Housing and Planning Bill
Debate between Viscount Younger of Leckie and Lord Beecham
Lord Beecham (Lab)
May I just point out that in Clause 53, on the same page, there is a definition of a letting agent, and that it is pretty much the same as how Clause 54(1), and the amendment, would define a property manager. So there would be consistency between the two positions. If there is to be clarification, it would presumably, on whatever basis, apply the same rules to both a letting agent and a property manager.
Viscount Younger of Leckie
My Lords, I think it would be right for me to endeavour to get a full explanation during the debates that we are going to have this afternoon. I take on board the comments of the noble Lord, Lord Kennedy, and that will be the aim. Already those behind me, and perhaps also those beside me, have put in motion a process to get some further information on top of the explanation that I have attempted to give. I will absolutely endeavour to get back to noble Lords as soon as I possibly can.
Council Tax: Social Care Precept
Debate between Viscount Younger of Leckie and Lord Beecham
Viscount Younger of Leckie
My Lords, the Government recognise that the local government settlement is challenging. Consistent with our approach to give local authorities more control over their own destiny, we are giving important new flexibilities which reflect concerns that councils have shared with us. We recognise that some councils with a low council tax base in the poorer communities will not benefit as much. That is why the better care fund, which the noble Baroness has mentioned, on top of the adult social care precept, will provide £1.5 billion by 2020. With this, importantly, average spending power per dwelling for the 10% most deprived authorities is around 23% higher than in the least deprived authorities.
Lord Beecham (Lab)
My Lords, I declare my local government interests. In Newcastle, which is suffering a cumulative loss from government cuts and cost pressures, not least in relation to social care amounting to £332 million, a 2% social care precept will raise £1.7 million. The welcome increase in the national minimum wage, which is not of course the same as the national living wage, will cost £4.5 million a year, such that over the next three years there will be a shortfall of £9.5 million. Given that the 2% increase benefits councils in better-off areas, with more people in the higher tax bands and less need for supporting social care, when will the Government recognise that it is necessary to ensure that the funding of social care ought to reflect both need and the relative yield of local taxation?
Viscount Younger of Leckie
My Lords, I have already addressed the important question of proportionality, which the noble Baroness raised. The Government have put in place a total package of £3.5 billion which will be available by 2019-20. That package is greater than the local authority associations’ £2.9 billion estimate, set out in their spending review submission.
Housing and Planning Bill
Debate between Viscount Younger of Leckie and Lord Beecham
Viscount Younger of Leckie
My Lords, I shall speak to Amendments 78B to 78YW, tabled in the name of my noble friend the Minister. They amend the housing administration regime, which is intended for use in the extremely unlikely event that a large or complex housing association becomes insolvent.
Let me first reassure noble Lords that a robust regulatory framework is already in place for registered housing associations. The regulator will retain its existing powers to help a housing association in financial difficulty. Housing administration is in addition to existing powers, not a replacement. The regulator’s existing powers have meant that there has only ever been one insolvency case in the sector. However, housing associations have become more complex and have significant levels of private debt—about £65 billion in total.
The review of the near insolvency of Cosmopolitan housing association found that the regulator’s powers may not be enough if a large, complex housing association gets into financial difficulty. That is why we have brought forward legislation to introduce an administration regime for housing associations.
I have to beg your Lordships’ patience as I explain the detail of the amendments. Insolvency law is a technical and complex subject but none the less important. I assure the House that officials have been working with lenders, insolvency practitioners, valuers and housing associations on these amendments. The amendments are necessary to address issues raised by them and to clarify how the regime would work.
Amendments 78C to 78N, 78R to 78YF, 78YU and 78YW concern the two objectives of housing administration and necessary consequential amendments. The first objective is the same as a normal administration process that applies to companies. The second objective, which is expressly subordinate to the first, is to retain the social housing within the regulated sector.
