Local Government and Faith Communities

Debate between Tony Baldry and David Simpson

Tuesday 2nd July 2013 Westminster Hall

[Sir Tony Baldry (Banbury) (Con)]

I am wholeheartedly grateful to my hon. Friend the Member for South Northamptonshire (Andrea Leadsom) for introducing this debate. I endorse everything said by her and by the right hon. Member for East Ham (Stephen Timms)—I can confidently reassure him that this Government do not treat people of faith as oddities, minorities or foreigners.

Perhaps a couple of days after I was appointed Second Church Estates Commissioner—it was on one of my first visits to Lambeth palace, so it must have been very early in the life of this Parliament and the coalition Government—one of the first visitors through the door was the Secretary of State for Communities and Local Government. Lambeth palace has big doors, and the Secretary of State was the first through them for a gathering with the Archbishop of Canterbury and other faith leaders.

At the outset, my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State made it clear to the Archbishop of Canterbury, other faith leaders and people such as myself that he and the Government wanted to work with faith communities. He reinforced the Near Neighbours programme, which has done excellent work in Leicester, Bradford, parts of Birmingham and east London, in and near the constituency of the right hon. Member for East Ham. Throughout, the Secretary of State made it clear that he took a practical and pragmatic approach to central and local government working with faith groups.

I appreciate that others wish to speak in this debate, so I shall be brief. However, as this is a debate about Christian action, I hope that hon. Members will excuse me if I make a slightly theological point. There is no way for the state, either centrally or locally, to deliver every human service. The state cannot deliver compassion, comfort the bereaved or relieve people of their loneliness. As it happens, I have hanging in my sitting room at home one of those illuminated Biblical addresses, although it is rather more an instruction than an address, which is from chapter 25 of St Matthew. Jesus is asked:

“Lord, when did we see you hungry and feed you, or thirsty and give you drink? When did we see you a stranger and make you welcome, naked and clothe you, sick or in prison and go to seek you?”

Jesus does not reply to the Roman authorities or the Jewish state; he replies entirely to us as individuals:

“Then shall he answer them, saying, ‘Truly I say to you, in so much as you did it not to one of the least of these, you did it not to me.’ And these shall go away into everlasting punishment, and the righteous into life eternal.”

The New Living Translation puts it another way:

“And he will answer, ‘I tell you the truth, when you refused to help the least of these my brothers and sisters, you were refusing to help me.’”

When Jesus was asked, “How do you help those who are thirsty, hungry or in prison?” he said not, “This is the responsibility of the state,” but, “This is the responsibility of you as Christians and as human individuals.” That is a fundamental acknowledgment that we must get our minds around. We, as Christians or as human beings, cannot simply shift all responsibilities on to the state, because the state does not have the capacity to give that human compassion and do all the other things. The state can help to support hospices for the dying, but it is the hundreds of volunteers who help to run hospices who make all the difference.

[David Simpson (Upper Bann) (DUP)]

I agree with the hon. Gentleman’s sentiments. A number of weeks ago, I took part with street pastors in some of their outreach work. I witnessed the compassion that he mentioned from young people of the Christian faith who were doing fantastic work among drug addicts and alcoholics. Such work has transformed lives, and our young people have a lot to contribute to that.

[Sir Tony Baldry]

I am grateful for that intervention.

My hon. Friend the Member for Gainsborough (Sir Edward Leigh) made some observations on behalf of the Roman Catholic Church, so I hope that hon. Members will excuse me if I make a couple of observations on behalf of the Church of England. The Church of England is, of course, a national church. The whole point of the Church of England is that it divides the whole of England into parishes, and every parish has a priest who is responsible for that parish. Archbishop Temple once observed that the Church of England was one of very few organisations that existed for the benefit of people other than its own members. The Church has a mission to the whole community. It must be, and is, a national Church.

Recent research by the Church Urban Fund found that thousands of parish churches throughout the country play an active role in their local communities by running lunch clubs for the elderly and after-school clubs for children in deprived areas, and helping to run food banks, as the right hon. Member for East Ham observed. In fact, some 6,500 parishes in England run organised activities to address at least one social need in the community.

What was interesting about the Church Urban Fund’s research findings was that parishes based on council estates and in inner cities were the most likely to be active in the community. Some 80% of Church of England parishes on council estates run activities to address at least one social need. In my experience, they do so with other faith groups. The street pastors, food banks and other initiatives that I have seen involve faith groups working together, and I do not think that there is any problem with that.

