Terrorism Act 2000 (Video Recording with Sound of Interviews and Associated Code of Practice) (Northern Ireland) Order 2020

Viscount Younger of Leckie Excerpts

Friday 10th July 2020 Lords Chamber

Moved by

[Viscount Younger of Leckie]

That the draft Order laid before the House on 8 June be approved.

[Viscount Younger of Leckie (Con)]

My Lords, this order puts into practice a revised code of practice governing the recording with sound of interviews of persons detained at a police station in Northern Ireland under Section 41 of, or Schedule 7 to, the Terrorism Act 2000. A copy of the draft revised code of practice was laid before Parliament on 8 June 2020.

The purpose of this code of practice is to provide protection to both the person being interviewed and the officers conducting the interview. I start by thanking the Police Service of Northern Ireland for the vital work that it carries out on a daily basis to keep communities across Northern Ireland safe. The threat level from Northern Ireland-related terrorism remains “severe”. Despite this, ongoing work by police and MI5 means that most people in Northern Ireland are not directly affected by the “severe” terrorist threat.

However, I assure noble Lords that these proposed revisions will not change the way interviews are conducted in any way and, instead, relate to how interviews are recorded and how the recordings are stored. The changes will allow the Police Service of Northern Ireland to start using digital recording technology in line with the practice commonly adopted in England, Wales and Scotland. The changes to this code of practice will impact how the interviews are recorded and how the recordings are stored. They will apply only to interviews that take place after the updated code of practice has been brought into force. I will now outline the main revisions.

First, the code has been amended to allow the Police Service of Northern Ireland to use modern digital recording technology. Your Lordships may not believe it, but the current Police Service of Northern Ireland recording capability for Terrorism Act interviews is by cassette tape, a now rather archaic method which emerged back in the 1960s. It is an understatement to say that this equipment is difficult to source due to the rise of digital technology, and that is why it is important to maximise this opportunity to allow updated recording media or a secure digital network to be used instead, thereby bringing Northern Ireland into line with technology used in the rest of the UK. It is worth noting that the Police Service of Northern Ireland already possesses the necessary technology and utilises it for other, non-Terrorism Act, interviews.

The order had a smooth passage in the other place last week and, to allay any concerns about secure storage, the Minister provided assurance that section 1.8(b) of the updated code confirms that recordings will be stored on a secure file server which is accredited by the national accreditor for police information systems, in accordance with the UK Government security classification policy.

The safe storage of these interviews is enabled through both a hardware and software-based solution rather than being IT Cloud-based. Through this new technology, interviews could be conducted on either fixed or portable interview recording devices—for example, a laptop—then uploaded and stored in a central system. This central system is protected and managed through a partnership of Police Service Northern Ireland’s internal security team and a specialist third party.

The second revision I will outline for your Lordships is that the code of practice has been amended to closely shadow the equivalent code of practice for Great Britain. While this means some changes to language and format, the purpose and key content of the code remain the same. It is worth noting that the draft code does not exactly replicate the code in Great Britain, reflecting the devolution of policing and justice functions in Northern Ireland and consequent differences in approach adopted in different jurisdictions.

I draw noble Lords’ attention to the fact that the code for Great Britain, for example, contains references to post-charge questioning provisions as set out in the Counter-Terrorism Act 2008, but this proposed code does not. This is because the 2008 Act stipulates that, before its provisions on post-charge questioning can be commenced, police and criminal evidence—PACE—codes must be amended to reflect how post-charge questioning should be dealt with and recorded. While the Home Office amended the PACE codes for Great Britain in 2012, in Northern Ireland this function falls to the devolved Northern Ireland Department of Justice. To date, this has not been done and it has therefore not been possible to commence post-charge questioning provisions under the Terrorism Act.

I reassure noble Lords across the House that the Government ran a 12-week public consultation on the proposed amendments to the code of practice. This consultation engaged local politicians, the judiciary, eminent legal and security bodies and academia. It may be indicative of the non-contentious, minor and technical nature of these amendments that the majority of those engaged in consultation were rather silent. We received six responses, all of which were supportive. Three of those respondents suggested other minor amendments to the code; these were duly considered, and most were accepted. The full details of these suggestions were published in our consultation response document, which some noble Lords may have read.