We would like to retain social housing stock in the regulated sector but recognise that, if there is an insolvency, this may not always be possible. While the administrator’s primary duty is to the creditors, if this duty can be fulfilled while keeping all or some of the social housing in the regulated sector, that is what the administrator must do.
Amendment 78P introduces a new clause. Sometimes planning obligations under Section 106 of the Town and Country Planning Act 1990 do not apply if a mortgagee enforces security over the land. The proposed new clause puts the housing administrator in the same position as a mortgagee in possession.
Through Amendments 78YG to 78YK, 78YM, 78YN and 78YQ to 78YT—I hope that your Lordships are still following me—the courts cannot allow the winding-up of a housing association without the regulator being notified 28 days in advance. These amendments allow the regulator of social housing to waive this 28-day notice period once they have been notified if they so choose. Waiving the notice period will allow other insolvency procedures to begin more quickly.
Amendment 78YV removes the ability to apply normal administration to a housing association that is a registered society. After consideration with the sector, we decided that this was unnecessary if housing administration was in place. There was also a risk that normal administration could follow housing administration, resulting in lenders not being able to access their security for over two years. Amendments 78YL and 78YP are consequential to Amendment 78YV.
Amendment 78Q sets a time limit of one year on housing administration and sets the parameters for applying for an extension. The appointment period and circumstances for extension are now aligned with normal administration. The Bill did not previously have a time limit. This change provides more certainty for lenders on when they would be able to enforce their security if housing administration fails to resolve the insolvency.
Finally, I am bringing forward Amendment 78B to make it clear that if social housing provided as a result of financial assistance given by the Government is sold by a housing administrator out of the regulated sector, the Homes and Communities Agency cannot recover that assistance from any successor in title. I hope that we never have to use these housing administration provisions and that the housing association sector continues to be financially robust. However, it is prudent that we are prepared for the unlikely event of a large or complex housing association becoming insolvent. I commend these amendments to the House.
Lord Beecham (Lab)
My Lords, I do not know whether other noble Lords have been watching it, but there has been a very interesting series on television of a Danish drama called “Follow the Money”, which would be an appropriate title for this group of amendments. That series had the benefit of subtitles and, with all due respect to the Minister, I must say that we could all have done with some subtitles, not necessarily on the day but in the form of a briefing note that could have helped us get our heads around this complicated and arcane topic.
I raise one issue with the noble Viscount. I understand, having been so advised by Shelter, that the Bill originally provided that in the event of insolvency of a housing association the first priority would be to maintain social housing in the sector and secure a transfer to another housing association. The amendments collectively before us make that objective secondary to the interests of the creditors. Therefore, the properties might simply be sold off rather than continue to be held within the social housing sector. Will the noble Viscount indicate whether he or the Government take that as an acceptable position? What would the potential impact be in the event of this crisis emerging with any particular association? Why was it necessary to change the original thrust of the Bill’s proposals and downgrade that priority of maintaining the social housing stock in favour of dealing with the needs of the creditors?
Baroness Bakewell of Hardington Mandeville (LD)
My Lords, I rise with some trepidation to speak against government Amendment 78P. I heard what the Minister said about hoping that there would be no insolvencies, but the Government appear to be expecting a number of registered providers to become insolvent during this Parliament and for the marketplace to have fewer larger housing providers. That will mean that some of the smaller ones will go to the wall.
On Amendment 78P, the land over which there is a current planning permission belonging to a registered provider that has now become insolvent would be sold on. Presumably, that would be to a developer for it to carry out the extant planning permission. However, the Section 106 planning obligations that the local authority in good faith had attached to the granting of the application, in order to serve both the existing communities around the site and the residents who would move into the proposed dwellings once the site been completed, would be waived. I fear that this is gerrymandering on a large scale and does not serve the communities within the local authority concerned at all well.
Of course, removing the planning obligations means that either the developer gets a bargain or that the housing administrator is able to get a higher price for the land. Either way, the local communities will suffer as no leisure or community facilities will be provided which were the subject of the original planning application. I fear that this is penny-pinching and shabby in the extreme.
