Transparency of Lobbying, Non-Party Campaigning and Trade Union Administration Bill

Viscount Younger of Leckie Excerpts

Monday 11th November 2013 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Donaghy (Lab)]

I shall speak briefly to the amendment. As the Committee will know, I was chair of ACAS from 2000 to 2007. To that extent, I suppose I have an interest in attracting work to my former organisation. If the Minister is correct in saying that the Government are not looking for confrontation in Part 3 of the Bill—some of us still need convincing of that—they will be looking for ways of avoiding the ultimate sanctions that are contained in Part 3. I think this offers a way out of an impasse. It might help the parties, particularly if there are difficulties in agreeing factual statements, if ACAS were to be invited to intervene. The Minister will know that, if this is not specified, ACAS will not be able to intervene. There needs to be a statutory requirement before it can become involved. It is important that this is written into the Bill. I support my noble friend Lord Monks on this amendment.

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department for Business, Innovation and Skills (Viscount Younger of Leckie) (Con)]

My Lords, it is not entirely clear why this amendment is being proposed. I imagine that there could be concerns in relation to vexatious allegations or allegations by an employer seeking to undermine a trade union’s ability to take industrial action. In practice, where an inspector conducts an investigation, there is no complainant or respondent with respect to that investigation. It is not clear why ACAS conciliation between a union under investigation and a potential witness would ever be appropriate in the context of an investigation to establish whether a union was in breach of its duties under Section 24. Therefore, I hope that the noble Lord will feel able to withdraw his amendment.

[Lord Monks]

I am well beyond the hat-trick stage of getting disappointing replies this evening. I think that an opportunity is being missed here. ACAS could help to smooth the introduction of these measures, and I am sorry that the Government are not a bit more interested in this subject. However, I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.

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[Lord Stevenson of Balmacara (Lab)]

My Lords, during the break I had a look back over the points that we have been making to the Government. A bit like my noble friend Lord Monks, I am slightly surprised that the Government have taken such an aggressive line towards what we are saying. If the Minister recalls my contribution to the debate on the group before this, I was saying—I thought in as conciliatory a manner as possible—that we were trying to offer a series of improvements to what we think is a bad Bill. However, not a single one of them was taken up.

In our opening two debates, I asked a total of, I think, 14 questions. I have not had answers to any of them and I am under pressure from my colleagues here to keep pushing the Minister to come back with at least some general responses if he cannot give detailed ones. However, I can hope—because I know that he is an honourable and decent person—that I will get a letter at a later date that perhaps covers them. I hope that that will be the case.

On the ACAS amendment, which was meant in the spirit of support—there was no particular difference of principle here—all we got was, “I can’t really understand why the Opposition would bother putting up this amendment”. When some of these amendments were put forward in the other place, we at least had a decent reply from the Minister. Although he did not accept all of them, he did accept one or two points, and at least there was a sense of dialogue and debate. I am very disappointed at the way that this session has gone today. I hope very much that, when he comes to reply, the Minister will make a considered response to the points raised by my noble friend.

[Viscount Younger of Leckie]

Perhaps I may attempt to lower the temperature slightly. There was certainly no intention of being peremptory, particularly with the short response that I gave on the previous group of amendments. I can only say that, if it would be helpful, I would be more than happy to write to the noble Lord and indeed to the noble Lord, Lord Monks, with some further details on that reply, which I took as read as being rather short. There was absolutely no intention of dismissing it, if that was implicit in the noble Lord’s reply.

As for the questions that the noble Lord, Lord Stevenson, has raised during the debate today, which I much enjoyed, I have already pledged to write to him to answer any questions that he has raised. Indeed, he has raised quite a few, so I hope he will accept the fact that I write letters and like to get into the detail. The very least I can do is answer the questions clearly and fully, and also address some of the concerns of the noble Lord, Lord Monks. I hope that that is very clear to the House today.

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[Lord Stevenson of Balmacara]

My Lords, as has been made evident from the speeches that we have heard, this is about ensuring that, should the Bill progress and be brought into law, it will operate with a reasonable chance of success. As we have heard, it puts additional red tape on a number of bodies which are technically independent. They are part of civic society admittedly, but not those which are necessarily controlled by any one group. They are self-governing or self-operating, so it will take time for it to be absorbed.

