Yemen

Debate between Tobias Ellwood and Bob Stewart

Tuesday 24th February 2015 Westminster Hall

[Mr Ellwood]

I am grateful to my right hon. Friend for that intervention, and I pay tribute to the work he did in the region as a Minister in the Foreign Office. He makes a powerful point. The unique position Britain finds itself in, compared with other countries, and the leading role it should play has already been mentioned. Part of that role has been to communicate with the Houthis and, indeed, with the other stakeholders to make them all aware not only of the wider consequences of civil war but of the positives. Once the structures are in place and there is stability, then we can unlock these funds.

However, an indication of the instability in Yemen is that Britain had to evacuate its embassy, along with the Americans and indeed others; the EU has evacuated its base as well. Until those embassy officials are able to return to Yemen, I am afraid the process of releasing and appropriately spending these funds, which are much-needed to help those caught up in the war, will be much slower.

The regional implications of instability in Yemen are serious, as hon. Members have mentioned. The increasingly sectarian nature of the conflict between the Shi’a Houthis and the Sunni tribes in the south will play into the hands of Al-Qaeda. We must work closely with allies such as Saudi Arabia and the Gulf states to ensure that there is a co-ordinated and multinational response to the situation in Yemen.

A number of hon. Members mentioned the important role Iran can play in the situation we face. We are in dialogue with Iran and we need to ensure that it understands that it has a constructive role to play, to make sure that we do not see a further degrading of the situation in Yemen into civil war.

We also continue to work through our embassy staff, the UN special envoy—Jamal Benomar, who has been mentioned—and key allies to encourage all factions to work together to agree a political solution within the framework of the Gulf Co-operation Council initiative, including a clear timetable for constitutional reform and indeed elections. We remain concerned by the continued house arrest of Prime Minister Bahah and other members of the Cabinet, and we are actively calling for their immediate release.

No country can tackle terrorism alone, and Yemen is no exception. The scale of the challenge is huge and in the longer term continued instability in Yemen may mean an increased risk of al-Qaeda in the Arabian Peninsula launching external attacks, including here in the UK. AQAP remains a major part of the global, multimillion-pound kidnapping trade, which directly targets the UK, the EU, the US and nationals of other western countries. Through its extremist propaganda, AQAP also seeks to radicalise Muslims around the world and incite extremist violence. That was illustrated, as hon. Members have mentioned, in the horrific attack in Paris on 7 January.

Addressing the underlying instability in Yemen and the country’s political and economic problems is essential to countering the AQAP threat effectively. We have temporarily suspended counter-terrorism capacity-building activity with the Yemeni security forces, but we are exploring ways to re-engage with them in such activity, in a human rights-compliant manner. Members will appreciate that, for operational reasons, I cannot comment in detail on this activity.

We know that the majority of Yemenis want the same things people elsewhere around the world want: a say in how their country is run; an education for themselves and their children; the chance to have a good job; and the chance to live in a peaceful and prosperous state. Therefore, economic stability is as critical as political stability. Sadly, however, the economic situation in Yemen is deteriorating fast, with almost zero growth, debt at 50% of GDP, rapidly declining foreign reserves and growing fuel shortages.

[Bob Stewart (Beckenham) (Con)]

First, I apologise for not being here earlier. This is a subject dear to my heart, as my dear friends, the right hon. Member for Leicester East (Keith Vaz) and the hon. Member for Walsall South (Valerie Vaz), know. I am not sure I can spell it correctly, but all three of us remember Bikerji Cowji—the toy shop we all went to as children.

I know my hon. Friend the Minister cannot say why our counter-terrorism training has been suspended, but it is crucial that we get involved to help the Government in Yemen get a grip of counter-terrorism. It is so important, so we should go back there as fast as we can.

