The UK’s Justice and Home Affairs Opt-outs

Tony Baldry Excerpts

Thursday 10th July 2014 Commons Chamber

[Mrs May]

My hon. Friend causes me to progress to another part of my speech. I want to make the situation absolutely clear. As he knows, we have had a number of debates on this matter in the House, and the Justice Secretary and I have made a number of appearances before various Select Committees, including the European Scrutiny Committee. We had hoped and intended that by this stage we would have reached agreement on the full package that we are negotiating with the European Commission and other member states. That has not happened. The package was discussed at the General Affairs Council towards the end of June, but some reservations have still been placed on it, so we do not yet have the final agreement. However, we believed that we had sufficient knowledge to make it right and proper to have this debate in the House today.

[Sir Tony Baldry (Banbury) (Con)]

Will my right hon. Friend give way?

[Mrs May]

Sorry, I am still responding to my hon. Friend the Member for Gainsborough (Sir Edward Leigh). I am trying to answer his question as carefully and clearly as possible.

The House will have the opportunity to vote on this matter in due course, but having said that we would bring the matter back to the House before the summer recess, I thought it right and proper to give the House the opportunity to have this debate.

--- Later in debate ---

[Sir Tony Baldry]

I am very grateful to the Home Secretary. I apologise if I interrupted her.

I am sure that the Home Secretary will make it clear to the House that if we do not have the European arrest warrant, we will need to have a large number of individual treaties with individual countries. My hon. Friend the Member for Gainsborough (Sir Edward Leigh) and I are both old enough to have practised at the Bar when that was the situation. I remember that, whether one was prosecuting or defending, it could take ages and ages, going to Horseferry Road magistrates court time after time, with adjournment after adjournment, year after year, before someone was extradited.

[Mrs May]

My right hon. Friend makes an extremely valid point. It is the point that I had hoped to illustrate with the case that I set out at the beginning of my speech, which is that the European arrest warrant has given us distinct advantages in our ability to have criminals extradited back to the United Kingdom and, indeed, to extradite people elsewhere when they have committed crimes that warrant that extradition.

--- Later in debate ---

[Mr Hanson]

The hon. Gentleman is talking about a small level of crimes, but they include crimes that could destroy the centre of London and crimes that involve the murder or death of individuals, along with child trafficking, prostitution and drug abuse. They might be a small number in the overall gamut of crimes in the United Kingdom, but if they require international co-operation to bring people back to justice, prevent those crimes in the first place and ensure that we collect individuals and bring them back here, that is something worth considering.

[Sir Tony Baldry]

My hon. Friend the Member for North East Somerset (Jacob Rees-Mogg) is a great guy, but I do not think he has got his figures right. According to evidence submitted by the Association of Chief Police Officers to the House of Lords European Union Select Committee,

“In 2010/11 the UK received 5,382 EAW requests and made 221 EAW requests to other EU states. The UK surrendered 1,149 individuals (approximately 7% of which were UK nationals, the other 93% being fugitives to the UK).The UK had 93 people surrendered to it.”

Therefore, we actually surrendered a large number of people who were not UK nationals. Someone who is a criminal somewhere else is likely to be a criminal here. Does that not demonstrate that the European arrest warrant actually works perfectly well in getting rid of some very dangerous people from this country?

[Mr Hanson]

May I just say happy birthday to the right hon. Gentleman? I am an avid reader of The Guardian in the morning and his birthday appeared in that. His contribution supports my argument and that of his right hon. Friend the Home Secretary, so it is a valid point, well made.

--- Later in debate ---

[Sir Tony Baldry (Banbury) (Con)]

It is always a pleasure to follow a brother knight. I take this opportunity to echo the comments of the right hon. Member for Leicester East (Keith Vaz) in congratulating my hon. Friend the Member for Stone (Sir William Cash) on becoming a brother knight. The whole House should congratulate you, Madam Deputy Speaker, on having become a Dame Commander of the Most Excellent Order of the British Empire, an order of chivalry considerably more senior than that of us mere Knights Bachelor. I can think of no better way of spending my birthday than in group therapy with brother knights, my hon. Friends the Members for Stone, for Gainsborough (Sir Edward Leigh), for Aldridge-Brownhills (Sir Richard Shepherd), for Aldershot (Sir Gerald Howarth) and for Berwick-upon-Tweed (Sir Alan Beith), so it has been a good debate.

