Terrorism Prevention and Investigation Measures Bill

Debate between Tom Brake and Gerry Sutcliffe

Tuesday 7th June 2011 Commons Chamber

[Tom Brake (Carshalton and Wallington) (LD)]

It is a pleasure to follow the right hon. Member for Wythenshawe and Sale East (Paul Goggins), who drew on his experience and made some sensible contributions to the debate. I diverge from his view, however, on the point that my hon. Friend the Member for Cambridge (Dr Huppert) made about communications. The point about allowing people to have access to mobile phones, the internet or fixed lines is that there are indeed some intelligent potential or actual terrorists, but equally there are some rather stupid terrorists who may use those facilities and make the sort of connections that would facilitate a prosecution. That might be one of the purposes of making communications available to them.

The Bill is welcome. It starts to tackle some of the grossest abuses of human rights that existed under the control order system, but I would like it to go further. For instance, on prosecutions, the right hon. Member for Wythenshawe and Sale East referred to the fact that there would be additional resources for covert surveillance and intelligence. My understanding is that that will be used to secure prosecutions, which is welcome. More could be done to secure prosecutions, and we may want to return to that at a later date. I am pleased that the Government are not afraid of improving Bills where and when that is necessary.

I do not agree with Liberty’s contention that the Bill is worse than the control order system that is currently in place. It is not; it is more targeted. Liberty’s argument seems to be centred on the fact that although control orders are continually on the political table because of the sunset clause that calls for an annual review and the associated parliamentary oversight, the effect of the Bill would be permanent. That is true. However, control orders have been debated annually and renewed year after year, whereas TPIMs are limited to a maximum of two years, following an initial period of one year.

The right hon. Member for Wythenshawe and Sale East argued that the Government should allow TPIMs to go beyond a two-year period. My understanding of one of the arguments deployed in favour of control orders is their ability to disrupt. One would expect that after a two-year period of a lack of communication or of controlled communication, the disruptive nature of control orders would have had an impact and broken down those networks. The right hon. Gentleman may have been arguing for TPIMs to be applied indefinitely to ensure that that disruption was permanent and took place over a longer time scale. My view is that disruption would have taken place within the first two years and the links would have been broken. To suggest that TPIMs should be extended beyond two years presents a threat from the civil liberties perspective.

[Mr Gerry Sutcliffe (Bradford South) (Lab)]

There is a case of somebody being subject to a control order that has been in effect for more than two years. If the advice of the Security Service is that it should continue, what would the hon. Gentleman say?

[Tom Brake]

I thank the hon. Gentleman for his intervention. If there has been no evidence of any activity whatever during that period—TPIMs would allow for the measure to be imposed again if there was some sign of activity—and if there has been no activity, with the additional surveillance that will be provided, one must question the Security Service’s position. It might want to keep the person under a control order indefinitely, but if there is no evidence of activity surely the hon. Gentleman would agree that a line must be drawn. Given that the person had not undertaken any terrorist activities, the disruptive effect would have been felt and no further application of a control order would be appropriate.

As I said, control orders have been debated annually, and they have been renewed annually.

Immigration

Debate between Tom Brake and Gerry Sutcliffe

Thursday 18th November 2010 Commons Chamber

[Tom Brake]

I agree with some of what my hon. Friend says. I went to an international school in France from the age of eight to 18. All lessons apart from English language, history and literature were conducted in French. Other languages were used in other sections of the school for children from other countries around the world. The school ensured that all students were fully committed to French society and to learning about French history and culture, but at the same time, students could retain a stake in their countries of origin and study their history, language and literature. If the hon. Gentleman means that immigrants should integrate and absorb the basic principles of being British, I agree with him, but I hope that he can see the real value in those immigrants retaining their own culture and language, because that allows them to make a contribution to British society. I hope we agree on those points.

We need an immigration policy that is beneficial to the UK, and various organisations have raised questions about our policy. I am sure that the Minister has been on the receiving end of the briefing from Universities UK and the Association of Medical Research Charities, and that he is ready to respond positively to their concerns. The briefing concentrates quite heavily on controls that could stop researchers who could make a substantial contribution to medicine if they come to the UK under tier 1. They are worried about past salary being one of the principal considerations. Often, academics and researchers have not previously received salaries commensurate with those in the finance sector or law and so on. Therefore, some regard must be given to ensuring that people who will make a contribution will not be disallowed from coming in. We know that people make such contributions, and some have won Nobel prizes following their contributions to research. In addition, research developments very often lead to economic or business applications.

Universities UK and the Association of Medical Charities are also concerned about tier 2. Academics and researchers are not listed as shortage occupations, but they are often in specialised, niche markets, in which very few people have the same skills either in the UK or beyond.