[Mr Ellwood]

My hon. Friend is very experienced in these matters, and he makes an important and powerful point. Yemen has been an enormous incubator of terrorist groups; sadly, the potential for civil war in the country is also enormous. Working with our allies to ensure that we can return and work with the Yemenis themselves is therefore a priority. However, we must remember that we need a Government in Yemen to work with, and at the moment there is not one. There is a President, as such, and the President himself continues in that office. Nevertheless, there is confusion as to the direction we are going in, which is why we are calling upon the Houthis and others to recognise the UN resolution we are working towards implementing and to come back to the table, to provide the political basis from which peaceful dialogue can take place.

Without key reforms, the future Government of Yemen will struggle to manage not only terrorism but the country’s finances in the face of low oil prices and a burgeoning salary bill—issues we discussed earlier. International support remains crucial if Yemen is to avoid economic disaster. As has been reiterated across Westminster Hall today, we must remain engaged in what is going on in Yemen.

It is also important that Yemen avoid humanitarian disaster. I pay tribute to the work of the hon. Member for Harrow West (Mr Thomas), the Opposition spokesman, while he was at the Department for International Development; he brings a lot of expertise to this debate. With some 16 million Yemenis in need of humanitarian aid, Yemen’s humanitarian crisis is second in scale only to Syria’s. However, there is a real risk that humanitarian needs will increase in the coming weeks and months if the economy deteriorates or the conflict intensifies. The UN appeal is only 60% funded, and it is crucial that the international community maintain or even increase its support to Yemen at this time.

My hon. Friends know that we have provided £185 million in aid to Yemen during the past three years through DFID programmes. We are currently able to continue to deliver the vast majority of those programmes, particularly our humanitarian and nutrition programmes, although we are keeping in close touch with our partners as events develop.

The international response to recent events has been strong and united. The UN Security Council unanimously adopted resolution 2201, which was led by the UK and Jordan. It deplored the unilateral actions taken by the Houthis and urged them to engage in good faith in the UN-brokered political negotiations, to withdraw their forces from Government institutions and to release safely those who remain under house arrest. Regrettably, the EU, GCC and US missions have also had to suspend their operations due to the deteriorating security situation.

The future of the Yemen state is more uncertain than ever. The current political crisis has re-energised those groups in the south who long to return to the days of an independent South Yemen. The UK and the UNSC remain in support of the unity, sovereignty and independence of Yemen. There are secessionist sentiments in parts of the south, and we support calls for a new state structure that would give greater autonomy to the south of Yemen, as agreed in the National Dialogue Conference. However, the future structure of the state is ultimately a question for the Yemeni people.

Despite the huge challenges Yemen is facing today, I think there is a solution to get Yemen back on the right path. This includes, first, the immediate end to violence and intimidation, particularly in the oil-rich province of Marib, and the release of the remaining Cabinet members under house arrest. I am pleased that President Hadi is now safe and well and free from house arrest.

Secondly, there should be a swift, peaceful political transition. We urge all parties, particularly the Houthis, to implement the GCCI, the NDC outcomes and the peace and national partnership agreement that they signed originally in 2014. All parties should engage in good faith in the UN-brokered negotiations.

Thirdly and finally, there should be a new Executive to take urgent steps to improve the economic and humanitarian situation. The political road map must now become a reality. I assure hon. Members that despite the temporary suspension of our embassy operations in the capital, Britain will continue do what it can to help Yemen achieve a better future for all.

Yemen (British Nationals)

Debate between Tobias Ellwood and Bob Stewart

Monday 8th December 2014 Commons Chamber

[Bob Stewart (Beckenham) (Con)]

Like the Chair of the Home Affairs Committee, I too lived in Yemen as a young man. It is a beautiful country but it is extremely dangerous—it was dangerous when I was there, and it remains so. I stress to the House that any decision to go for a hostage release is taken because those who make that decision have no choice. Going for a hostage release is not something that people want to do—one always wants to negotiate. In this case, however, I am sure that those who made that brave decision did so and went for it because they had no choice, as I assume the Minister will agree.

[Mr Ellwood]

The House is aware of my hon. Friend’s military experience. He was perhaps closer to some of these matters when he served, so he is aware of the detail that goes into such operations when they are planned. It is very difficult for any leader, whether in Britain or the United States, to decide to send in troops. The decision was made and it was believed that the evidence showed that a life was in danger. That is why the decision was taken.

