European Union (Notification of Withdrawal) Bill

Debate between Wayne David and Albert Owen

Tuesday 31st January 2017 Commons Chamber

[Wayne David (Caerphilly) (Lab)]

I campaigned hard for Britain to remain a part of the European Union. For 10 years I was a Member of the European Parliament and I learned at first hand the worth of European co-operation to the United Kingdom. For some 12 months I was the Labour party’s Front-Bench spokesman on the European Union. It is therefore true to say that I am a passionate European, but I respect and accept the result of the referendum, because we live in a democracy. Labour Members supported the referendum legislation. From a constitutional point of view, it could be argued that a referendum result is not binding, but morally it is binding on us. During the campaign, all parties clearly accepted that the result was the result and that certain actions would follow, so we are morally bound by that.

For me, the question is now not whether or not we leave the European Union, but the form of our departure and the nature of our future relationship with the EU. Article 50 is only the start of the process and, in some ways, it is far from the most important part. I wish to discuss two issues of extreme importance, which will become more important as time goes on. The first relates to my belief that it is almost inevitable that there will have to be a transitional agreement between the UK and the EU; few people seriously believe that the negotiations will be completed within two years. The nature of that agreement needs to be fully discussed. Whether Britain is part of the European economic area or there is some other arrangement, we will have to discuss the pros and cons of that agreement.

Secondly, it is important for us to focus on the so-called great repeal Bill, which will be coming to this House. In effect, it will be an act of entrenchment, taking the European acquis communautaire and putting it into British law. It is important that we make sure that in our devolved country those powers are not kept in Westminster where it is not appropriate to do so, but devolved out to Northern Ireland, Scotland and Wales. We must watch that carefully.

[Albert Owen]

My hon. Friend is right about that, which was why I made the point that the continuation of consultation with the devolved Governments is essential and should be put on a statutory basis.

[Wayne David]

Indeed it is important, and ideally it should be on a statutory basis, but in any case negotiation and co-operation have to take place. It is also important that we focus on ensuring that all European law that is supposed to be in that great repeal Bill is actually there. In that regard, we are particularly concerned about employment rights and environmental protection. We need to make the point that this is an ongoing process; once that piece of legislation is in place, that is not the end of the story. It will still be up to this Parliament, if it so wishes—I hope it does not—to unpick that legislation and erode this country’s hard-won rights on employment protection and environmental protection in the EU.

What cannot be underestimated is that the next few years will be incredibly difficult and complicated. Nobody can seriously suggest that from now on it will be plain sailing—that is not the real world. Therefore, it is imperative that for every step of this journey there is parliamentary scrutiny and parliamentary accountability. Like other Members, I am extremely concerned that the Government have not got off to a good start. They have been dragged screaming to this Chamber, protesting that they do not want to be accountable and developing spurious arguments about having a free hand in negotiation. Who on earth can, having listened to this debate, doubt that it has been good and worthwhile for democracy? This must be only the start, not the end, of that parliamentary discussion that we need to have in our democracy.

In conclusion, we are facing difficult times ahead and it is important for our country to pull together. Nobody can doubt, irrespective of which side they were on during the referendum, that it was a difficult, acrimonious and, in some cases, bitter campaign. It is incumbent on all of us, from all political sides, to make sure that as far as possible we can create a new consensus in this country about how it can go forward together and develop a new relationship with the EU. I believe there is a will to do that among Labour Members, and I very much hope that, despite the rhetoric being employed by the Prime Minister, there is the will for that to happen among Government Members, too.

It is crucial that we do not kid ourselves that, in the modern world, Britain can somehow exist in splendid isolation. The nature of our global community means that we need co-operation, partnership and engagement with other countries. Yes, let us work around the world as well, but let us not forget that we need a new relationship with the European Union. It would be in nobody’s best interests if we were to pretend that our future was somehow distinct and separate from that of the rest of the European continent.

Access to Justice: Wales

Debate between Wayne David and Albert Owen

Tuesday 15th December 2015 Westminster Hall

[Albert Owen (Ynys Môn) (Lab)]

It is a pleasure to serve under your chairmanship, I think for the first time, Mrs Moon. I congratulate my hon. Friend the Member for Swansea East (Carolyn Harris) on an excellent speech that covered most of the points that need to be considered.