The issue before us is what is in the national interest, what is in the interests of our constituents, and what will make us safe. In that regard I thought it might be helpful to ask Thames Valley police what they thought about the European arrest warrant. I have rather a high respect for Thames Valley police. I have lived in the Thames valley pretty much all my life, and those of us who are Members of Parliament for constituencies in the Thames valley are rather proud of Thames Valley police. They directed me to evidence on the European arrest warrant that was submitted to the House of Lords in 2012 on behalf of the Association of Chief Police Officers. ACPO consulted chief constables and police authorities around the country. It was seeking to give advice to the House of Lords on which parts of the opt-out should be opted back into, and it recommended above all else that the European arrest warrant be opted back into under the same arrangements as were then in place.

[Mr Jenkin]

When did this House decide to abdicate to ACPO on matters of civil liberty or constitutional importance?

[Sir Tony Baldry]

I should have thought that, on a matter of law and order, even my hon. Friend would think it might just be sensible to take the advice of police forces up and down the country. Whatever we do in the House ought to be evidence-based, and I should have thought the evidence from police authorities and police forces around the country might be rather cogent and sensible evidence in these circumstances.

The ACPO assessment confirmed that the European arrest warrant is the most important of all the measures in the area of justice and home affairs. Most of the police forces and chief officers—I am sure that if my hon. Friend, for example, were to ask the chief constable of Essex and the Essex police force, they would make this point to him as well—believe that opting out of the European arrest warrant and relying on alternative arrangements would result in fewer extraditions, longer delays, higher costs, more offenders evading justice, and increased risks to public safety. They went on to say that the European arrest warrant

“has been in operation for eight years and has now become a mainstream tool. . . In 2010/11 the UK received 5,382 EAW requests and made 221 EAW requests to other EU states. The UK surrendered 1,149 individuals (approximately 7% of which were UK nationals, the other 93% being fugitives to the UK).The UK had 93 people surrendered to it.”

ACPO observed:

“These trends in extradition reflect the increasing international patterns of crime and offending. Open borders across Europe, free movement of EU citizens, low cost air travel, cheap telecommunications, the internet and the expansion of criminal networks across national boundaries are all contributory factors to the growth in extradition requests. These are irreversible changes which need to be matched by increasing flexibility on the part of European law enforcement and criminal justice agencies.”

ACPO went on to say:

“Further evidence of these changes is to be found in data concerning arrests. Recent data gathered by the MPS”—

the Metropolitan police service—

“in the first quarter of 2012 showed that of 61,939 people arrested in London, 8,089 were nationals from EU countries (13%) and 9,358 were foreign nationals from outside the EU (15%). The presence of fugitives from justice fleeing to the UK is a significant public safety issue. In 2011/12 the MPS received 50 EAWs for homicide, 20 for rape, and 90 for robbery. Each of these cases represents a person who is wanted for a serious crime who fled to the UK. There is strong evidence to show that foreign criminals who come to UK continue to offend when in the UK. There is a real risk that opting out of the EAW and relying on less effective extradition arrangements could have the effect of turning the UK into a ‘safe haven’ for Europe’s criminals.”

[Mr Dominic Raab (Esher and Walton) (Con)]

I am listening intently to what my right hon. Friend is saying. We should listen to ACPO, but I do not think that in its evidence to the House of Lords Committee ACPO made the argument that he is making in his speech. In respect of fugitives coming to the UK, there is no reason, in or out of the European arrest warrant, why we cannot just deport them. Deportation powers would provide a much quicker route even than extradition under the European arrest warrant. The wider question is whether we could get people back. That is an important point, but ACPO’s evidence focused on the latter, not the former.

