Business of the House

Debate between Tom Brake and Wayne David

Thursday 24th October 2013 Commons Chamber

[Tom Brake]

I am not sure whether the hon. Gentleman had an opportunity to listen to the Deputy Prime Minister on LBC, but he might have found clarification on that point. Perhaps Mrs Bone had an opportunity to listen to that interview and will be able to report back to him. The coalition Government have made it clear that we are committed to being the greenest Government ever, and we will not do that at the expense of the environment or of jobs in the emerging industries. At the same time, however, we are aware of the pressures that people face due to their energy bills. That is why we have legislated, for instance, to ensure that people are offered the lowest tariff, and it is why we have measures in place to address the winter peak in fuel costs, with £135 available to 2 million people.

[Wayne David (Caerphilly) (Lab)]

As the Deputy Leader of the House has demonstrated, creative inventiveness has its place in parliamentary debate, but there is a time and place for everything, and it can be taken too far. In light of that, will it be possible to have a debate on the errors—inadvertent, of course—the misrepresentations, inadvertent, and the all-too-frequent inaccuracies, inadvertent, of the Prime Minister in his attempts to answer PMQs?

[Tom Brake]

I am sorry to disappoint the hon. Gentleman, but there is clearly not such an opportunity beyond the Prime Minister’s weekly attendance at the Dispatch Box, when he puts across the Government’s position on matters of all natures forcefully and effectively. Of course, the Prime Minister is a more regular attendee at the House to make oral statements than his predecessor.

Transparency of Lobbying, Non-Party Campaigning and Trade Union Administration Bill

Debate between Tom Brake and Wayne David

Wednesday 9th October 2013 Commons Chamber

[The Deputy Leader of the House of Commons (Tom Brake)]

Before I tackle new clauses 2 and 3 and the amendments, I welcome the hon. Member for Caerphilly (Wayne David) to his place. I am not sure whether this is his last appearance in his current position—

[Wayne David]

Probably.

[Tom Brake]

Okay. I also welcome the hon. Member for Liverpool, West Derby (Stephen Twigg), who is making his first appearance in this capacity, as well as the hon. Member for Penistone and Stocksbridge (Angela Smith), who is staying put, I believe. This is also perhaps the first opportunity for me to welcome the Minister of State, Cabinet Office, my right hon. Friend the Member for Tunbridge Wells (Greg Clark). He might be familiar with a quote from Christopher Hitchens:

“What can be asserted without evidence can be dismissed without evidence.”

He might have found during the debate that a lot is being asserted by Opposition Members without evidence. Clearly, the Government dismiss that with evidence rather than without it.

The hon. Member for Caerphilly made an enticing offer that we should pause the Bill, but I am afraid that I shall have to decline. I can only imagine the hue and cry from Labour were we to do nothing with the Bill only for someone to spend just under £1 million in one constituency or another during the run-up to the next general election to try to unseat a candidate they did not want to support. Would the hon. Gentleman then accuse us of failing to take action?

We have also heard some examples of Opposition Members’ belief that the Bill would have stopped updated health and safety provisions in relation to mining disasters. We heard from the Chair of the Select Committee on Political and Constitutional Reform that the Labour party would not have existed had the Bill been in place. My right hon. Friend the Minister of State will become familiar with such arguments, which are completely outwith anything the Government propose in the Bill.

New clause 2 would require the Government and the Electoral Commission to undertake a post-legislative assessment of the impact of part 2 on third parties campaigning in elections to the Scottish Parliament, the Welsh Assembly and the Northern Ireland Assembly and on third parties campaigning in Scottish, Welsh and Northern Ireland constituencies for the UK parliamentary elections. That assessment would also have to consider the impact of part 2 on referendums in Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland. Part 2 would not come into force until a report of the assessment was laid before Parliament.