Viscount Younger of Leckie
I believe I answered the question earlier by saying that there is an obligation to look at the needs of all the population including, particularly, those of Gypsies and caravan and houseboat dwellers. If local authorities are failing in their duty fully to assess—I am sure there are very few—the law is in place for redress to take place.
I was attempting to answer a question raised by the noble Lord, Lord Beecham, who said that the equality impact assessment failed to deal with the equality impact. The decision to introduce the clause was made with due regard to the Equality Act 2010. There is a requirement for local authorities to assess the needs of everyone, including those with protected characteristics. As I said earlier, this clause does not change that.
The noble Baroness, Lady Bakewell, raised the experience in Wales, where there is a legal duty to provide sites. We do not believe that this is necessary because our planning policy for Traveller sites is clear. Local planning authorities should identify and annually update a supply of sites to provide five years’ worth against locally set targets. I hope that also answers more fully the question from the noble Lord, Lord Stunell.
Finally, the noble Baroness, Lady Bakewell, asked whether the clause contravenes legal obligations on equalities. I may have addressed this through answering the question from the noble Lord, Lord Beecham, but the decision to introduce the clause was made with due regard to the matters set out in the Equality Act. I hope that, with these explanations and assurances, the noble Lord will withdraw his amendment.
Lord Beecham
My Lords, I listened with interest to the noble Viscount. It seems to me that the Government are adopting a Janus-like posture, wanting to give one impression to the community affected and another to the general community. I do not find that particularly palatable. We would be sending the wrong message if we simply accepted the Government’s position, and I wish to test the opinion of the House.
Housing and Planning Bill
Debate between Viscount Younger of Leckie and Lord Beecham(8 years, 8 months ago)
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Lord Beecham (Lab)
My Lords, Amendment 103BB deals with a minor but to some people significant point, which is the compensation to be payable when land is acquired by a development corporation. The amendment simply provides that the Secretary of State may by order set out a formula for determining fair compensation to the landowner in those circumstances. That seems a reasonable proposition.
Viscount Younger of Leckie (Con)
My Lords, I turn to the detail of the compensation amendments, Amendments 102CK and 103BB, tabled by the noble Lord, Lord Cameron, and the noble Earl, Lord Lytton, but spoken to today by the noble Duke, the Duke of Somerset.
I will outline briefly the principles of compensation for land taken by compulsion. These points have arisen in an earlier amendment in Committee. The compensation code is underpinned by the principle of equivalence. This means that the owner should be paid neither less nor more than his loss. The code provides that land shall be purchased at its open-market value, disregarding the effect of the scheme underlying the compulsory purchase.
The land is valued in a construct called the no-scheme world, whereby any increase or decrease in value that is due to the scheme is disregarded. Land will always have its existing-use value but market value also takes into account the effect of any planning permissions that have already been granted and of the prospect of future planning permissions. This is generally known as hope value, as the noble Duke eloquently pointed out. In the context of compensation for compulsory purchase, this is assessed according to the planning assumptions in the Land Compensation Act 1961, which require the valuer to assume that the scheme underlying the acquisition is cancelled. I remind the House that these were extensively revised and debated in the Localism Act 2011.
In some situations, there will be no hope value, because the individual claimant could not have obtained planning permission for some more valuable use. For instance, the land might be in an isolated rural location where permission for development would have been unlikely to be granted in the absence of a comprehensive scheme requiring compulsory purchase powers. In other situations, perhaps where land is acquired near an existing settlement, there will be pre-existing prospects for development on the land. In lay man’s language, that is development potential that existed prior to the scheme. The strength of those prospects will be reflected in the market value of the land.
On Amendment 102CK, it has been said that land acquired for housing by means of a development consent order should always attract development value. If the land had development potential in the absence of the scheme underlying the development consent order, that hope value would be reflected in the market value and the compensation to be paid. But an increase in the value of the land that is solely attributable to the scheme would be disregarded under the compensation code.