[Sir Tony Baldry]

I am quoting verbatim from ACPO’s evidence given to the House of Lords. I will share it with my hon. Friend afterwards, but it is verbatim, so I am afraid that he has misdirected himself or misremembered the evidence that ACPO submitted. I am pretty old and gnarled but I can remember from when I practised at the Bar as a prosecutor that it was a nightmare to return foreign offenders overseas using bilateral agreements—it could sometimes take years with multiple applications. I recall application after application at Horseferry road magistrates court as we ploughed through various procedural points to get people deported.

I go on to quote verbatim, so there is no possibility of misunderstanding for my hon. Friend the Member for Esher and Walton (Mr Raab), from ACPO’s evidence to the House of Lords. It says that the European arrest warrant is

“an efficient system, built upon mutual recognition of criminal justice systems between member states and an obligation to comply with a properly constructed warrant. Barriers which previously existed have been removed. The nationality of the person sought can no longer be a barrier to affecting an extradition request. Under the previous arrangements many European states, such as Germany, France and Poland, did not allow their nationals to be extradited to stand trial and required them to be tried in their home state…Prior to the introduction of the EAW, extradition between European states where it did occur could, and often would, take many months in uncontested cases and many years in contested cases.”

I can testify to that, having been involved in some of those cases. The evidence continues:

“EAW data from the Commission to the European Parliament show that across the EU it takes an average of 17 days to surrender a wanted person”.

Thames Valley police gave me just two very recent examples in which the European arrest warrant had made my constituents safer. Under a recent European arrest warrant, they arrested a Polish individual wanted for armed robbery and burglary in Poland, clearly safeguarding the local community as the Thames Valley police had no intelligence that there were individuals residing in our area who had been assessed as high risk. The warrant was received, processed and executed within 24 hours, removing a potential offender and providing reassurance to the community. Another individual wanted for taking part in the murder of two youths in Milton Keynes was also arrested in Holland under a European arrest warrant. The European crime unit extradited him to the UK, where he now awaits trial, and two other suspects were sentenced in an earlier trial to more than 30 years’ imprisonment.

It is said by some, including my hon. Friend the Member for Esher and Walton, that we should rely on deportation and other extradition proceedings, but we need only contrast the speed of those cases with what happened with Abu Hamza. Fourteen years after his arrest on behalf of the USA under legal conditions largely identical to the 1957 treaty, he was finally extradited to the USA to face terrorism charges there. Do we really want to see repeated Abu Hamza-type situations in our extradition processes? These are not isolated examples of where the European arrest warrant has been of benefit. Numerous other examples could be cited.

The European arrest warrant is cost-efficient. If we relied on a 1957-type mechanism we would commit ourselves to footing the legal bill for extradition processes that went on for years and cost the public purse hundreds of thousands of pounds. The public and the judiciary are frustrated that the extradition of terrorists is often delayed for years. The return to the 1957 process could make this long, drawn-out process the norm. That might not have been such a problem 20 or 30 years ago when criminals rarely crossed borders, but nowadays that is routine.

ACPO concluded in its evidence to the House of Lords and Parliament:

“The view therefore of ACPO is simple. The EAW works very effectively and increases the safety of the UK public. It is for this reason that ACPO strongly supports the EAW.”

I hope that before we next debate and vote on this issue in the House, chief constables and police authorities will write to every right hon. and hon. Member making clear the position of local police forces and drawing Members’ attention to the benefits that the European arrest warrant has had in their own areas.

I fully appreciate that Members of this House oppose anything that has the word “Europe” in it. I genuinely love my hon. Friend the Member for Aldridge-Brownhills, but I have heard that speech now about 50 times during the 30 years for which I have been a Member of this House. The fact that one is opposed to the European Union is not sufficient to jeopardise the safety of our constituents or our national interest. The Home Secretary, by opting back into a number of these measures, particularly the European arrest warrant, is, in my view and judgment, doing something sensible, proportionate, in the national interest and, most importantly of all, in the interests of my constituents.