There are new procedures and assurers—if that is what they are to be called, it is an ugly name—who will need to be nominated on a list to be promulgated. There have to be appointments made, new reporting processes brought in and inspections, and all sorts of procedures relate to that. We have a plethora of activity and burdens on trade unions that need to be bedded in. If the Government were thinking about the effectiveness and efficiency of the operations, it makes sense to give it time to bed in and get the best chance.

We have also heard from those who know—and perhaps they know a lot better than those who are advising Ministers—about the practical difficulties of trying to get changes into all these independent bodies in sufficient time and on an appropriate scale in order that the legislation can be made to work effectively. What does a bit of a delay cost us? We might return to that.

This is also about trying to do legislation properly. I made plain in my earlier remarks that the Minister’s letter-writing needs will prey heavily on his mind over the next week or two, because of all my questions. About seven of them were about the report from the Regulatory Policy Committee on the impact assessment. I will run over one or two of them, because they raise issues that are not susceptible to the timescale to which we are told the Bill is being progressed. In effect, what was called for was a new impact assessment. I asked the Minister whether we will have one, but he did not respond.

Will there be new figures? Will the RPC be able to look at and make comment on them? Will the figures do what the RPC requests of the Government and involve those stakeholders and others who were not properly consulted before? Will there be an opportunity for the Bill to be refined, to answer the question that the RPC asked about how accurate an updated membership register would have to be for a union to be considered compliant with the new recommendations? Unless that is made clear, it is very hard to assess or even guess whether the costs that will be placed on the trade unions are worth the additional assurances available to those who will in time wish to depend on that register.

All this is criticised to a great extent in the impact assessment report and, therefore, we assume a new report will need to be put in. The Minister said that part of the blame for this was because those carrying out the impact assessment did not get sufficient responses from the trade unions. That may be because trying to consult with a body in a four-week period starting at the end of July and finishing before the end of August is not likely to maximise the chances of getting a good response.

There may be other reasons, but it is more that there is a lack of understanding about how independent bodies such as trade unions operate and how to get the information that is available within them for compliance. It does not exactly fill one with confidence to read in the report from the RPC that the impact assessment provides figures in relation to small unions that seem to have been based on one respondent. The Government could do better than that. That will take time and compete with the other issues that we are talking about and, therefore, again plays to a suggestion in the amendment that there should be a delay in commencement until such time as the Secretary of State has placed in the Libraries a review of the burden of regulatory responsibility. That is just one proposal but others that have been discussed by my noble friends suggest a date that would allow sufficient time for the legislation to bed in. I recommend that proposal also because it would provide an alternative approach.

This point regarding commencement will come back, as my noble friend Lord Whitty mentioned. There are other commencement issues regarding Parts 1 and 2. Other amendments in the group technically relate to Part 4 and we will therefore have an opportunity to debate them again. I invite the Minister to give us a considered response, unless he feels that behind all this the “drop dead” date of May 2015 will suffice, and stating anything other than what he previously said would therefore merely be provocation.

[Viscount Younger of Leckie]

My Lords, Amendments 178, 179 and 180 would amend Clause 41 to delay Part 3, either in whole or in part, from coming into force. I have assumed that the noble Lords intend the amendments to be applied together to delay implementation to 1 January 2016 at the earliest.

Noble Lords are clearly anxious that trade unions should be given sufficient time to prepare. I entirely share this sentiment. I hope that, to this extent, I can offer a positive and emollient answer to the noble Lords, Lord Monks, Lord Lea of Crondall and Lord Whitty. I agree with the noble Lord, Lord Stevenson, that it makes sense to allow time for bedding down or bedding in—I am not sure which but we will go for both for the moment. Unions will be required to amend their rules, which will need agreement from their members. They will also have to identify an eligible assurer and contract with them. Again, agreeing those contractual arrangements will take time. I am sure that noble Lords opposite will agree with me on that.

Moreover, many unions will be part way through a reporting year if the provisions were to come into effect immediately. This would mean deviating from standard legislative practice whereby provisions are not applied retrospectively. That is why the measures in Part 3 will not be applied retrospectively. Unions will be required to submit their certificate for the first full reporting year after the changes become law. Given that unions can have different reporting years, the point at which the changes take effect on each individual union will vary. However, all unions will have up to five months from the end of their reporting year to submit their certificate to the certification officer.

Noble Lords may wish to note that should the provisions in Part 3 come into effect in March 2014, a union whose reporting year ends on 31 March would not need to submit a report for the year ending 31 March 2015 until the end of August 2015. A union that reports every calendar year would have even more time to prepare; it would have to submit its report for the year ending 31 December 2015 by the end of May 2016. Furthermore, even if Parliament granted Royal Assent by March 2014, it is likely that the provisions in Part 3 may come into effect later. The Minister for Employment and Consumer Affairs in the other place has given an assurance to consult on the order for the eligibility of the assurer, which will take time.