Only some of the part 2 provisions apply to third parties campaigning in elections to the devolved Administrations. At the time of the Bill’s introduction, the Government published an impact assessment to accompany it. The analysis has been thorough. To require the Government to undertake another analysis at a later date serves no purpose. In addition, the Electoral Commission already has a statutory function of reporting on the conduct of elections under current legislation. As part of that function, the Government would expect the commission to examine the impact of changes to rules on third-party campaigning at future elections. It would not be for the Government to duplicate the role of the independent regulator.

The main thrust of the remarks of the hon. Member for Caerphilly was about the potential risk of impact on the Scottish referendum. I want to make it clear that the Bill does not have an impact on referendums. Although the regulated period for the 2015 UK parliamentary election will overlap with the regulated period for the 2014 Scottish independence referendum, spending in the Scottish referendum is a matter for the Scottish Parliament. Such expenditure could not, in our view, reasonably be regarded as intended to promote electoral success and would therefore not be controlled under the Political Parties, Elections and Referendums Act 2000 or regulated by the Bill. We believe that expenditure incurred during the regulated period for the referendum would be treated as referendum expenditure and not controlled expenditure for the election, unless there was a clear or direct link to a campaign in the election. We do not think that the commencement of part 2 should be delayed as the hon. Gentleman said.

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[Wayne David]

Surely, the comment from the Deputy Leader of the House depends on clearly differentiating expenditure for election campaigning and referendum campaigning. We might find that sums of money are used for identical purposes at the same time. Common sense dictates that that is bound to lead to complications.

[Tom Brake]

I do not know whether the hon. Gentleman was in the House in 1999 when PPERA was being debated and when it became an Act in 2000. That Act seeks to address that sort of issue. Our position is clear. I do not think that I need to restate it a third time, but I will: the Scottish referendum is not affected in any way by what we are debating here.

I shall move on to new clause 3, which would require the Electoral Commission to identify the Bill’s impact on both its own resources and on third parties. It would require the commission to lay a full cost projection before Parliament within one month of the Bill receiving Royal Assent. As I have just explained, the Government have already published an impact assessment to accompany the Bill. That assessment considers the impact on both the Electoral Commission and third parties. The assessment estimates that the lowered registration thresholds will bring 30 more third parties into the regime administered by the Political Parties, Elections and Referendums Act 2000—that is, third parties that campaign for the electoral success of a party or candidate.

The assessment also estimates that only 10% of third-party organisations will see their expenditure affected by the reduced spending limits proposed in the Bill. At the 2010 UK general election, only two organisations even passed the lower limits proposed in the Bill. There will be a relatively small administrative cost to each registered third party as a result of the new reporting provisions that the Bill introduces. The impact assessment considers that the enforcement cost to the Electoral Commission will rise by a maximum of £390,000 annually. Let me say again that this analysis is comprehensive, and I see no need to repeat it after the Bill has received Royal Assent.

The Electoral Commission states in its parliamentary briefing:

“We do not support this amendment since there are more appropriate vehicles for consideration of these issues.”

The Electoral Commission is already required, under PPERA, to submit an estimate of its income and expenditure to the Speaker’s Committee on the Electoral Commission each financial year. That estimate must indicate what the commission considers its requirements for resources for the next five-year period might be. There is therefore already provision in legislation for the commission to provide the information that the amendment seeks.

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[Tom Brake]

The hon. Gentleman asks a very specific and detailed question. The difficulty in answering it is the extent to which any local community campaign organised at any level would have an impact on Westminster elections. Rather than giving him an off-the-cuff response, I will ensure that he gets a detailed reply. On that point, I will conclude my remarks.

[Wayne David]

It is not the Opposition’s intention to press new clauses 2 and 3, on the basis of the commitment the Deputy Leader of the House has given to have further discussions, particularly in the House of Lords, which we hope will lead to substantive change. I beg to ask leave to withdraw the clause.

Clause, by leave, withdrawn.

