Digital Markets, Competition and Consumers Bill (Fourth sitting)

Vicky Ford Excerpts

Committee stage
Thursday 15th June 2023 Public Bill Committees

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Business and Trade (Kevin Hollinrake)]

I have no further questions.

[Vicky Ford (Chelmsford) (Con)]

Q Do you see Google and Apple acting in collusion and taking similar moves, or are they different moves? Do you see examples where they are putting similar blocks against businesses?

Kelli Fairbrother: Yes. It is interesting, because there are differences between the two ecosystems. Whereas I do get transaction-level data from Google, for example, I do not get it from Apple. Apple moved first to lower the price points from 30% to 15%, and Google took at least another six or 12 months after Apple moved to create that small business tier. Generally, they seem to be both on this path of using their dominant market positions to extract as much value from me. The question I would love to hear Google answer when they come in later is that these are our customers; my customers are also your customers. I just do not really understand why, if you can see that there is actual consumer harm happening, you are not working yourselves to address it.

[Vicky Ford]

Q Christian, do you see them acting—do you think they are in collusion?

Christian Owens: I would not want to say that that is definitely happening. I think it is rather coincidental that within six to eight weeks of any price change happening in one ecosystem, it tends to happen in the other, as mentioned with the small business tier of 15%, with the subscription tier after one year also reducing to 15%. It does seem that way.

[Vicky Ford]

Q You have been very brave, Kelli, in coming and talking about your experiences, because there will be some companies that say, “I don’t dare say that, because these guys have got so much power over me.” There are other issues where women sometimes do not speak out when they say that people have got power over them, so you are obviously being very brave. Do you think there is enough protection for people’s confidentiality in this Bill that others will feel that they can talk about what is happening?

Kelli Fairbrother: I am afraid that I am not a lawyer on the depth of confidentiality. From our side, we would love to see a little bit more transparency in the consultation process, so if there is action being taken by the DMU, we would love to make sure that we are being consulted if it affects our area. I am not sure I have a strong opinion on the confidentiality piece itself.

[Vicky Ford]

Q Christian, do you have any further—?

Christian Owens: No, not any specific details on this.

[Seema Malhotra]

Q On a slightly different area, there were some concerns raised by some Members in the debate on the Bill about the Government changing the appeals process to one based on judicial review, as opposed to a merits-based review. How important, in your view, is that, and what would you want to see if the Bill progresses through Parliament?

Kelli Fairbrother: It is absolutely critical that judicial review is the standard that is used, because I think we have seen time and time again, in markets all around the world, that when Governments act, Apple and Google do their best to try to get around the work that is being done. They lawyer up—they have millions to spend on appeals slowing things down—and there really is a sense of urgency. This is existential for a lot of small app developers, so we would really urge that the Bill passes, it is not watered down and it passes without delay and without dilution, I think we would say.

Christian Owens: I agree.

[Andy Carter (Warrington South) (Con)]

Q I have just downloaded your app, so you have got another customer there.

[Vicky Ford]

He is such a charmer.

--- Later in debate ---

[Anna Firth]

Q So you agree that it needs reform.

Tom Morrison-Bell: It is being reformed. The developers will have those choices, and those choices are being scrutinised by the CMA to make sure that they are good for consumers, that they are good for companies like the ones you mentioned, and that they are appropriate in the ecosystem.

[Vicky Ford]

Q If you are so keen at Google to work with the CMA and other competition authorities to get issues resolved quickly, why did Kelkoo tell us this morning that its issue is unresolved and has been going on since 2009, and why did the EU Commission need to make the announcement today about the investigation into ad tech procedures that it started two years ago, minus a handful of days? It seems to me that Google does not actually get these differences resolved in anything like a timely way.

Tom Morrison-Bell: I think there are a few things to unpack there. With respect, the Kelkoo case refers to the Google Shopping case with the European Commission. The remedy that was agreed by the European Commission as the competition authority was rolled out by Google in 2017, around 60 days after the finding was heard. The appeals are still going on, because there are different points of law that are being considered, but the remedy—

[Vicky Ford]

Q So it is six years of appeals.

Tom Morrison-Bell: But, importantly, the remedy that was agreed by the Commission has been in place for six years. That is not necessarily going to change if the points of law change. The remedy has been in place for that time, and the courts considered the opinions of various different complainants and Google as part of that appeal process.

[Vicky Ford]

Q What about this latest one, on ad tech, which has been going on for two years?

Tom Morrison-Bell: The Commission’s inquiry process has been going on for two years, rather than a legal process.

[Vicky Ford]

Q But I thought that you were trying to say to us that, where there was an issue, you would work to get that resolved really quickly with the competition authorities.

Tom Morrison-Bell: The proposed participative approach in the UK is different from how the competition system works in Europe.

[The Chair]

Order. I am afraid that that brings us to the end of the time allocated for this session. On behalf of the Committee, may I thank our witness for giving evidence today?

Ordered, That further consideration be now adjourned. —(Mike Wood.)