House of Lords Reform

Debate between Wayne David and Kelvin Hopkins

Thursday 14th January 2016 Commons Chamber

[Wayne David (Caerphilly) (Lab)]

I genuinely congratulate the hon. Member for West Dunbartonshire (Martin John Docherty) on opening the debate and on his very colourful and well-informed speech. I must say that many good points have been made. I emphasise the point made by the hon. Member for North Ayrshire and Arran (Patricia Gibson), which is that we must have a debate. It is very important to recognise the complexity and difficulty of reform, and we must begin by having an honest debate.

I congratulate Scottish National party Members on the consistency and uniformity of their arguments, by and large. They showed discipline. The number of times I heard reference to China’s National People’s Congress, I would not like to say. The hon. Member for Inverclyde (Ronnie Cowan) did talk about reform, rather than abolition. I welcome that because it is healthy to have a difference of emphasis within a political group, if not a complete difference.

Few people would genuinely say that our parliamentary system does not need fundamental change. It is important to remember that the biggest change to the composition of the second Chamber came under a Labour Government, when we secured the abolition of most of the hereditary peers. That was the start of a reform that we must complete as soon as is practicable, and it must be a radical reform. I say radical reform, rather than abolition of the second Chamber, because I am not convinced that we should move away from a bicameral parliamentary system.

[Kelvin Hopkins]

Clearly we have a difference of view on this. My hon. Friend says that there has not been enough discussion about reform. There has been a lot of talk about reform, but there has not been much of a debate about the alternative of having a unicameral Parliament. That is what I want to see.

[Wayne David]

I respect my hon. Friend’s view. That is one of the discussions that we need to have in this Chamber. He is perfectly right that we need to discuss not just how reform might be brought about, but whether we even need a second Chamber. I am of the view, although I am willing to take part in a debate, that we should have a bicameral system. There is a need for a second Chamber to scrutinise, modify, suggest amendments to and delay legislation, although I think that legislation should always emanate from this House.

It is deplorable that we are seeing two sustained attempts not to introduce more democracy into the second Chamber, but to exercise control over the second Chamber’s ability to hold the Executive to account. It is important to remember that this Government have appointed more Conservative peers than Margaret Thatcher did in her 11 years as Prime Minister. There is also a debate taking place about Lord Strathclyde’s report, which I would argue is all about undermining the ability of the other place to hold the Government to account.

We know why the Government are trying to control and weaken the Lords. It is not because they believe in democracy or because they have accepted the arguments of the SNP, but because they do not like to be scrutinised or challenged, no matter where it comes from. The issue is not the primacy of the House of Commons over the House of Lords; this is about the Government trying to minimise challenge and push aside opposition.

In the last Parliament, a great deal of time and effort was spent on debating reform of the House of Lords. Sadly, it came to nothing because the Liberal Democrats refused to have a constructive dialogue with reformers on the Opposition Benches and because—it is important to remember this—the Prime Minister did not deliver on his promise and Conservative Back Benchers defended the status quo.

What is needed now is a nationwide debate about the kind of democracy we need for the 21st century. The 19th-century, highly centralised nation state based on London is surely a thing of the past. Decentralisation must be the order of the day, not just to Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland, but to the regions, cities and localities of England. There is therefore a strong case for a second Chamber—call it a senate if you like—made up of representatives of the nations and regions of the UK, possibly with people drawn from local government as well. Such a second Chamber might be made up of indirectly elected representatives or directly elected representatives. It would have the advantage of providing informed scrutiny by individuals drawn from all parts of the United Kingdom. It is a shame that most Members of the other place are either drawn from, or have a focus on, London and south-east England. That cannot be acceptable.

When we talk about fundamental change to our constitution, it is important to remember three things. First, there must be debate and dialogue between all political parties and, if possible, a high degree of consensus about what kind of changes are needed. If it is believed that political advantage is a motive behind any constitutional change, that change will not work effectively and will ultimately fail. Secondly, it is important not to see Lords reform in isolation from other changes that are needed for our democracy. I have already referred to devolution, but I believe that in our country there is a widespread thirst for popular engagement. No longer are people prepared simply to sit back and allow those who are unelected to make important decisions. It is therefore important to have a broad perspective when considering changes to our democracy.

Thirdly, we must not believe that there can be a top-down approach towards political reform, or that we are the repository of all knowledge on these matters. The people of our country need to be fully engaged in the debate on democratic renewal, and that is why we believe that there needs to be a people’s constitutional convention. Such a convention ought not to be made up of the great and good; rather, it should draw in people from all walks of life and all parts of the country. It must be focused in its discussions, and it must also inspire and enthuse people so that we give our democracy fresh life and inspiration.

Commission Work Programme 2013

Debate between Wayne David and Kelvin Hopkins

Monday 7th January 2013 Commons Chamber

[Wayne David]

My hon. Friend makes a very good point indeed, and reinforces what I was saying.