I will actually start by agreeing with the Minister and the Ministry of Justice that access to justice for all is a fundamental aspect of our society. That is what it says in the consultation document on proposals for the provision of the court estate in England and Wales. I totally agree that we all want access to justice for all. Indeed, I would say that local justice and democracy are the pillars of a modern society, but we are moving away from that—I shall develop that argument a little later.

I welcome the Minister to the Chamber, because he was kind enough to acknowledge my submission to the consultation and to meet a delegation that included Citizens Advice and a local solicitor. We were able to outline many of my concerns for my area and, indeed, the periphery area of north-west Wales, including Dwyfor Meirionnydd, because the representative from the solicitor represented the whole old county of Gwynedd. However, it is Christmas, and I am going to subject the Minister to my concerns once more because it is important that they are on the record.

People know the importance of direct access to justice. The Ministry of Justice wants to close the two remaining courts in my area in Llangefni and Holyhead. Llangefni is the principal and municipal town of Anglesey. Holyhead is the largest town on the island, but also the furthest from Cardiff and London—it is on the periphery area. It is the hub to the Republic of Ireland and has a large transit population, as well as local residents. The proposal to transfer to Caernarfon court is therefore fundamentally flawed. What is more, the alternative that the Minister has talked about—the virtual courts and the digital fines—are equally flawed. Frankly, the one-size-fits-all proposal of the Ministry of Justice does not fit Wales; each part of Wales should be looked at on its merits. I understand, as I think does every Member in the Chamber, the need to modernise the justice system, but denying access is not modernisation. It is a backwards step and the proposal does not take into account people’s distances from court.

The Government talk about courts being 30 miles away and taking about an hour to reach. The journey from Holyhead to Caernarfon is 30 miles, but it can take an hour and a half. It can involve train journeys, two buses and changing. As has been said, many of those who have to travel will be witnesses, not just those who are up in court.

I believe that the proposal is flawed because it is driven by the Treasury. One of the main reasons why the exercise is being carried out now and in such a way is to save money on the estate. Yes, we need to get value for money, but the process is driven by the Treasury, rather than the Ministry of Justice. It is important to put that point on the record and I will be interested to hear the Minister’s response to it.

Access to local justice has to be practical, and people have to be able to have such access. The Minister talks about virtual courts, but they will be virtually impossible to implement. There are very few buildings in my constituency that could accommodate a virtual court. He talks about access via the digital age, but the digital age has not arrived in many rural or peripheral parts of Wales. That is an important point because the superfast broadband roll-out is happening at the exchanges, but not going to many towns and areas that need it. It would be difficult to have a virtual court in north-west Wales, for example, because the information and communications technology systems simply are not there—they are intermittent. I am pleased that the Government have done a U-turn with regard to universal coverage, but that will not come in until 2020, at the earliest, and these proposals are going through now. When will the Minister respond to the consultation exercise and make his recommendations and proposals? I believe that he should wait until we have proper infrastructure if he wants to experiment with the digital age for accessing justice.

I am conscious that other Members wish to speak, so I will not go over most of the issues that I discussed with the Minister. However, I highlight the fact that in the 21st century we still need a court system that individuals can access. The public want individuals to be tried in their area, as has happened historically. If we are to move forward into the digital age, we need the necessary infrastructure in place, and the Ministry of Justice needs joined-up thinking with other Departments.

[Wayne David]

Does my hon. Friend agree that it is particularly important that digitalisation is done properly in Wales because we are a bilingual country and people must have access to justice in the language of their birth? If that language is Welsh, they must have access in Welsh.

[Albert Owen]

My hon. Friend is absolutely right. I was going to make that point in my closing remarks, because when we talk about “local”, we are talking about local culture and local languages as well as the basic principle of access to local courts.

The Government talk about putting in place devolution and decentralisation, yet their record is one of the complete opposite. They are centralising tax offices, for example. If the Government’s proposals go through, the nearest tax office to Anglesey will be in Liverpool, which is nearer to my constituents than Cardiff. We are now talking about courts moving 30 or 40 miles away from their population, which is nothing but centralisation. I urge the Minister to look again at these proposals, to put them on hold, to talk to local communities and to listen to the consultation. He should not rush through the proposals because while I agree with him, ultimately, that we need free and fair access for all, that will not happen if these proposals go through.