I turn to Amendment 103BB. The noble Lord, Lord Beecham, and the noble Baroness, Lady Andrews, have suggested that there is something unique about the land taken for new towns that requires the Secretary of State to provide a formula for compensation. New towns may well fall into the class of case 1 mentioned earlier, where there is no pre-existing hope value, as there is no reasonable prospect of development in the absence of a comprehensive scheme requiring compulsory purchase powers. In this situation, compensation in the no-scheme world is likely to be at or close to agricultural values. Schedule 1 to the Land Compensation Act 1961 makes it very clear that for new towns any increase in value that is attributable to the development of other land in the new town must be disregarded, where that development would not have been likely to be carried out had the area not been designated as a new town.
I thank the noble Earl, Lord Lytton, for the amendments spoken to by the noble Duke, the Duke of Somerset. I suspect that your Lordships will not be very keen to be further enlightened this afternoon by a technical debate on these particular matters. However, we shall look carefully at what the noble Duke said, and I shall write further to him and the noble Earl before Report about these matters.
Housing and Planning Bill
Debate between Viscount Younger of Leckie and Lord Beecham
Viscount Younger of Leckie
My Lords, I made it clear at the beginning that this is to do with simplifying the legislation.
Lord Beecham
My Lords, by the standards of Committee stage on the Bill, this has been a relatively short debate, and I will not prolong it too much. But I find myself slightly puzzled at the position that we end up in.
First, I thank those who participated. Most have supported the amendments. One of the most telling phrases was that of the right reverend Prelate, who said that the provisions in the Bill failed to capture the nuances of the needs of Gypsies and Travellers. I think that that is right. I particularly welcomed the participation of my noble friend Lady Whitaker, who is a tireless campaigner for the groups that are the subject of this amendment.
I was, however, slightly puzzled by the contribution of the noble Lord, Lord Lansley. I very much welcomed the rare degree of agreement between us, which we did occasionally experience in his ministerial past, but the notion that somehow it was the system that created the problem in his constituency where, as he put it, a particular group took possession of land and developed it, strikes me as a little odd. This is not the Wild West. Presumably they did not just walk on to somebody else’s land and erect fencing around it. They must have acquired the land and they must, presumably, have got planning permission for building on it. The implication was that they had developed it and sold it and moved on. The noble Lord is shaking his head. Perhaps I have misunderstood him.
Lord Beecham
My Lords, I suspect that this will be another very brief discussion. Schedule 9 amends the Housing Act 2004 to provide that any financial penalty should be an alternative to prosecuting a rogue landlord for an offence. The Explanatory Notes give no justification for this change, and, given what we know about some of the appalling conditions that rogue landlords create or tolerate, I see no reason why they should be immune from a criminal prosecution.
It is perfectly legitimate that a financial penalty should be imposed, but it is a matter of good sense to ensure that totally unacceptable behaviour is treated as a crime, in the hope of deterring others from committing the same offence and behaving disgracefully towards their tenants, rather than their simply being able to pay a financial penalty without any publicity. The deterrent effect of prosecution ought to be invoked.
Indeed, even leaving aside deterrence, conduct of the kind that we regularly read about is simply appalling, and society’s rejection of such an approach by landlords should be made clear by retaining the possibility of prosecuting them. In the absence of any explanation of why the change should be made, I hope that the House will express a view and the Government will reconsider this strange provision. I beg to move.
Viscount Younger of Leckie
My Lords, Amendment 84, tabled by the noble Lords, Lord Kennedy and Lord Beecham, would make a change to Clause 117 so that a local housing authority could impose a civil penalty in addition to, rather than as an alternative to, prosecuting a landlord. The Bill as drafted provides local housing authorities with a choice on whether they want to go down the civil penalty route or the prosecution route, depending on the seriousness of the offence. We have looked at this carefully and come to the conclusion that it would be disproportionate to use both regimes in relation to the same conduct.
