Borders and Asylum

Viscount Hailsham Excerpts

Tuesday 2nd September 2025 Lords Chamber

[Viscount Hailsham (Con)]

My Lords, I wish to raise a question about the legal obstacles to immigration. I suggest that it would be helpful if the Government produced a consultation document setting out in detail the obstacles that they believe arise with regard to immigration policy. I have in mind a consultation document identifying treaties, conventions, international obligations and domestic procedures and laws that may stand in the way of an effective immigration policy. When we have that kind of consultation document, we can have a more informed discussion as to what we should do about it.

[Lord Hanson of Flint (Lab)]

I am grateful for the suggestion from the noble Viscount. He will know that we have published an immigration White Paper, which trails a number of potential measures that are going to be looked at in principle, including Article 8 of the ECHR and a range of other measures that we are going to put in place. The immigration White Paper trails those issues because, for the very reason that he has mentioned, we want to ensure that there is further consultation on some of the key issues.

My right honourable friends the Prime Minister and the Home Secretary are in constant discussion with countries that were our former European Union partners, as well as countries outside the European Union, about what needs to be done in relation to the pressures and those legal issues. There were meetings in May this year between European Union countries and non-European countries of which Britain was part, and there will be further discussions. I hope that, if the noble Viscount looks at the immigration White Paper, he will see that there is a range of trails that will lead to further policy discussions in due course.

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[Lord Hanson of Flint (Lab)]

I am grateful to the noble Baroness. When people speak about leaving the ECHR, I always wonder what rights they do not want. Is it the right to a free trial? Is it the right to not have modern slavery? Is it the right to not have exploitation at work? I am never quite sure which one of those rights people do not want. My forefathers and relatives in the past fought hard to ensure we have decent rights at work, including the right to a fair trial and the right to be free from slavery: all those things are embedded. Only a very small number of countries have not signed up to the ECHR. That is not to say—which is why I have said it—that there are not tweaks and interpretations we can make. That is why we will be looking at how we deal with Article 8 in the first place.

I will also, with due respect, challenge the idea that there are pull factors and that people seeking asylum are featherbedded. I do not regard that to be the case. There is no benefit being claimed. No allowance at any meaningful level is given to asylum seekers. We are also trying to end some of the pull factors by tackling very hard illegal working, which undercuts and undermines real people doing real jobs, exploiting people and undermining legitimate businesses.

So I say to the House as a whole that it is a very complex, multilayered issue, but the Government are trying, with a range of measures, to deal with this in a way that does not inflame the situation but looks at long-term, positive solutions to bear down on genuine problems.

[Viscount Hailsham (Con)]

May I tackle the Minister on what he said about the ECHR? It is perfectly true that it incorporates important rights. It is equally perfectly true that those important rights can be incorporated in domestic law, and already are by human rights legislation. The fundamental difference is that, when the European court makes a decision which we as a Parliament differ from, we cannot change its effect in this country. If we were to repatriate the process to the domestic courts, Parliament ultimately would have a decisive say and could overrule the courts. That is what a democratic nation should seek to achieve.

[Lord Hanson of Flint (Lab)]

I think we will have to have an honest disagreement with the noble Viscount. That is not my view of how this works. My view is that we are all party to a European court and convention. That is not a European Union issue; it is a Council of Europe issue. There are countries not in the EU and in the EU which have abided, since 1950, in the aftermath of a world war that split Europe apart, by a convention that gives basic rights to individuals. I support those basic rights, but that does not mean we cannot examine how they are interpreted. That is where the Government are coming from. Different parties are asking different things, and that will be a debate we will have, but I am trying to show the noble Viscount that there are, in my view, benefits to the ECHR as well as areas of potential challenge.