Public Bodies Bill [HL]

Viscount Eccles Excerpts

Tuesday 23rd November 2010 Lords Chamber

The principles behind my amendments are as follows: if a proposal is put forward on which consultation should take place, whether it is major or not, the Government should say, first, what is being proposed; secondly, they should tell people how to make representations, should they wish to do so; and thirdly, at some stage, the Government should publish their views on the consultation and summarise the responses received on it. Those are the fundamental principles behind open and transparent consultation. That supplements the basic point made in the amendments of my noble friend and the noble Lord, Lord Hunt, that consultation should be completely open to anyone who wants to take part. Those are the fundamental principles, and it would be good if the Minister could confirmed that that is the view of the Government and perhaps give a hint at a further stage that the principle—if not all the detail that I have proposed—of consultation with the public as a whole and individuals can be written into the Bill.

[Viscount Eccles]

My Lords, I wish to make a brief comment on bodies not being brave enough to comment on what is in front of them. We have had some discussion of the Administrative Justice and Tribunals Council. If your Lordships look at its website, you will see a printed comment by the chairman stating that he is very disappointed in this development. He goes on to say why he is disappointed and how he is going to behave in the interim—although he accepts that policy is a matter for the Government. While I take the points being made in various parts of the Committee, I hope we do not overstate this situation.

I am wearing my Royal Botanic Gardens, Kew, tie, and I was happy to hear a comment from that organisation earlier this afternoon. There is a long way to go with the Bill. It is dangerous to say that the board of the Royal Botanic Gardens, Kew, will not answer a question. I suspect that it does not believe that it will be in Schedule 7 by the end of these debates.

[Lord Newton of Braintree]

My Lords, I am tempted, once again, by a reference to the Administrative Justice and Tribunals Council. I referred earlier to my historic interest in it. I take my noble friend’s point. I had been wondering whether to make the same point, but the Committee ought to be aware that the Administrative Justice and Tribunals Council is not in the same position as the organisations listed in Schedule 7—it is for the chop. Therefore, any uncertainty or question of avoiding the chop later does not arise. I personally think that serious issues still need to be considered in respect of the AJTC, as I indicated earlier, which will be the subject of a later amendment. However, to put it bluntly, as things stand, the AJTC has nothing to lose.

--- Later in debate ---

[Lord Whitty]

My Lords, if that is where the line is, we understand it. Public bodies were set up primarily to administer policies which have been established by Parliament. Therefore, I still think that their inability to comment on policies pursued by government and others, or to inform Members of this House or another place of their opinion of the Government’s approach in this Bill, is a very severe inhibition of democracy. I think that is what the noble Lord is now saying. I understand that they can talk to their own departments and that they can respond in those areas, but if they cannot even inform Members of Parliament of their views, I think that is a restriction on the ability of Parliament to make a judgment.

[Viscount Eccles]

My Lords, it would help me if the noble Lord, Lord Whitty, would tell the House how he could be prevented from making his opinions known if he wished to make them known to anyone?

[Lord Whitty]

My Lords, as a Member of this House, I can say what I like. As an officer of one of the bodies covered by the Bill, the injunction is that I shall not inform or campaign, or lobby Members of Parliament about a view which that organisation has and, in this context, a view which it has over its own future. I think that is a pretty severe restriction and it is something to which this House may wish to return. I do not want to pursue it further, but I put down a marker now that this seems to be quite an interference of the normal process of parliamentary government.

[Viscount Eccles]

My Lords, perhaps I may have one more go at this. The noble Lord, Lord Whitty, and I have held positions in public bodies in our careers. If someone sent me that injunction, I would pay no attention to it.

[Lord Clark of Windermere]

My Lords, perhaps I can give example of the Information Commissioner listed in Schedule 7. One of his specific tasks is to adjudicate on the actions of government in withholding or providing information. Therefore, he is independent. Is the Minister saying that if a Member of this House made an inquiry of the Office of the Information Commissioner or any other public body it would not be right for the Information Commissioner or the other body not to provide the factual information to Members of this House?