Local authorities will benefit from other measures proposed in the Bill. For instance, they can apply for a rent repayment order where the rent has been paid from housing benefit or universal credit where certain housing offences have been committed, as set out in Part 2 of the Bill. This is in addition to the powers already available through the Housing Act 2004 whereby magistrates can impose unlimited fines on conviction for the most serious housing offences. I hope that after this brief explanation the noble Lord will agree to withdraw the amendment.
Viscount Younger of Leckie
I can certainly offer a reply to the noble Lord. I hope that with the explanation that I have given, and in answering the questions, the noble Lord will agree to withdraw his amendment.
Lord Beecham
My Lords, I confess that I am not at all satisfied with the Minister’s reply. We are seeing a change in the law to put a financial penalty as an alternative to prosecution. As my noble friend rightly said, we are talking about some appalling examples, which would make the likes of Rachman blush, if he were still around, of abuse of tenants and appalling housing conditions. What is effectively being said in the legislation is: you can buy out of the consequences of that appalling behaviour by an unspecified fine—unspecified in the Bill; I appreciate that there is scope.
The behaviour is worse, in many respects, than many of the offences that are routinely dealt with in the courts in terms of the impact on citizens. It is simply not good enough to allow rogue landlords to escape with a financial penalty but without the stigma of being convicted of a criminal offence. I urge the noble Lord to consult again his ministerial colleagues, because I agree with my noble friend that we should seek on Report to reverse the current position. It will not take long, but my goodness it is important. In those circumstances, I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.
Lord Beecham
I thank the noble Viscount for giving way. I entirely endorse the amendments in the name of the noble Lord, Lord Young, and my noble friend Lord Berkeley. I sympathise with the amendments in the name of the noble Baroness, Lady Gardner, who is temporarily not in her place, although I have some difficulties with the wording. Amendment 84E would insert a clause about sinking funds which states:
“The buyer of a leasehold … is required to make periodic deposits”.
She refers again to the buyer of a leasehold in proposed new subsection (4), but of course the leaseholder need not have purchased—
Lord Beecham
I am so sorry, I thought it was in this group. Has it been degrouped?
Viscount Younger of Leckie
Perhaps I could clarify for the noble Lord that we are speaking to Amendments 84BA, 84D and 84G.
Lord Beecham
I apologise to the Committee. The group that I have includes the noble Baroness’s amendments. But if the groups were changed only this morning, perhaps I should withdraw my apology and confirm merely that I support the amendments of the noble Lord, Lord Young, and my noble friend Lord Berkeley.
Viscount Younger of Leckie
I thank the noble Lord, Lord Berkeley, and my noble friend Lord Young for their amendments. I welcome the consideration of issues around the operation of leasehold, which I know are of interest to many in the House.
Amendment 84BA seeks a right for a leaseholder to obtain an order restricting a landlord’s ability to recover the costs of appearing before a court or tribunal as an administration charge. My noble friend Lord Young has raised an important issue, which others have also expressed concern about today, including the noble Earl, Lord Lytton, and the noble Lord, Lord Campbell-Savours. As the Committee will be aware, legislation already allows tribunals and courts to make this type of order where a landlord is seeking recovery of costs through a service charge. I should like to consider this further and I hope, with that assurance, that my noble friend will agree to withdraw his amendment.
I will now address changes proposed in Amendment 84D, tabled by the noble Lord, Lord Berkeley. I listened carefully to what the noble Lord said. As noble Lords will know, the Crown is not bound by legislation except where that is specifically provided for. The underlying exceptions to the Leasehold Reform Act 1967 and the Leasehold Reform, Housing and Urban Development Act 1993 apply to Crown land, which for the purposes of those Acts is defined as including the Crown Estate, the Duchy of Lancaster, the Duchy of Cornwall and the interests of any government department. There are no plans to change the exemptions set out in statute.