Clause 26

Meaning of “controlled expenditure”

[Tom Brake]

I beg to move amendment 32, page 12, leave out lines 31 to 33 and insert ‘“where—

(a) the expenses fall within Part 1 of Schedule 8A, and

‘(b) the expenditure can reasonably be regarded as intended to promote or procure electoral success at any relevant election for—

(i) one or more particular registered parties,

(ii) one or more registered parties who advocate (or do not advocate) particular policies or who otherwise fall within a particular category of such parties, or

(iii) candidates who hold (or do not hold) particular opinions or who advocate (or do not advocate) particular policies or who otherwise fall within a particular category of candidates.”’.

Transparency of Lobbying, Non-Party Campaigning and Trade Union Administration Bill

Debate between Tom Brake and Wayne David

Tuesday 10th September 2013 Commons Chamber

[Tom Brake]

rose—

[Wayne David]

I will refer specifically to the NCVO position and what has happened in the past few days, but I want to make this point first. There has been a groundswell of concern over the summer. Just a few days ago, before the NCVO meeting, the Leader of the House responded to concerns by saying, “Don’t worry, you’ve all got it wrong. We are absolutely certain that we are right and you are all wrong. This won’t affect charities and voluntary organisations at all.” That was the Government’s line. On Friday, as has been said, he changed his tune and indicated to the NCVO that there would be a concession. I would like to know what precisely the concession will be. The Deputy Leader of the House wanted to intervene a moment ago. Perhaps he can say precisely what the concession will be.

[Tom Brake]

I thank the hon. Gentleman for giving way. I thought it would be useful if he had on record what Stuart Etherington from the NCVO said in relation to clause 26—and it relates to clause 26 only, not to other clauses:

“I am pleased that the Government has listened to and significantly met the concerns of charities and community groups. I understand the Government’s intention was not to make their normal work subject to this regulation. We will work closely with the Government and the Political and Constitutional Reform Committee in order to deliver this intention.”

I am a little afraid that that might mean that the hon. Gentleman has to rewrite his speech. There is a clear undertaking from the Government to work with the NCVO to ensure that it, and indeed my hon. Friend the Member for Caithness, Sutherland and Easter Ross (John Thurso), are happy about clause 26.

[Wayne David]

I read the press release issued on Friday and I had discussions with the NCVO only this morning. It has issued a brief that updates its position, saying clearly—as I do—that it welcomes this movement, but that the Government have a heck of a long way to go. There is nothing to stop the Government today putting forward, on the Floor of the House, a written commitment to give us an outline of what they want to do. All we have had is a nod and a wink and a promise.

[Wayne David]

My hon. Friend puts his finger on an important point that highlights the lack of clarity and the confusion at the heart of the Bill. We have heard the fine words of the Deputy Leader of the House on what the Government intend to do, but will he give us this commitment: will he put in writing, by means of a draft amendment that he can amend if necessary, what he has said to the Committee today? Will he provide that substantive material? Please reply.

[Tom Brake]

I thank the hon. Gentleman for that offer. I am sure he would prefer that the Government’s legal counsel ensured that they work to build up the amendment—on which we have already given an undertaking to work with my hon. Friend the Member for Caithness, Sutherland and Easter Ross and, as Stuart Etherington has indicated, the NCVO—to ensure that, on Report, the fundamental concern of charities over the confusion that they say the Government have introduced into the definition of election materials and election purposes will be addressed.

[Wayne David]

I respectfully remind the Minister that the Bill was literally drafted on the back of an envelope in a couple of days. All we are asking is that the Government give us a draft amendment, subject to all the caveats that they want to put in about legal advice and so on, so that we have, in writing, the Government’s commitment. Otherwise many people will think that these are simply hollow words from the Government.

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[Wayne David]

It is unusual for the Opposition spokesman to make a second speech in such a debate, but it is important to hone in on a few points that have been made on both sides of the Committee. There is a high degree of consensus, and very few, if any, hon. Members have made partisan contributions. All recognise the value of civil society and of it engaging fully in our democratic process.