One of the respondees was the Police Service of Northern Ireland, which suggested adding remote monitoring to the code. Remote monitoring is routinely used in the Serious Crime Suite in Musgrave Police Station in Northern Ireland. Remote monitoring uses technology to enable the senior investigating officer, interview co-ordinator or any other person who has justification, to monitor the interview process from another room. As remote monitoring is routinely used in Terrorism Act interviews, the PSNI recommended including it in the code of practice.

I hope that noble Lords will agree that, while these revisions are technical and minor, they are important. They align the code of practice used in Northern Ireland with the code used in the rest of the UK, they allow the Police Service of Northern Ireland to utilise digital recording technology in terrorism interviews, and they future-proof the code. Accordingly, I beg to move.

--- Later in debate ---

[Viscount Younger of Leckie]

My Lords, I am pleased that this order has been broadly welcomed by the House today, with speeches from my noble and learned friend Lord Garnier, the noble Lords, Lord Adonis, Lord Morrow and Lord Wood, and many other noble Lords. As my noble friend Lord Caine said, the Government’s first priority is to keep people safe and secure right across the United Kingdom. The PSNI, MI5 and others in communities and the wider public sector, who work tirelessly to keep people safe, have—and must have—our full support for the public service they give. As my noble friends Lord Holmes and Lord Caine said, rather more eloquently than me, they do fantastic work.

Another theme of this debate is that there is no excuse for paramilitary activity. This was raised by the noble Lords, Lord Murphy and Lord Kilclooney, my noble friend Lord Robathan and the noble Baroness, Lady Ritchie. Terrorism, paramilitary violence and criminality have no place in Northern Ireland. They must not hold us back from progress towards a peaceful and prosperous future. Those involved offer nothing but harm to communities. Their callous disregard, in recent weeks, for the safety and well-being of communities stands in stark contrast to the focus of police and others who have been working hard to save lives and protect people.

Preventing violent attacks takes a great deal of effort; it also requires the right resources. To reassure the noble Lord, Lord Browne, we have consistently provided PSNI and others with additional resources to improve the security situation. On top of funding that PSNI gets from the Department of Justice Northern Ireland, the UK Government have invested significantly in PSNI: more than £160 million in the 2015 Parliament. We should give credit where credit is due to my noble friend Lord Caine for helping to bring that about. We have also provided £25 million of match funding to the Northern Ireland Executive’s five-year tackling paramilitarism programme. It is why the commitments in New Decade, New Approach that we supported to reform the justice system are also so important.

I shall address a question raised by the noble Lord, Lord Kilclooney, about why this order is coming now. It was not so much to do with the absence of an Assembly but because the order relates to national security and falls under the responsibility of the Secretary of State and is not devolved. I am sure the noble Lord knows that, but I wanted to confirm it.

There were a number of questions about security, in particular cybersecurity, raised by my noble friend Lord Wei, the noble Lord, Lord Bruce, and others. Secure data is very important. It is important that the Police Service of Northern Ireland can bring an end to the archaic use of cassette tapes, as I said earlier, and avail itself of modern digital recording technology to bring its practice in line with the rest of the UK. I have outlined the steps taken by the Police Service of Northern Ireland to ensure that digital recorded interviews are stored on a secure file server accredited by the national accreditor for police information systems in accordance with the UK government security classification policy. I trust this provides adequate reassurance, but I will look carefully at Hansard for the specific questions raised, in particular by my noble friend Lord Wei. I also take note of the report that my noble friend Lord Holmes produced. I will be sure to look at it—I have not looked at it yet—and will make sure that the Northern Ireland Office also does so.

The noble Lord, Lord Thomas of Gresford, asked how long the recordings are stored after interviews. Although the secure storage of recordings is included in this code of practice, the retention period for recordings is not covered by the code. The Police Service of Northern Ireland has confirmed that current cassette recordings are retained indefinitely. Once it moves to digital recording of interviews, the retention period will be seven years, but I reassure the noble Lord and the House that this is currently under review.

It is clear that the Northern Ireland Office has listened to those who took the time to respond to this consultation and has amended the code accordingly. The Northern Ireland Human Rights Commission recommended that access to interpreting services should be made available on a case-by-case basis. This was raised by the noble Lord, Lord Bruce, who regarded it as a particular issue for those who might have hearing, reading or writing difficulties. He made some very good points. I reiterate that they will be looked at on a case-by-case basis, but PSNI has accepted this recommendation without reservation and stated that extra resources should not be required to make sure that such people are looked after properly and fully.

