Bishops and Priests (Consecration and Ordination of Women) Measure

Debate between Tony Baldry and David Winnick

Monday 20th October 2014 Commons Chamber

[Sir Tony Baldry]

I hope this whole debate will be joyful, because this is a very joyful day for the Church of England and society as a whole.

The conundrum has been: how to try to maintain the theological breadth and diversity of the Church of England while securing a solution that avoids any appearance of equivocation over the Church of England’s commitment to equality between men and women. Or, as I said in a speech to General Synod in 2010, shortly after I was appointed Second Church Estates Commissioner, the Church of England could have women bishops or not have women bishops, but one thing Parliament would not tolerate was any suggestion of second-class women bishops. As the House will recall, in November 2012, the earlier Measure failed at General Synod. That resulted in my having to answer an urgent question in the House, which indicated the depth and breadth of concern across the House. There was subsequently a half-day’s debate.

I think everyone in the Church of England felt chastened by the failure to reach agreement, and the Archbishop of Canterbury set in place a process of facilitated listening and discussions between all the various groups in the Church to seek a way forward. That process of facilitated listening and discussion led to a much simpler Measure, which is before the House today.

[Mr David Winnick (Walsall North) (Lab)]

I am not a believer, as I have said on previous occasions. This Measure requires parliamentary approval, and we are all Members of Parliament, but is the right hon. Gentleman aware that, having voted 20 or so years ago for women to become priests, it was very difficult—certainly for me, as well as many others in the House, I am sure—to understand why there should be a glass ceiling? I am pleased that the decision has been reached to have no second-class category in the Church of England as far as women are concerned.

[Sir Tony Baldry]

I am grateful to the hon. Gentleman for those comments, and I hope that view is shared by everyone and all Members of the House.

Gaza (Humanitarian Situation)

Debate between Tony Baldry and David Winnick

Wednesday 5th February 2014 Westminster Hall

[Sir Tony Baldry]

Yes, and I very much hope that there is time for the hon. Lady to contribute in detail to the debate. Baroness Morris of Bolton made that point in the other place: the most vulnerable families are suffering terrible burns from using inadequate heating and cooking utensils.

Christian Aid went on to say:

“In December, the WHO”—

the World Health Organisation—

“reported a shortage of 30% of medicine and 50% of medical disposables and raised concern about the decreasing ability of the fragile health infrastructure to cope with critical shortages. Moreover, patients often encounter protracted delays in attaining permits to exit through the Erez crossing with Israel…In November 2013, a 24-year-old male patient with hearing disorder was arrested during security interview at Erez checkpoint. According to Mezan Center for Human Rights, 11 Palestinians were arrested at Erez checkpoint while trying to seek specialized medical treatment, of whom 5 were patients and 6 accompaniers…Since 2013, 154 Palestinian civilians have been victims of attacks in the Access Restricted Areas or ‘Buffer zone’, 11 of whom were killed, including two children. Most recently, on 24 January 2014, Israeli forces shot and killed a Palestinian civilian protesting near the border…and injured several others. Gazan fishermen are also subject to frequent Israeli attacks. Already in 2014, at least 7 shooting incidents have been recorded against fishing boats within the 6 nautical miles limit.”

Christian Aid further observes:

“Clearly Israel has a duty of self-defence towards its citizens from any attacks, but the indiscriminate and regular use of live ammunition against civilians violates basic principles including the obligation to distinguish between civilians and combatants at all times and constitutes a breach of international human rights and humanitarian law.”

Christian Aid highlights another concern, which is echoed by organisations like Human Rights Watch:

“The explicit and punitive closure policy is entrenching the separation between the Gaza Strip and the West Bank, which are considered as one territory under international humanitarian law. This cannot help the cause of peace or foster an atmosphere of optimism for the future.”

Human Rights Watch observes:

“Israeli policies on Palestinian residents have arbitrarily denied thousands of Palestinians the ability to live in and travel to and from the West Bank and Gaza...the list of Palestinians whom it considers to be lawful residents of the West Bank and Gaza territories as separated families cause people to lose jobs and education opportunities bar people from entering the Palestinian Territories, and trapped others inside them...Israel has never put forth any concrete security rationale for blanket policies that have made life a nightmare for Palestinians whom it considers unlawful residents in their own homes...the current policies leave families divided and people trapped on the wrong side of the border in Gaza and the West Bank.”

