House of Lords Reform Bill

Debate between Wayne David and Charlotte Leslie

Tuesday 10th July 2012 Commons Chamber

[Wayne David (Caerphilly) (Lab)]

There are many of us in the House this evening who believe that reform of the House of Lords is not the most important issue facing our country. With all the problems our country faces, reform of the other place should not be a Government priority. However, the Government have placed a Bill before us and it is our duty to ensure that it is debated properly and thoroughly. That is what we have sought to do.

Over the past two days this House has had a good debate. More than 60 Members have caught your eye, Mr Speaker. Indeed, such has been the demand for speaking time that the length of Members’ speeches has been limited. Some Members have been against change, but many more have made a good case for reform of the other place. I, too, honestly believe that there is a powerful case indeed for democratic reform. That was a commitment that we on the Labour Benches expressed in our general election manifesto, and it is a view to which we still hold firmly.

However, to believe in reform is not to argue in favour of any kind of reform. The details of how the biggest change in our constitution for 100 years will come about are vital. It is all the more important that the details of the Bill, which Members on both sides of the House have seriously questioned, are thoroughly examined. A number of Members have raised their concerns about the primacy of this House. They include, for example, my hon. Friend the Member for Middlesbrough (Sir Stuart Bell), the hon. Member for Bournemouth West (Conor Burns), whom I commend on his statesmanlike resignation speech, and the hon. Members for Portsmouth North (Penny Mordaunt) and for The Cotswolds (Geoffrey Clifton-Brown), as well as many others. Apart from some Liberal Democrats, few would deny that the primacy of the House of Commons must not be jeopardised, but the Bill, as many Members have pointed out, is woefully inadequate on this crucial issue. Indeed, only yesterday Lord Pannick drove a coach and horses through the Government’s flimsy argument.

Unbelievable though it may seem, the Government seem to believe that referring to the Parliament Acts in the Bill, combined with a large dose of wishful thinking, will be enough. I do not believe that it will be, and there are very few people who share their misplaced optimism. Keeping one’s fingers crossed is not a sound basis on which to embark on Lords reform. As a number of Members have said, the issue is as follows. At present, the primacy of the House of Commons rests on the Parliament Acts, a set of conventions and the fact that the House of Commons, because it is elected, has a legitimacy that is lacked by the House of Lords. The Government have said that the Parliament Acts will remain in force, but also that they believe that the existing conventions will simply continue and that the post-reform relationship will therefore be unproblematic. That view flies in the face of virtually all informed opinion and it defies common sense. Once we have an elected Chamber without clear rules or conventions, it is inevitable that its Members will feel that they have the democratic authority to challenge the House of Commons.

[Charlotte Leslie (Bristol North West) (Con)]

Does the hon. Gentleman share my concern that although there exists a rough set of plans in Lord Steel’s reforms which could command consensus in this House, a consensus for House of Lords reform is being held hostage because of a determination to talk about one aspect, namely elected Lords?

[Wayne David]

It is indeed important to establish a consensus. I will come to that crucial point.

It is also important to have a comprehensive view of how our constitution must change, but the essential point is that the Government’s proposals will, I believe, result in the two Chambers of Parliament being locked in endless conflict, resulting in government grinding to a halt. That is not in the interests of democracy.

Members have raised a wide range of other concerns in this debate. A number expressed concerns about the issue of hybridity. Some have expressed bewilderment at why the Liberal Democrats favour it when they argued for a wholly elected Chamber in their manifesto. However, as a number of Labour Members have pointed out—they include my hon. Friend the Member for Dunfermline and West Fife (Thomas Docherty)—we are, after all, talking about the Liberal Democrats, and principle is not one of their strong points. I will make an offer to the Liberal Democrats tonight. I say to them: work with us and we will support you in working for what is in the Liberal Democrat manifesto—a fully elected second Chamber.

Members have expressed concerns today about the voting system, and about the particular kind of proportional representation that is being proposed. The hon. Member for The Cotswolds referred to the weakness of the d’Hondt system. Many Members are also perturbed about the proposed size of the second Chamber, and the proposal for part-time and full-time Members. Then there is the cost. The Government were reluctant to come forward with accurate figures, but we know that reform will not be cheap.

Significantly, a number of Members have already begun to dig down into the details of the Bill. They have expressed their unease about ministerial appointments and about the vagueness of the Government’s intentions. Several Members have also questioned the complex transitional arrangements that would take us from 2015 to 2025, but one of the biggest concerns that Members have expressed relates to the single, non-renewable, 15-year terms. My right hon. Friend the Member for South Shields (David Miliband) made a powerful case in favour of such terms, but other Members made the point that only an accountable system can be fully democratic. It is said that if there is no re-election, there can be no accountability, and the House clearly needs to examine that issue in greater detail.

In the course of this excellent two-day debate, hon. Members have pinpointed with accuracy and passion the wide range of complex and important issues that we, as legislators, have a duty to get right. As we have heard time and again from Members on both sides of the House, a major constitutional change such as this requires a referendum. As we all know, referendums have been held on devolution in Wales, Scotland and Northern Ireland. They have also been held on proposals for a Mayor of London and a Greater London assembly. There was a referendum to decide whether there should be an assembly for the north-east of England, and a referendum last year on the alternative vote system. There have been referendums on whether to have mayors in nearly 50 towns and cities, and on whether the Welsh Assembly should have more powers. There was even a referendum in Wales on the opening of pubs on Sundays, yet the Deputy Prime Minister says that there cannot be a referendum on the most important constitutional change in 100 years.