The right hon. Member for Haltemprice and Howden (Mr Davis) spoke of how the nature of society is changing, and of how civil society is becoming more important in our democracy. We should recognise that and enhance such involvement. We have also heard how public policy is extremely important, particularly with regard to the devolved institutions, for campaigning organisations and the voluntary sector. Hon. Members have heard how charities do not simply raise money, but have a great deal of input into the development of policy in their respective areas, so public policy formation and charity work come together.

In my view, all those points have produced a unanimous view in the Committee. It is important that the Minister acknowledges the relatively uniformity of view in the Committee, and recognises the need for more discussion among hon. Members, and perhaps more importantly among those outside the Chamber who will be directly affected, including the Electoral Commission, charities and campaigning organisations.

Hon. Members have honed in on clause 26. I heard what the Deputy Leader of the House said at the beginning of the debate about amending the clause and schedule 3, so I ask him, in the next few minutes, to give the Committee a commitment that he will have a dialogue with the Opposition, the Electoral Commission and all the organisations that are concerned about the implementation of the measures.

This positive debate has shown that the Committee is not against change. All hon. Members recognise that change must take place, but we also recognise that, in a democracy, if change is to enhance our democratic process, it must take place on the basis of consensus and agreement.

[Tom Brake]

I apologise for the fact that I will take some time to respond. We have been debating the matter for two or two and half hours, and it is appropriate for me to respond to many of the points that have been made. If I am unable to respond in the debate to the points hon. Members have made, or if I do not respond, they can take them up with me later and I will respond in writing.

The debate on Second Reading raised a number of important issues relating to clause 26, and I am grateful to my hon. Friend the Member for Caithness, Sutherland and Easter Ross (John Thurso) and the hon. Members for Caerphilly (Wayne David), for Nottingham North (Mr Allen), for Perth and North Perthshire (Pete Wishart) and for Banff and Buchan (Dr Whiteford) for the amendments they have tabled.

The hon. Member for Caerphilly criticised the Government by saying that the Bill was rushed, but then invited me to draft the amendment we had been discussing here and now, thereby short-circuiting any discussion with interested parties on that particular issue. In response to the specific request he and the hon. Member for Hayes and Harlington (John McDonnell) made on when an amendment will be tabled and whether there will be a process for engaging with the Opposition, the Electoral Commission and the National Council for Voluntary Organisations, I can provide them with reassurance that that process will happen. I am happy to meet the hon. Member for Caerphilly to discuss proposed Government amendments. Discussions will take place with the Electoral Commission and the NCVO prior to them being finalised. Although the House will be in conference recess, the Government hope to table amendments at least a week before to give Members time to consider them.

[Wayne David]

I thank the right hon. Gentleman for his positive comment. If he is giving a commitment to effectively redrafting clause 26, he will have no problem if the Committee votes against it tonight.

[Tom Brake]

It will be up to the hon. Gentleman to make his decision. I have given an undertaking, and am about to give a more detailed undertaking, of what we intend to do with clause 26. It will be up to him to decide whether he feels that that is appropriate.

The main purpose of clause 26 is to align the activities that count as controlled expenditure for political parties and third parties. Many Members have referred to the Electoral Commission’s objections to aspects of the Bill. As far as I am aware, no one has referred to what it had to say on the alignment of the definition of controlled expenditure for political parties and third parties, and I would like to put that on the record. Recommendation 29 of its June 2013 report states:

“The rules on PPERA non-party campaigning that is intended to influence voters should be changed so that they more closely reflect the scope of rules for political parties by covering events, media work and polling, as well as election material.”

That is what the Electoral Commission has to say about the importance of ensuring that the two measures mesh carefully.

[Wayne David]

rose—

[Mr Allen]

rose—

[Tom Brake]

I will give way to the Opposition Front Bench spokesman and then the Chair of the Select Committee.

[Wayne David]

What the right hon. Gentleman says is of course correct. Why, if he believes there should be greater alignment between the two areas of expenditure, does he want to introduce a staff cost to the voluntary sector that does not apply to political parties? He cannot have it both ways.