Every day, throughout the country, thousands of faith-based volunteers quietly go about helping the elderly, isolated people and toddler groups, or doing more difficult work in drug rehabilitation programmes. In Oxfordshire, we have a programme that meets people who have been released from prison—literally at the prison gate—to give them support as they return to the community. In hundreds of different ways, such work is done patiently and tirelessly every day.

During my time as a Second Church Estates Commissioner who takes a particular interest in this issue, I have not come across any instances of faith groups or churches saying to me that they feel frustrated or thwarted because local government has not understood them. The idea of a covenant, as proposed by the right hon. Member for East Ham, is extremely interesting and probably well worth pursuing, but I would hope—and I see this throughout the country—for partnerships between faith groups, and local government and other organisations. When I recently went to Wellingborough and Kettering to see street pastors at work, what impressed me was that at the beginning of the evening, senior police officers came in to brief them about what was happening in the community that night, how things were in the town and what they expected. Those street pastors had the full support and respect of the local police and the local authority, which was much appreciated. Whether helping to tackle isolation, family breakdown, debt or homelessness, or supporting people on low incomes, or with mental health or drug and alcohol abuse problems, people of faith are present. I would hope that central and local government will continue to work out how to maximise that synergy.

Occasionally, reality breaks out in the Palace of Westminster, and one reality that has broken out in the past couple of weeks is that the welfare budget is not going to grow exponentially. Members on both sides of the House, including the shadow Chancellor, have acknowledged that, so we will all have to be smarter, cleverer and wiser about how we work within the parameters of the existing welfare budget, which is huge. The House of Commons Library tells me that the total spent on welfare is forecast to be £204.1 billion this financial year. In 2016-17, that will rise to £218.2 billion in cash terms, or £206.9 billion at this year’s prices, so we will go from £204 billion to approximately £207 billion in three years’ time, and we will all have to work within that budget. Given the opportunity, faith groups have the capacity and ability to do much with central and local government.

Disability Living Allowance

Debate between Tony Baldry and David Simpson

Wednesday 9th March 2011 Westminster Hall

[Tony Baldry]

My hon. Friend makes an incredibly good point. I—and I suspect many hon. Members—would like and welcome a route map from the DWP. I sometimes feel that policy relating to that Department is a bit of a secret garden. I am always a bit reticent about entering into the garden, because I usually use the wrong words—the mobility component of disability living allowance for those in residential care, is in itself quite a mouthful.

What is it—I entirely agree with my hon. Friend the Member for Loughborough (Nicky Morgan)—that we, or those in residential care settings, can expect to be provided? After all, let us remember that what we have here are a very wide range of human beings who are individuals and constituents. Stephen Argyll, the person to whom I just referred, is intellectually very bright, but almost blind and has difficulty getting around. Some are in Agnes Court because they have learning difficulties, and some are there because they are suffering distressingly from degenerative illnesses, such as Parkinson’s disease. There is not just one group of people, but a large number of individual human beings who have different histories. For example, many are married and still wish to maintain their relationship with their husbands or wives, go shopping, and so on. I also understand, however, that Ministers are concerned that this can be an expensive provision, if what is being provided are individual, tailored mobility vehicles that are not being used much each week by individual people. If there is an overlap with other funding that is supposed to go to care homes from the local authority, that is also a concern.

[David Simpson]

Will the hon. Gentleman give way?

[Tony Baldry]

I am conscious that lots of other hon. Members, including, I am sure, many from Northern Ireland, wish to take part in the debate.

I suspect that all of us want to engage constructively with constituents who have concerns about this matter, but we want to do so positively and be conscious of the legitimate concerns of Ministers that the system is not working. The Minister has stated:

“We will not remove the mobility of disabled people but we will remove the overlaps and gaps inherent in the current system.”

I want to understand where the Minister sees the overlaps. Where does she see the gaps? Please can we have a lay person’s guide that we, as colleagues, can take when we talk to constituents in this situation, so that they understand the issues and that we understand the examination question that we have been set. I know that there is an exam, but I am not confident yet that I fully understand the examination question.

I appreciate that the decision has been delayed until 2013, but Ministers will at some point have to be clear, and send a clear signal about post-2013, for the following reason. The Minister will have met, when she was at Agnes Court, large numbers of people who have entered into leases and other contractual arrangements for mobility vehicles. There need to be transitional arrangements so that if there is a change in the regime and the rules in 2013, people do not suddenly find themselves with a period of time to pay a contract without the wherewithal to do so. If Ministers are coming to the view that at some point they will change the rules, it would probably be helpful to give a clear signal of their intentions so that people have a clear understanding of that and make dispositions accordingly.