I welcome the debate because it occurs at a time when Europe as a whole is experiencing a deep economic malaise. Against the problematic economic climate that we all face, we must assess the relevance and appropriateness of the Commission’s work programme. The situation is most acute in the eurozone, as I am sure Members will agree, although of late, it has stabilised somewhat. The situation is still serious in Spain and Portugal, and in Greece it is extremely serious. However, there are signs of improvement; in Ireland, things are starting to get better. Nevertheless—

[Kelvin Hopkins]

rose—

[Wayne David]

Before my hon. Friend intervenes, I take the point that one of the great weaknesses across the European Union as a whole is the macro-economic policy being pursued by member states. There is too great an emphasis on austerity and nothing else. We need to put a firm emphasis on growth and measures to stimulate our economy so that we can work our way to prosperity once again.

[Kelvin Hopkins]

I want to be persuaded that there are signs of improvement in the European Union. Writing in The Guardian at the weekend, a Greek journalist suggested that the Greek economy will contract by a further 10%.

[Wayne David]

As I indicated, the situation in Greece is still very serious indeed. As we know, deep-seated structural problems afflict the Greek economy but there are signs of improvement elsewhere. Certainly the contagion that many people feared a few months ago does not appear to be materialising. There are signs of stabilisation, at least, across the eurozone. It is therefore important that the European Commission does as much as it can to make sure that we take that a stage further and have a coherent growth strategy. In that respect, the document before us is somewhat lacking, but it does at least recognise the importance of job creation. I cite its opening statement:

“Today’s absolute imperative is to tackle the economic crisis and put the EU back on the road to sustainable growth.”

That is a good starting point. At least there is recognition of the need to put that four-square on the agenda. However, practical measures to realise that goal are somewhat lacking.

One of the positive things about the document is that it recognises the importance of taking forward the completion of the single market. It states:

“A fully integrated and interconnected European Single Market covering telecoms, energy and transport is a prerequisite for competitiveness, jobs and growth. Achieving this requires affordable, accessible, efficient and secure network infrastructure. Accelerating the roll out of the digital economy will bring benefits across all sectors, through enhanced productivity, efficiency and innovation.”

That is particularly true. It is something that the previous Labour Government and this Government have effectively been arguing for.

The importance of the single market, particularly to the United Kingdom, should not be underestimated. In support of that point, I refer Members to the important new-year message from John Cridland, the director general of the CBI, in which, on behalf of British business, he makes it absolutely clear how important the single market and the European Union are to British business. He points out that 50% of Britain’s exports go to other countries in the EU. He argues the case coherently for completing the single market, and says that the EU is vital when it comes to enhancing our international trading relationships. He goes a stage further: he argues that it is vital that we do not just pay lip service to the single market, and that Britain stands four-square behind the European Union and argues the British case consistently inside the decision-making chambers of the EU. He says:

“It’s essential that we stay at the table to bang the drum for businesses and defend our national interest, particularly protecting our world-class financial services industry to maintain our competiveness internationally.”

European Union (Approval of Treaty Amendment Decision) Bill [Lords]

Debate between Wayne David and Kelvin Hopkins

Monday 10th September 2012 Commons Chamber

[Wayne David]

I profoundly disagree with the previous contribution. I am no fan of the Government, but it is simply sensible for the Bill to be agreed and the amendment to be defeated, because it is sensible for us to introduce the European stability mechanism as quickly as is practicable. That is in Europe’s interests, but more importantly it is in the United Kingdom’s best interests. I say that for one simple but important reason: about 40% of the United Kingdom’s trade is with our eurozone partners, so it is in our best interests for stability and eventually prosperity to be achieved and maintained inside the eurozone.

[Kelvin Hopkins]

I absolutely agree with my hon. Friend that a large portion of our trade is with the rest of the European Union. Of course, we have a massive trade deficit, and one of the reasons why is the effective undervaluation of the German currency. If the eurozone broke up, the new Deutschmark would appreciate and we would become much more competitive with Germany, which would help our manufacturing.

[Wayne David]

I am afraid that I do not share that confidence. If that course of events took place, it would be a massive step into the unknown. Nobody could say with any definiteness what would happen. Indeed, the converse of what my hon. Friend says could also be true, and there would be greater economic difficulties. It is therefore important to recognise the size of the single market and of the eurozone, and to recognise that much of our trade is dependent on the success of the eurozone.

--- Later in debate ---

[Kelvin Hopkins]

I thank my hon. Friend for giving way again. The problem is a lack of demand—the great chasm where there economic demand should be. That is the case because all the countries in the European Union, including ours, are in a process of fairly savage deflation, including deflation of demand, which means that we cannot sell anything. If the eurozone were to be dissolved tomorrow and all those countries were able to reflate, we would sell more and everyone would be better off.

[Wayne David]

Indeed; I have some sympathy with that last comment, but it is not an argument against the European stability mechanism. It is an argument, which I fully support, for having austerity and the European stability mechanism, but it is also a reason for having a positive, stimulating policy, across the European Union as a whole, to ensure an increase in demand and in the activity of the economy, which is sadly lacking at the moment.

European Union Bill

Debate between Wayne David and Kelvin Hopkins

Monday 11th July 2011 Commons Chamber

[Kelvin Hopkins]

Even though legislation can in a sense bind our successors, our successors can introduce legislation to annul previous legislation. There is a difference between the automatic disappearance of legislation at an election and an Opposition party coming into government with the commitment to reverse legislation. That is still possible, so our successors will not be bound absolutely.

[Mr David]

That is an important qualification, which I will come on to address specifically. It is important at this stage to make the general case that this is a central part of our unwritten constitution.