However, the Crown authorities covered by this exemption have committed, through a voluntary undertaking renegotiated in 2001, that the Crown would, as landlord and subject to specified exemptions described in the undertaking, agree to the enfranchisement or extension of residential long leases under the same qualifications and terms which apply by virtue of the 1967 Act and the 1993 Act. These specified exemptions include property that stands on land held inalienably by the Crown, and where there are security considerations. They also include where properties, or the areas in which they are situated, have a long historic or particular association with the Crown.
Housing and Planning Bill
Debate between Viscount Younger of Leckie and Lord Beecham
Viscount Younger of Leckie
My Lords, to complete this short debate, I repeat that the issue of planning will come up later on in the Bill. But I make the point that compulsory purchase orders can slow up planning. This is one of the issues that we are looking at in order to speed up the planning process.
Lord Beecham
My Lords, I am grateful to all noble Lords who have participated in this debate. I am glad that the noble Viscount is connected with broadband up to a point. But perhaps he will go a little further and be more proactive than reactive and initiate discussions with the sector about whether this would be a useful addition rather than wait for somebody to pop up with the idea in due course.
The noble Lord, Lord O’Shaughnessy, referred to capacity in planning departments and my noble friend made some response to that. It is the case that there are several hundred thousand outstanding planning permissions up and down the country, where builders have done nothing and are presumably sitting on rising land prices and what they hope will be the rising price of constructed buildings. But, in addition, local authorities with housing planning responsibilities face very large cuts in their budgets. It will be difficult to sustain the planning function—or, indeed, any other function—to the extent which is desirable. That has to be a real concern.
The Government need to bear in mind the possibly self-serving response of the builders, which has been referred to, and lean on their political friends—not normally to be found on this side of the House—to ensure that authorities have the wherewithal to meet these new responsibilities. There is such a thing as the New Burdens Doctrine. We are getting the burdens but not the outcome of the doctrine, which is that these additional responsibilities should be funded.
I will end on a slightly different note, which is more of a question. Again, I do not anticipate an answer. During the discussion and the emphasis on the value of self-build and community schemes of this kind, which I entirely endorse, it struck me that there is the possibility here of involving those bodies—further education colleges and the like—which train people in construction industry skills to enable them to get involved in these projects. This may be useful in terms of the cost of a project and in training much-needed skilled workers to carry out not only this kind of work but others as well. Perhaps the Minister would ask his officials to look at this—not immediately, as it is not a crucial issue at the moment—to see whether the industry and training bodies such as FE colleges and others could be persuaded to look at this small area. This might help get both the buildings on the ground and the skills in the industry.
Viscount Younger of Leckie
I agree with the important points raised by the noble Lord about skills and I will certainly take them back to the department. There are other, broader issues of developing skills such as architecture. The noble Lord has made some very good points.
Lord Beecham
My Lords, that being the case I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.
Viscount Younger of Leckie
Perhaps I may make some progress. We all recognise the need to build more homes, and they should be sustainable, but we do not need to make building them more difficult than necessary. We need to consider whether it is realistic for the majority of builders to deliver even higher standards without unduly affecting site viability or housing delivery.
In the productivity plan, Fixing the Foundations: Creating a More Prosperous Nation, published last summer, we committed to keeping the energy standards under review, and we will ensure that any changes that may be introduced are cost effective. This includes looking at not just new buildings but across the whole of the existing building stock, where carbon emissions tend to be higher and energy efficiency is poorer than for new homes.
In raising or lowering the energy requirements for new homes, it is always necessary to consult carefully with industry. We should not forget that we are talking about a technical area which impacts across the construction sector. It would therefore not be workable to deliver the proposed standard within six months. Even if it were, it is not prudent to have such a rigid framework for delivery in the Bill, or to set requirements such as this in primary legislation. If, in the light of consultation, any slight adjustments to requirements were needed, we would not be able to make them without further primary legislation.
I understand the intention of the new clause proposed by the noble Baroness, Lady Parminter, but it would create a significant regulatory burden on housebuilders at a time when we need to increase housing supply and access to home ownership. We are giving the industry breathing space to ensure that it catches up with the already highly energy-efficient new standards that came into force only in 2014.