The Minister will have seen the briefing from the British Chambers of Commerce, which is similarly concerned about tier 1. A point was made earlier about people who come to the UK under tier 1 and subsequently ended up working as pizza delivery drivers. Clearly, if that happens, something has gone dramatically wrong with the system. We need to ensure that we allow entrepreneurs, who we know will make a substantial contribution to the economy, to come to the UK, but at the same time we want to ensure that people with skills and flair come here to do the work that we expect them to do under tier 1. Ensuring that the system operates in that way is one of the challenges that the Government face.

In conclusion, the coalition agrees on the need to tackle the issues before us. Clearly, on some issues, businesses have lobbied all Members heavily with their concerns, and I know that the Government have listened carefully and will address them in their response.

[Mr Gerry Sutcliffe (Bradford South) (Lab)]

In this spirit of consensus and the coalition agreement on what to do in the future and now, what is the coalition’s position on an amnesty for people already here who have no prospect of being sent back?

[Tom Brake]

When an intervention starts, “In the spirit of consensus”, I always start to panic. I am not sure whether the hon. Gentleman was referring to a previous amnesty policy advocated during the general election campaign, but he will know that that was not one of the policies that moved into the coalition programme. I and my colleagues are comfortable with what the coalition Government are doing. All we want, and all Conservative Members are seeking to do, is to improve an outstanding policy proposal from the Government.

Clearly, we need to deal with problems in the immigration system and ensure that integration is promoted, but the coalition will not turn that message into one whereby we present immigration as always being a problem, or turn to measures that could do more harm than good to the UK economy.

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[Mr Sutcliffe]

I will, and I am grateful to the hon. Gentleman for acknowledging that there has been progress even though there is some way to go.

That brings me to the points that my hon. Friend the Member for Lewisham East (Heidi Alexander) made about the sensitive nature of these matters and how we should deal with people. The Government have come forward with cuts in the spending review of 20% for the Home Office, and the UK Border Agency also faces cuts of 20%. How does the Minister feel about those cuts when it comes to dealing with existing asylum and other legacy cases in the Home Office? What does he think will happen as a result of the 20% reduction? Will it help with enforcement and the ability to deal with illegal immigration?

My hon. Friend the Member for Lewisham East talked about immigration advisers and the problems that some of her constituents have faced. A number of hon. Members agree that there are problems with the accreditation and registration of advisers. Some people are being exploited way beyond their means and we have to put that right.

I take the point made by the hon. Member for Carshalton and Wallington (Tom Brake) about the coalition agreement, but there are many outstanding issues that the Government have to face. If we are to have a fair immigration policy to which our constituents will respond, we need to discuss all the issues. Of course, the press will publicise the immigration cap, but other issues need to be addressed, and if we do not get them right and have a positive discussion, all the good that comes from this debate will be lost because people will lose confidence in what we are trying to achieve.

[Tom Brake]

The hon. Gentleman has mentioned asylum, although the debate is about immigration. Will he join me in congratulating the Government on what they are doing to get rid of child detention in asylum cases in which families are to be deported?

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[Mr Sutcliffe]

That is a laudable aspiration but it has not happened yet.

[Tom Brake]

The figure is zero at present.

[Mr Sutcliffe]

If that is the case, I am happy to acknowledge the work that has been done.

I have been in the House for 16 years, including three years in opposition, so I know that it is easy for the Opposition to ask why this or that has not been done and that things are not so easy when one becomes a Minister—one has to consider the expectations of a wider range of people. I hope, then, that the Minister will take my next comment as a positive criticism. A number of organisations and commentators have commented on the immigration cap. The Financial Times has said that the Prime Minister’s pledge to bring immigration down to 1990s levels will hit outputs by as much as 1% and cost the Exchequer £9 billion a year in forgone tax revenues by the end of the Parliament. What is the Minister’s view on that? Is there confusion in the Cabinet about the immigration cap? We keep hearing about different Ministers saying different things. It is important to get these things right to regain people’s confidence.

The previous Government made much progress with e-borders and the introduction of UKBA and the points-based system. I accept that some issues need to be put right, but there was a genuine intent to move forward. As my right hon. Friend the Member for Birkenhead has said, we have to act constructively. The job of the Opposition is to hold the Government to account. We will be considering how to recalibrate some of the ideas and issues that we think important concerning the next steps, but we want to work with the Government on getting this issue right and preventing extremists on either side from damaging the good that migrant workers have done for our country.

EU immigration is a major concern, and although the Minister will disagree with the previous Government about how the problem came about, he will not want to suggest that the immigration cap affects EU workers. We should get the issue out in the open, stop pandering to national newspapers and ensure that the education, housing and schools issues that we face—all the impacts that migrant workers can have on our communities—are dealt with properly.

The Opposition will be supportive where we can be, critical when we need to be and will try to work with the Government to ensure that our immigration policy is fit for the current economic climate.