Defence and Cyber-security

Debate between Tobias Ellwood and Bob Stewart

Tuesday 4th March 2014 Commons Chamber

[Mr Tobias Ellwood (Bournemouth East) (Con)]

In a hands-free, wireless, bluetooth enabled world, how would any of us cope without access to our mobile phone or computer data for any duration of time? Our lives and livelihoods depend on those assets, and they would change fundamentally if they did not work. The recent flooding in Dorset affected electricity and caused some households to reach for the candles. What a new experience that was for a generation of people who perhaps take our world a little bit for granted. They believe that all these things that we enjoy are there and will not be challenged.

I welcome this debate, and I commend the Defence Committee and its Chair for their report. My concern is that we are debating something that is changing almost daily and yet the report was printed on 26 March 2012. In answer to my interventions at the start of the debate, the Minister made it clear that changes have been introduced, but even they will be out of date given the pace of change in this area.

As we move into an ever more digital and virtual world, we are increasingly exposed to attacks not just on personal data and intellectual property but on state operations, from air traffic control systems to electricity grids. Cyber-attacks are simpler and cheaper than a dirty bomb. We no longer see robbers running in to rob a bank; it is all done electronically. This is the world that we now need to recognise.

Two years ago, I attended a course at Harvard university on national and international security. A cyber-security expert borrowed a laptop. He then purchased and downloaded $16 of software, and managed to tap into Boston’s traffic light systems. Had he taken it one step further, he would have been traced and got into trouble. None the less, he showed how easy and quick it would have been, with just $16 of software, to cause huge disruption.

Let me place this issue in perspective. In the development of warfare, there are occasionally seismic leaps in capability as new systems are introduced, and they force all of us to adapt. Going back in history, the longbow changed the outcome of the battle of Agincourt. The introduction of the cannonball changed the way in which ships attacked one another, preventing the need to go on board. The introduction of the submarine, the tank, the plane and the aircraft carrier all changed the conduct of war. As has been said again and again in this Chamber, cyber-technology will provide a new dimension, which we all need to understand.

I am a little saddened that the Chamber is so empty. I hope that it is not because I am on my feet.

[Bob Stewart]

I think it is actually.

[Mr Ellwood]

Thank you! The fact is it is the usual suspects who are here today, by which I mean those who are interested in defence matters. However, as my right hon. Friend the Member for North East Hampshire (Mr Arbuthnot) said, this issue does not affect just defence. It covers the business arena, the Home Office and the Ministry of Defence, yet we are not familiarising ourselves with the structures and processes so that we are at the front end of this capability. The speed of attack, if it happens, will be phenomenal. We have not yet seen anything on a scale that would fundamentally affect our lives, but there will be no build-up to such an attack. There will be no arms, tanks or ships mustering on the border; our lives will suddenly change when our computer systems no longer work.

The UK’s military equipment is increasingly vulnerable because of the complexity of its IT. What would happen if we lost the global positioning system? How would anything operate and could we cope? When I was at Sandhurst, we were taught how to use a compass. I am not sure whether that happens any more, but if the systems go down, that is what will be required.

Today’s statement on Ukraine reminds us of our involvement in the Crimean war and the charge of the Light Brigade. That infamous event took place because of a breakdown in communications, as by the time the orders reached Lord Cardigan, he had the wrong idea of what his mission was. Goodness knows what would happen today if we had insufficient resilience to communicate using our usual systems.

Knowing a little about Joint Forces Command, I understand the logic of placing cyber-security in that domain—it is wise that it is fed into the command—but cyber-security should have its own distinct command with its own expertise, as is advocated by some in the United States. Additionally, the relationship between the Global Operations Security Control Centre and the defence cyber operations group needs to be clarified for those of us who were unable to participate in the Committee’s inquiry. Will the Minister update us on bringing together disparate groupings and organisations within various Ministries through the GOSCC?