I would like to say more in attempting to address many of the questions that were raised, particularly by the noble Lord, Lord Krebs. Some builders, big and small, already go beyond the current minimum standards. New homes built to the performance requirements introduced by building regulations in 2014 are highly energy efficient. They need to have high levels of insulation, double-glazed windows with low-energy glass, and A-rated, high-efficiency condensing boilers.
Perhaps the nub of this debate is the difference the amendment would make to new homes. I understand the strength of feeling on the Liberal Democrat Benches in particular, but the current regulations have already pushed the fabric energy performance of homes to the point where further increases may result in only marginal returns in energy efficiency. Therefore, to meet the proposed levels of carbon compliance, homebuilders would need to consider further technical solutions for providing heat and power to the home—for example, photovoltaic panels, solar hot-water systems, and air and ground-source heat pumps. These would add considerably to construction costs for homebuilders. The noble Lord, Lord Stunell—
Lord Beecham
Can the noble Lord comment on that question? The noble Lord who spoke before indicated that the cost would be around £3,000. Does the Minister have a figure to counter that suggestion?
Viscount Younger of Leckie
Yes, I was just coming to that point. The noble Lord, Lord Stunell, raised the issue of costs. Research by the Zero Carbon Hub indicates that, for an average semi-detached home, the lowest cost of meeting the proposed standard would add almost that sum of £3,000 to the construction costs. Originally we thought it would be £10,000—indeed, I think that figure was mentioned by somebody in this debate.
The new clause proposed by the noble Baroness, Lady Parminter, would increase the bill cost for all housebuilders, irrespective of their size. With regard to small builders, the availability of small sites is declining and extra regulatory costs would impact on the viability of these developments, leading to even fewer small sites.
Viscount Younger of Leckie
This is definitely getting into a technical area, and I am happy to write to the noble Lord with the details of the research to establish the figures we have come up with.
Lord Beecham
May I ask a non-technical question—I am about as technical as the Minister—if £3,000 is an excessive amount, what would be an acceptable amount?
Viscount Younger of Leckie
I reiterate the figure that we have. I am very happy to write to the noble Lord, Lord Beecham, and to the noble Lord, Lord Krebs, to give the specific technical details as to how we reached that figure. But that figure is the figure we have.
Lord Beecham
It is not about how the Government reached that figure but what, in their eyes, would be an acceptable increase in cost to provide the result the amendment seeks to achieve. If £3,000 is too much, what would be acceptable?
Baroness Young of Old Scone
I wonder whether the Minister might clear up a confusion that is arising in my mind. It strikes me that we are not talking about a cost that falls upon the builders of these homes, because it will be reflected in their price. The point we are making is that, if an additional cost of £3,500 would genuinely be passed on to the purchaser of the home, within a period of less than three years they would have recouped that amount and be in profit thereafter, for however long they stayed in that home. It is not about an undue burden on the builders, but about trying to remove an undue burden on the purchasers and residents of those homes in perpetuity.
Carbon Emissions
Debate between Viscount Younger of Leckie and Lord Beecham
Viscount Younger of Leckie
I understand that the noble Lord is exercised about this but research has shown that the zero-carbon standard would have placed a significant regulatory burden on housebuilders and developers. These changes will give rise to the challenge of building more homes, including new starter homes. The carbon offsetting element—the so-called “allowable solutions”—would count as a tax on developers and would be of no benefit to the homebuyer, so we are giving the industry some breathing space.
Lord Beecham (Lab)
My Lords, does the Minister agree that the Government’s claim to be the greenest Government ever has, to coin a phrase, gone up in smoke? If not, what is the basis on which he could rebut that charge?
Viscount Younger of Leckie
We have a very strong record to play upon. According to the Carbon Plan, published in 2011, improvements to the current building stock present an opportunity to save up to 75 million tonnes of carbon dioxide equivalent. DECC’s latest projection shows that less than 5 million tonnes of CO2 would have been saved during the fourth carbon budget period through these schemes.