Procedure and Privileges Committee

Viscount Stansgate Excerpts

Monday 17th July 2023 Lords Chamber

[Lord Cormack (Con)]

My Lords, I would just like to add a few words to what the noble Lord, Lord Foulkes, has said. This House is frequently criticised because of its size. We have trotted out in newspaper leaders and articles that it is second only in size to the Chinese National People’s Congress, but if one actually looks at this House and studies it, the vast majority of work falls on the shoulders of a relatively small number of the 800 or so Members.

It is also clear, when one looks at the list of those who have taken leave of absence, that there are big question marks over some of them. Of course, an ambassador, such as our current ambassador in Italy, should, without question, be given leave of absence. We know that when he retires from his diplomatic career, he will be able to add many wise words to our counsel in this place. The same was true, of course, of the noble Baroness, Lady Ashton, when she had a very important job in the European Union and had leave of absence.

However, there are others, whose names I will not mention, who do not necessarily measure up to that and are not necessarily very ill for a long period. Of course illness or caring for a loved one should be taken into account and accepted as a proper reason, but there ought to be much more frequent reviews of this. My understanding is that, although it is supposed to be looked at by committee on a regular basis, that actually happens very infrequently. I am most grateful to my noble friend and delighted that it is being examined at the moment.

I would be grateful if, when my noble friend replies to this brief debate, he would tell us how many currently are on leave of absence, and how many have been for more than two years. My view is that, unless there is an overriding reason—health, a diplomatic appointment or something like that—a leave of absence should not be readily granted for more than a parliamentary Session. After all, if someone does not appear during a parliamentary Session, under the terms of the 2014 Act, known as the Steel Act, that Member forfeits membership. There is a very strong case, although I will not expand on it now, that those who do not put in a certain minimum attendance should forfeit their right because you are not able to play a constructive part in a Chamber of Parliament unless you attend on a reasonably regular basis and participate.

I hope that the review to which my noble friend referred—he said it would be coming back in the autumn—will take evidence and discuss this with bodies such as the Campaign for an Effective Second Chamber, which I have the honour to chair, and which has Members from all political parties and the Cross Benches and meets on a frequent basis. I hope we will have the chance to make a submission. If numbers are something that bring obloquy on the House, we ought to try to deal with that in a constructive and sensible manner. Granting indefinite leave of absence without rigorous examination, frankly, does no service to Parliament in general or to this House in particular.

[Viscount Stansgate (Lab)]

My Lords, I was not intending to speak so I shall be brief. I endorse many of the comments made by the noble Lord, Lord Cormack.

As the House knows well, we are entering a period when there is going to be a great deal more debate about the future and the nature of the composition of the membership of this House, and that will extend beyond the next general election. When I read, as all Members have done, in the recent report by the Speaker’s committee on the composition of the House that the House of Commons Select Committee is currently investigating this House then I think there is all the more reason why we ourselves should have a full and proper discussion and not wait until the next election, so I fully endorse the Senior Deputy Speaker’s suggestion that we return to this in the autumn.

[The Senior Deputy Speaker]

My Lords, I thank the noble Lord, Lord Hunt of Wirral. On what he said about “uncharted territory”, my view is that the noble Lord’s committee has acquired expertise on these matters of sifting extremely quickly, and I place on record my gratitude to previous members and current members and staff for their considerable work in this regard.

On the question of leave of absence, we have had three very helpful contributions. The work that will be getting under way, which I mentioned in prefacing this debate, is precisely for the reasons that have been articulated. We need to get this right and it needs to be appropriate. The reference regarding leave of absence is to “temporary circumstances”. One can interpret “temporary” in different ways, and we have heard various examples of rather longer periods of temporary circumstance when a Member takes leave of absence.

To answer some questions, I knew the answer to the first one, which is that 38 Members are currently on leave of absence, but then a helpful note was passed to me with a figure that I did not know, which is that 18 Members are on leave of absence for more than two years. So those are the two figures.

On future dialogue, as I have said, I very much welcome contributions, submissions or one-to-one meetings with any Members who have particular thoughts on this matter. There is an opportunity for your Lordships’ Select Committee to look at this in the autumn, because we want to make sure that it is contemporary and correct. We are of course mindful that there is the ability for some of our Members to be away for the reasons that we all know and, I hope, to come back and make a strong contribution—sometimes because of the experience they have had in other disciplines and tasks.

We have heard very helpful comments from Members of the House today. In the meantime, I commend the report to the House.