I support the call for the use of reservists. Banks and other financial services businesses are at the high end of ensuring that they protect their capabilities, so we need to determine how we attract people with the skill sets to do that job to work in the Ministry of Defence as well. Will the Minister tell us what is being done to encourage our NATO allies to improve joint capabilities? That subject might be suitable for discussion at the 2014 NATO summit, which will take place in this country. Given the damage and disruption that a cyber-attack might inflict, would a full-scale attack on another country be subject to article 5 of the North Atlantic treaty? Have rules of engagement been determined for offensive and defence cyber-operations?

I welcome this debate and I agree with my hon. Friend the Member for North Wiltshire (Mr Gray) that we should have defence debates more regularly. The House needs to understand this emerging threat that faces us all, as it is only a matter of time before a major strike takes place. I welcome the huge progress that the Government are making, but there is clearly much more to do.

Defence Reform Bill

Debate between Tobias Ellwood and Bob Stewart

Tuesday 16th July 2013 Commons Chamber

[Mr Tobias Ellwood (Bournemouth East) (Con)]

It is a pleasure to be the tail-end Charlie in this important Second Reading debate. I begin, as others have done, by declaring an interest as a member of the reserve forces and the military stabilisation and support group.

While listening to this very interesting and informative debate, I had flashbacks to my time serving as a regular officer and some of the procurement problems our troops had with equipment, including the ever-promised better radio. The Bowman radio is now in use, but back in my day it was just a vision. We had the old Clansman set and must have been one of the few armies across the world still using open voice procedure that was not even encrypted. The SA80 was issued to us, only to be recalled because of problems with the catches. It was then mended and given back to us at double the cost of the original contract.

I am grateful for the opportunity to speak in this debate and to place on record my gratitude to the Government Front Benchers for the work they have done not just in this area but right across defence. They deserve to be commended, particularly on procurement, as does my hon. Friend the Member for Mid Worcestershire (Peter Luff), who worked very hard when he had that portfolio.

The Bill is a reflection of how seriously this Government take defence matters and is another significant milestone in Ministry of Defence reforms since 2010. We have seen improved operational decision making, thanks to the National Security Council, and the creation of the Defence Board, the primary MOD decision-making body, which under the previous Government did not include the Secretary of State. We have seen the introduction of real-time control of major equipment programmes in order to stop spiralling costs and delays, and the major projects review board is taking note of and monitoring the top 20 programmes. A focus on British exports has led to an increase in the world market share, boosting support for our small and medium-sized enterprises, and the completion of the long overdue basing review ensures that Her Majesty’s forces are now represented right across the Union. We have also developed an exit strategy from Afghanistan after inheriting a war that had no clear mission, and we have enshrined in law, through the military covenant, the nation’s lifelong duty of care to those who serve in the armed forces. Finally, as has been said time and again, the Secretary of State and his team have, after inheriting a defence budget in deficit, managed to balance the MOD’s books.

Those reforms continue with this Second Reading debate, which has focused on two main areas: the way in which equipment is procured, and the balancing of our regular and reserve forces. It is important to understand the landscape this Government inherited. I am afraid that a glance at Labour’s efforts on procurement makes worrying reading. The majority of the equipment projects ran over budget, as explained in detail by the National Audit Office major projects report of 2010. The hon. Member for Dunfermline and West Fife (Thomas Docherty) and others are right to say that many legacy issues go further back in time, but during my time in the British Army—and certainly during my time in Parliament —we always asked why the issue of procurement was not being grasped in the way it has been today.

[Bob Stewart]

I thank my hon. and gallant Friend for allowing me to intervene. I was a staff officer in the Ministry of Defence in 1984, when the world was black and white. I well remember Michael Heseltine introducing a system called “lean look and sharp sword”, which we were told would sort out procurement for ever. I totally agree with the hon. Member for Dunfermline and West Fife (Thomas Docherty), who implied that we have not got the answer to a maiden’s prayer. Whatever we get, we will still have—

[Bob Stewart]

There is no question; it is a statement. We have not got the solution and we will still have a problem.