I turn to Amendment 156A. A copy of the impact assessment prepared by BIS was placed in the Libraries of both Houses on 11 September. This was mentioned earlier by the noble Lord, Lord Monks. It drew on responses to a targeted consultation in the summer when we sought evidence of the impact. We engaged specifically with trade unions on this point at a meeting arranged by the TUC with some of its affiliates and BIS officials. We are continuing to work with the Regulatory Policy Committee to consider how to improve the evidence base. Should unions or anyone else have any further information, we should be pleased to receive it. We will place a revised copy of the impact assessment in the Libraries before the legislation is commenced.

[Lord Stevenson of Balmacara]

Can the noble Lord repeat that last phrase? Before which date will a copy of the impact assessment be placed in the Libraries?

[Viscount Younger of Leckie]

Before legislation is commenced.

[Lord Stevenson of Balmacara]

I am being particularly dense and time is moving on but we are in Committee. Are we saying that this impact assessment may not be available to us before we conclude discussion of this part—in other words, that the Bill may have passed through its proceedings in the Lords before the impact assessment is placed in the Libraries? The noble Lord said it was the commencement date.

[Viscount Younger of Leckie]

It is indeed. The noble Lord, Lord Lea of Crondall, raised the issue of post-legislative scrutiny, which is a fair point to make. It is good practice to evaluate the effect of legislation once it has had time to have an impact. We would expect to do this in due course so I hope that is some reassurance to the noble Lord.

The noble Lords, Lord Monks and Lord Stevenson, raised the issue of a revised impact assessment. I have already touched on the impact assessment in my earlier speech but I emphasise that the impact assessment that has been published is based on the quality of evidence we received. We will be seeking to improve it but to do so will need more data than have so far been provided. We will be working on this and will present a revised impact assessment before the legislation is commenced, which is what Amendment 156A seeks.

The noble Lord, Lord Whitty, raised the issue of having an opportunity to see the draft secondary legislation. The Government have already said that there will be consultation on the order to set out the eligibility criteria for the assurer. We will continue to engage unions and others as we develop the detailed implementation of the provisions to support a smooth transition.

The noble Lord, Lord Whitty, returned again to the issue of whether the Bill was intended to regulate the way in which unions choose to pay political levies. He mentioned that I had mentioned it once, maybe twice, before. Whether it was once or twice, I now emphasise it a third time to be absolutely clear over our position. There is nothing in Part 3 that is intended to change how unions do this. The Government’s intention is to provide greater assurance about the accuracy of membership registers. There is no wider intention and regulation of union political funds is a different part of the 1992 Act from that amended here. We have offered, as I said earlier, to assist the leader of the Opposition with his planned reforms if he wishes. I cannot be any clearer on re-emphasising this point. I ask the noble Lords to withdraw, or not to move, their amendments.

[Lord Monks]

My Lords, during the Minister’s reply, which I have to concede was a bit more interesting than some of his others, there were one or two chinks of light. There was something of interest in the timetabling and lead dates, although they are well short of where unions need to be to do this in an economical and sensible way. There is still quite a lot of pressure for some unions in particular to get these things done. The view on our side, which has been consistently expressed, is that this is a remedy that is looking for a problem to solve. There is no requirement for it. As the impact assessment says, there is nil effect and nil impact. For a Bill that is so marginal to anything important, it is extremely disappointing to see a department that is committed to economic growth and stirring the British economy to a higher level of performance wasting time addressing a non-problem. We thought the suggestions from this side, about giving us plenty of time to make adjustments and explain it to people, deserved a better fate than the one that you have just given us.

I welcome the BIS talks with the TUC. I hope that the Minister will be in listening mode during those talks. I also welcome that some adjustments have already been made as a result of those talks, and what the Minister said about there being nothing in this Bill that will affect political funds.

I hope the noble Lord, Lord Tyler, is not too disappointed because I thought he had rather ambitious hopes for the Bill as the first step towards a new settlement on party funding. I do not think that it is; I do not think that it is that significant. Otherwise, these Benches and his Benches would be absolutely full.

As the Minister says, I am sure that we shall return to the issue about commencement dates at the next opportunity and I now withdraw the amendment.