate at such an important time. I wholly agree with and endorse much of what has been said so far.

One of the key starting points for energy-intensive industries—the focus of this debate—is having affordable energy, but we must have reliable energy too. One of my concerns is that the energy mix we get in the coming years must be reliable, not just in its provision—there are obvious concerns with wind turbines and solar panels—but in the costs. We ought not to be susceptible or vulnerable to these massive price fluctuations that can jeopardise businesses.

I do have a broad interest in the nuclear sector, as a north-west Member of Parliament. Much of the UK’s nuclear industry is based in the north-west of England, and the Springfields fuels centre, near Preston, is not too far away. Warrington is also a key centre. If we go down the small or advanced modular routes, the leadership scene in Rolls-Royce, in Derby, will also provide very powerful growth within the UK. If we can capture the market early on and have that manufacturing and intellectual property side in the UK, we can then sell further afield.

[Sir William Cash]

Does my hon. Friend agree that the nuclear delivery group is doing an extraordinary job? In the last two months, we have moved, very substantially, down a strong, stable route towards getting better nuclear delivery.

[Chris Green]

I agree entirely. It is welcome that the Government have renewed their focus on nuclear organisations, and that groups of colleagues within Parliament are increasingly giving that focus to the nuclear sector. I appreciate that is not universally appreciated, but the narrative and strength of argument is building up for the sector. If we want to have energy-intensive industries, we need that strong foundation of reliable energy. Even if it is a little more expensive than some alternatives, that certainty of production is immensely important, because if a business is going to invest, it has to have that confidence in the first place.

When we discuss levelling up, we have to think about the energy-intensive industries in the north of England and the midlands from ceramics to the steel industry, glass and chemicals. We have to think of levelling up as focusing in a significant sense on manufacturing—and heavy manufacturing—that requires that intensive provision of energy. It would be a positive thing if the Government set out more clearly their support for those sectors. I was concerned with the Cumbrian coal mine, which was going to produce metallurgical coal for the steel industry, but that has been challenged, not because it is going to produce thermal coal, which is a different type of coal used for different reasons. We have to have that clarity and be able to support the industry when it needs it.

We have had a trend over many years of offshoring manufacturing and allowing other countries, perhaps with lower environmental standards than ours, to take our manufacturing industry. If we are looking at COP26 and the agenda that so many countries around the world focused on and championed, we have to recognise that in recent years we have been exporting manufacturing, therefore manufacturing jobs, carbon and other emissions for domestic consumption. We do not have the emissions in the UK, but we are still creating those emissions overseas.

My hon. Friend the Member for Scunthorpe (Holly Mumby-Croft) captured the sense very well when she talked about free markets. We all ought to champion and support free markets, but we ought to be cautious when other countries around the world do not champion free markets and do not have the same appreciation of a level playing field that we do.

I welcome the Government’s direction of travel. I wish they would be even more supportive. There will be many more ways, especially listening to my hon. Friend the Member for Stoke-on-Trent South, to make it more competitive to invest in energy-intensive manufacturing in the United Kingdom.