It is difficult for non-Palestinians nowadays to gain access to Gaza. I understand that when my right hon. Friend the Minister of State was recently in the region, he was able to visit the west bank but was prevented from visiting Gaza, allegedly on security grounds. Of course, Israeli journalists are unable, under Israeli law, to visit Gaza. For contemporary updates we have to rely on journalists who have recently been able to visit Gaza. In The Observer on 26 January Harriet Sherwood, the paper’s middle east correspondent, who has made more than 20 visits to Gaza, wrote:

“The people of Gaza are reeling from a series of blows that have led some analysts to say that it is facing its worst crisis for more than six years, putting its 1.7 million inhabitants under intense material and psychological pressure…Power cuts, fuel shortages, price rises, job losses, Israeli air strikes, untreated sewage in the streets and the sea, internal political repression, the near-impossibility of leaving, the lack of hope or horizon – these have chipped away at the resilience and fortitude of Gazans, crushing their spirit.”

[Mr David Winnick (Walsall North) (Lab)]

The right hon. Gentleman has already mentioned many of the problems faced by Gazans. Is not one of the worst aspects of the situation the fact that 90% of the water in Gaza is undrinkable? Half the population of Gaza are aged 18 and under, and the Israelis are taking every opportunity to make it difficult to access drinkable water in Gaza. Military action has destroyed a lot of the water facilities. I emphasise the point that 90% of the water in Gaza is undrinkable, which is a scandal in itself.

[Sir Tony Baldry]

I agree with the hon. Gentleman that it is intolerable in any part of the world for large numbers of people to be deliberately denied decent drinking water for long periods of time.

Harriet Sherwood went on to observe in her article:

“Gaza is still blockaded and hope is rare. Israel controls most of its borders, deciding who and what can get in and out. Almost all exports are still banned; fishermen are regularly shot at by the Israeli navy; families are still separated.”

Oral Answers to Questions

Debate between Tony Baldry and David Winnick

Thursday 21st November 2013 Commons Chamber

[Sir Tony Baldry]

My hon. Friend makes a good point. The sooner we can resolve the issue and have women deacons, priests and bishops in the Church of England, the sooner the Church will be able to move forward and fulfil its broader national ministry.

[Mr David Winnick (Walsall North) (Lab)]

After the disappointment of last year, this is indeed welcome news. Perhaps those members of the clergy who still have reservations—I hope that they are few in number—should come to the House of Commons and see the exhibition in the Admission Order corridor showing the struggle that women had to get the vote and the right to be elected to the House. Does the hon. Gentleman agree that, now that the Church of England is taking this welcome step, other religions and faiths that discriminate against women—I could list them, but I will not—should follow the same path?

[Sir Tony Baldry]

May I gently say to the hon. Gentleman that it is slightly more complex than he suggests? Some of those who are opposed to women bishops are themselves women. They are conservatives and evangelicals who have theological objections because they believe in male headship. I do not think that we can necessarily castigate people who are against women bishops as being against women. The good news is that we now have a way forward that will enable us to have women bishops—I hope by the end of this Parliament.

Oral Answers to Questions

Debate between Tony Baldry and David Winnick

Thursday 6th December 2012 Commons Chamber

[Mr David Winnick (Walsall North) (Lab)]

It is 46 years, almost to the day, since I raised in a debate the difficulties faced by those with colour in trying to get jobs—before the Race Relations Act 1976 was passed. I did not believe that nearly half a century later I would be on my feet protesting against discrimination against women. Is it not absolutely essential that there should be the utmost sustained parliamentary pressure to change a situation in which women are discriminated against in such a blatant manner in the Church?

[Sir Tony Baldry]

I entirely agree. Everyone in the Church of England needs to understand that, so far as Parliament and the wider community are concerned, this issue is increasingly seen as the Church of England discriminating against women. That is fundamentally wrong and fundamentally bad for the image and work of the Church.

Women Bishops

Debate between Tony Baldry and David Winnick

Thursday 22nd November 2012 Commons Chamber

[Sir Tony Baldry]

I say, in all friendship to my hon. Friend, that as I sat through the debates in General Synod, it struck me that the Eurosceptics and the conservative evangelicals had quite a lot in common in their approach. Nevertheless, he makes a serious point on which the House should reflect. Since 1919, it has been the convention that although Parliament has the ultimate control over the Church of England—it is an established Church, after all, and the Book of Common Prayer is but an annexe to the Act of Uniformity—the Church of England comes forward with its Measures, and if they are passed by the Church of England they will be approved or otherwise by Parliament. I am sure my hon. Friend will understand that if the Church of England is a national Church and an established Church, it is right and proper for Parliament to make clear its views and opinions to the Church of England and for the Church of England to hear what Parliament is saying.