[Tom Brake]

I thank the hon. Gentleman for that intervention, because it gives me the opportunity to underline that under the current definition of controlled expenditure, staff costs for non-party organisations have to be accounted for. This is not a departure; we are extending the requirement on them to account for staff costs to the new areas of controlled expenditure that we think should be covered, such as research.

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[Wayne David]

rose—

[Tom Brake]

I will give way to the Opposition spokesman, but I will not take any more interventions after that.

[Wayne David]

I thought that the Minister was in listening mode, but there we are. May I ask him one simple question? Does he intend to revise schedule 3?

[Tom Brake]

I think that we shall have to wait and see—[Interruption.] As I have said to the hon. Gentleman, what we are seeking to do is to address the concerns expressed by charities about the lack of clarity in the definitions. We have indicated that we will revert to terms very similar to those used in the original legislation. I am sure that if he genuinely wants to address the concerns that charities have expressed, he will welcome that. As I said, we will return to the issue on Report.

In new clause 9, the hon. Member for Caerphilly calls on the Government to undertake a post-legislative assessment. New clause 10 also calls for such an assessment. We conducted an impact assessment, which we consider to be adequate, but the Chairman of the Select Committee, the hon. Member for Nottingham North, may well wish to undertake a post-legislative assessment. The Leader of the House and I are both keen for post-legislative scrutiny to take place, and, in fact, would encourage Select Committees to carry out more of it than they do at present.

The hon. Member for Caerphilly referred to the amendment which would alter schedule 3 by appearing to narrow slightly the types of manifesto or documents that are included, omitting those which set out a party’s policies, but not the third party’s view of them. It would also remove the detail of the type of expenses that should be included in calculation of the amount of controlled expenditure associated with any manifesto or other document setting out the third party’s view on the policies of a party or candidate.

At present, recognised third parties incur controlled expenditure in connection with the production or publication of election material which is made available to the public. That will normally cover activities such as advertising, unsolicited material addressed to electors, and any manifesto or document setting out the policies, or the recognised third party’s view on the policies, of one or more parties or candidates.

While schedule 3 expands the range of activities that may constitute controlled expenditure, manifestos or policy documents—being election material—are already covered by existing law, and will remain so. They are simply described here in a different way. I therefore urge that the amendment is not pressed to a vote.

References have been made to press conferences and rallies. I know that the TUC has expressed fears that it will not be allowed to hold its rally. Our view is that the TUC would not promote parties or political candidates at the rally—especially given what is happening at the TUC conference today, where it could almost be argued that the TUC is supporting anything but the Labour party. [Interruption.]

[Tom Brake]

I suspect that the Committee is becoming restless, Sir Edward, and that I need to move on very, very promptly. Members will be pleased to learn that I have reached the penultimate page of my notes.

I have explained to the hon. Member for Caerphilly that staff costs are covered by the controlled expenditure rules that apply now to non-party organisations. Therefore, by extending the definition of controlled expenditure, we are requiring them to account for staff costs in the areas that are now also covered by controlled expenditure.

[Wayne David]

rose—

[Tom Brake]

I am not going to give way. I have made that point clear. I do not think the hon. Gentleman understood it, but I hope he does now.

The hon. Gentleman asked why staff costs are accounted for for non-party organisations but not for political parties. The role of political parties is entirely to campaign politically and therefore all the staff costs of any political party would have to be accounted for as part of controlled expenditure. I do not think he is advocating that.

I have come to the end of my notes. Having heard the firm undertakings the Government have given to engage with the NCVO, the Electoral Commission, the Opposition and a number of organisations that are going to respond to the amendment when it has been published in advance of Parliament returning, I hope my hon. Friend the Member for Caithness, Sutherland and Easter Ross will think that we have done enough for him to withdraw his amendment.

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[Tom Brake]

We shall wait and see. The Government have assessed it and that is our assessment. I am not being forced to say it is 30. I am comfortable with saying that it is 30. That is what the Government believe to be the case.

[Wayne David]

If the objective is transparency, what is the logic in having a reduction to £5,000? Why not £4,000?