The noble Lord, Lord Carlile, raised important points. First, I should say to the House that he is right: we should give huge credit to the judiciary in Northern Ireland and there are safeguards and reassurances on interpreters, which I have largely covered.

In relation to historical recordings—there was not much in the debate about them—I want to say that the changes set out in this legislation will apply to future interviews only. This Government have recently reaffirmed their commitment to introduce legislation to address the legacy of the past, as the House will know, in Northern Ireland in a way that focuses on reconciliation, delivers for victims and ends the cycle of reinvestigations into the Troubles that has failed victims and veterans alike.

That leads me on to a very important point that was raised by many noble Lords—the noble Lord, Lord Hain, the noble Baroness, Lady Ritchie, the noble Lord, Lord Morrow, my noble friend Lord Empey and the noble Lord, Lord McCrea—concerning victims’ payments. I was in the Chamber this week when the noble Lord, Lord Hain, raised this important matter once again and received a response from, I believe, my noble and learned friend Lord Keen of Elie. Other noble Lords have referred to this as a campaign by the noble Lord, Lord Hain, and of course it is. No one wishes the matter to be taken forward more than me, the UK Government and the Northern Ireland Office. I was very moved by the noble Lord’s account of Paddy Cassidy. I feel deeply about his tragic story and his death. However, we must also not forget—we certainly do not—the terrible injuries that have been suffered by many others during the Troubles. Victims have waited too long already, and we will continue to prioritise supporting the Executive’s delivery of this scheme.

The Government provided a legislative framework in the absence of an Executive, and the Executive must now deliver. The Executive need to designate a department that can own the policy and implement the scheme, so that applications can be processed and payments made to victims. The necessary resources, including personnel, can be allocated to expedite payments. This is also the precursor to the independent board that is being set up to determine the details of payments to individuals. It is vital that this matter is dealt with as urgently as possible.

The current framework provides a fair, balanced and proportionate basis for helping those who suffered most throughout the Troubles, and I repeat that it is very important that all parties move forward. What has been happening? The Secretary of State has written and spoken to the First Minister and Deputy First Minister on several occasions—the most recent being yesterday—about the need to address the delay to the scheme.

The noble Lord, Lord Hain, spoke about statistics. I think that I have largely covered that matter. I do not want to go over the figures again, but I hope that the House agrees that the UK Government, in conjunction with the Northern Ireland Office, are taking resourcing in Northern Ireland particularly seriously. That will continue.

The noble Lord, Lord Kilclooney, raised the subject of the consultation, and perhaps I can give him a few more details. It was launched on 22 July and closed on 14 October. I reassure him that it was a public consultation and was publicised by the Northern Ireland Office Twitter account. However, we also wrote to 37 relevant stakeholders inviting them to respond, and we received six responses. I hope that that gives the noble Lord some reassurance.

The noble Lord, Lord Adonis, asked about other codes of practice being updated on the back of this one. Perhaps I may give him some reassurance that the Home Office is currently considering making similar updates to PACE Code H and the code for Great Britain, and that the Department of Justice in Northern Ireland is considering adding remote monitoring to the PACE (Northern Ireland) Order Code H.

If I understood correctly, my noble friend Lord Empey asked about the locations of terrorism interviews. I reassure him that this code applies to all interviews under Schedule 7 to, or Section 41 of, the Terrorism Act that take place in a police station in Northern Ireland. In practice, Musgrave Police Station, as I am sure he knows, is a designated TACT suite for the police service, but Antrim can also be called upon as a back-up.

I was asked why this has taken so long. I think that that requires a letter, as I am running out of time. That matter was raised by a number of noble Lords, not least the noble Lord, Lord Adonis.

My noble friend Lord Holmes asked about a wider review of how the data is held. The answer is that the secure storage is accredited by the national accreditor for police information systems, which I have covered already.

I realise that time is running out. I think noble Lords will know me well enough to know that I will look at Hansard extremely carefully and make sure that a full letter is written to all those who have taken part in this debate.

In closing, let us get back to the order. It is, as the House acknowledged, largely technical. The aim is that it will impact not how interviews are conducted in any way, only how they are recorded and stored. I also re-echo the view of nearly all those in the Chamber this afternoon: the Police Service of Northern Ireland has, and must have, our full support for the public service that it gives. I commend it and all the law enforcement agencies that do their utmost, sometimes quietly and sometimes out of sight, in delivering safety and security for the public in Northern Ireland and Great Britain. I commend this statutory instrument to the House.

Motion agreed.