[Mr David Winnick (Walsall North) (Lab)]

I am not involved with the Church of England and I am a lifelong non-believer, but I want to say to the hon. Gentleman, whom I greatly admire for the stance he has taken, that it is simply impossible to understand how on earth it can be argued that if women are considered appropriate to be deacons and priests, as they have been in the last 20 years, they are not worthy to be bishops. It is simply impossible to understand that. Will the hon. Gentleman also accept that, for many of us, this opposition to women bishops bears comparison with the opposition 100 years ago to women having the right to vote and to sit in the House of Commons? It is an anti-women attitude—a feeling that women have no place in public life, in religion or in politics—that I find contemptible.

[Sir Tony Baldry]

I agree with the hon. Gentleman. In fairness, if he reads the comments made by the Archbishop of Canterbury yesterday, he will find that the archbishop said exactly the same as him—that it is intolerable to have a situation where women can be priests, deacons, archdeacons and deans, yet not be bishops. In his own way, the hon. Gentleman is saying almost exactly the same as the Archbishop of Canterbury about this intolerable situation.

Oral Answers to Questions

Debate between Tony Baldry and David Winnick

Thursday 5th July 2012 Commons Chamber

[Sir Tony Baldry]

I take the point, but let me say, in fairness, that I think the Archbishop of Canterbury and the bishops were trying hard to find a piece of territory on which they felt that everyone could stand. Many of us in the House are familiar with that concept. As the archbishop said, it is rather like one of those Christmas cracker games that involve trying to get three ball bearings into a hole: you always get two in, but one falls out. I think that a genuine attempt was made, but it obviously backfired, and we shall have to review the position.

The House of Commons well understands the concept of ping-pong. I hope that if the General Synod sends this back to the House of Bishops, the bishops will reflect on what has been said by people including my right hon. Friend the Member for Bermondsey and Old Southwark (Simon Hughes). I also hope very much that, before the year is out, the House will have an opportunity to pass legislation that will make it possible for the Church of England to have women bishops.

[Mr David Winnick (Walsall North) (Lab)]

Does the hon. Gentleman accept that in years to come, it will be as difficult for people to understand the controversy about women bishops as it is for them to understand now why 100 years ago women had to fight in every conceivable way to become Members of Parliament and to have the right to vote?

[Sir Tony Baldry]

The hon. Gentleman has made a fair point, and one on which the General Synod ought to reflect at its meeting in York over the next few days.

Oral Answers to Questions

Debate between Tony Baldry and David Winnick

Thursday 24th November 2011 Commons Chamber

[Tony Baldry]

I think that it is clear that there is overwhelming support for women bishops. The outcome of the recent vote in the dioceses will be reported formally to the General Synod in February, following which it will be asked to approve any necessary final adjustments to the drafting of the legislation. I certainly hope that during the lifetime of this Parliament it will be possible for me to bring forward a Measure to the House so that we can approve women bishops in the Church of England.

[Mr David Winnick (Walsall North) (Lab)]

8. What discussions the Church Commissioners have had on the effects of demonstrations outside St Paul’s Cathedral.

[Tony Baldry]

I understand from the Bishop of London and the chapter of St Paul’s cathedral that they are in daily contact with the City of London corporation and the City of London police, as well as with the protestors. The chapter of St Paul’s and the Church are committed to working towards peaceful solutions with the protestors and the authorities concerned.

[Mr Winnick]

Would not that be the best way, to have a continued dialogue, bearing in mind the fact that many if not all of the demonstrators and the people who have set in—I have visited them—feel very strongly indeed about the growing inequality of wealth in our country?

[Tony Baldry]

I hear what the hon. Gentleman says. Those concerns have been well reflected by the comments made by the dean and chapter of St Paul’s.

Oral Answers to Questions

Debate between Tony Baldry and David Winnick

Thursday 13th October 2011 Commons Chamber

[Tony Baldry]

I would hope that the whole House would share that view about the courage of the Archbishop of Canterbury. By his preaching and presence in Africa he will have given immense encouragement to the persecuted Church there. The Archbishop of Canterbury in Africa has made a direct challenge to tyranny and given words of hope for the oppressed. The archbishop made it clear to President Mugabe that he should use his powers as Head of State to guarantee the security of Zimbabweans who worship with the Anglican Church and put an end to illegal and unacceptable behaviour—beatings and other degradation—that has been visited upon people simply because they are Christians.

[Mr David Winnick (Walsall North) (Lab)]

On one of the very few occasions when I can agree with Conservative Members, let me say that many of us are deeply impressed by the way the Archbishop of Canterbury spoke the truth to Mugabe and urged him to stop the violence and thuggery that has unfortunately occurred over the past few years. The Archbishop of Canterbury has undoubtedly given a tremendous lead to decency.

[Tony Baldry]

This is one of the few occasions when I have agreed with the hon. Gentleman, and I hope that the whole House would do so too.