[Mr Ellwood]

I am very grateful for that statement. My hon. Friend makes an important point. A concern that dates back even to those times is that many of those who have been in charge of procurement have not stayed in their posts for long. Indeed, the people in uniform who filled those posts would spend six to 18 months on a project and, once they were conversant with it, would be rotated out and back to a front-line posting or elsewhere, and all that knowledge would be lost. The mistakes were made because the knowledge was not passed on correctly.

I want to look at some of the big issues that have been mentioned in this debate. The Queen Elizabeth class carriers project, which started in 1998, was deliberately delayed by the last Government at a cost of more than £1 billion. The cost of the Nimrod spiralled out of control. Nine aircraft cost as much as three space shuttles. That was outrageous spending. When we came into government, we decided to stop that process, because not one of the aircraft was able to get an airworthiness certificate and get into the sky.

The Typhoon has also been mentioned many times: an example of procuring for the last war rather than looking ahead. It is a cold war fighter plane that is unable to hit anything on the ground. Not only does it have no ground attack capability—[Interruption.] If the hon. Member for Plymouth, Moor View (Alison Seabeck) wants to intervene I will happily give way; if not, I ask her please to listen to what I am saying.

Budget Resolutions and Economic Situation

Debate between Tobias Ellwood and Bob Stewart

Thursday 21st March 2013 Commons Chamber

[Mr Ellwood]

My hon. Friend makes the point I was about to come on to. We are suffering from international gloom. Along with other major economies around the world, such as France, Germany, Japan and the United States, we are faring better, despite the problems of high oil and commodity prices and the frustratingly slow resolution of the eurozone crisis. That is thanks to the Government’s strategy of monetary and fiscal responsibility, along with supply-side reform.

In layman’s terms, monetary policies reflect the price the Government pay to borrow money and the total supply of money itself. It is thanks to our low interest rates that the cost of borrowing for individuals, banks and the Government is low. That helps to keep inflation low and provides the stability that investors need for confidence in the markets. On fiscal policy—how much money goes into the pot through taxes, and what comes out to influence economic activity—this Government are smaller than the previous Government. They have cut waste and are costing the taxpayer less, which is very positive. Indeed, the public sector borrowing requirement is down by a third from its post-war peak, only three years ago, of 11.2% of GDP.

There are many incentives in the Budget to help influence economic activity. I will mention just three main measures: the introduction of the £10,000 personal allowance, which essentially is a £700 tax cut for 24 million people; the new £2,000 employment allowance; and a cut in corporation tax to just 20%, which makes us one of the most competitive economies in the G20. They are all signs that Britain is open again for business.

There is not enough time to go through the other key aspects of the Budget that were mentioned in yesterday’s debate. The Help to Buy scheme, the new mortgage guarantee scheme, the cancellation of the 3p rise in fuel duty and the introduction of tax-free child care are all very welcome. I particularly welcome the £3 billion capital spending commitment and the £1.6 billion of sector-targeted funding, some of which I hope will come to my constituency of Bournemouth East, and to Dorset, which is developing an international reputation in aerospace industries and the digital economy. Indeed, it is nicknamed the silicon beach of south England.

The 0.7% GDP target for overseas development assistance spending is an historic achievement and sends an important message to the rest of the world about our lead role in the international community. Unsurprisingly, given the waste and mismanagement under the last Government, some are sceptical about how the money is being spent, but it is clear how ODA funds can be spent. It matters not who signs the cheques; what matters is what the project does, although traditionally the Department for International Development has signed them. On the modern battlefield, however, it is no longer just about defeating the enemy, but about giving the people who have been liberated the skills to look after themselves. Clearly, war fighting does not qualify for ODA funding—that would be wrong—but peacekeeping and nation-building tasks do.

[Bob Stewart (Beckenham) (Con)]

In 1992-93, when I was sent to Bosnia in a peacekeeping role to deliver humanitarian aid, the cost of my deployment was met by the Ministry of Defence. I felt, and still feel, that the Overseas Development Administration, as DFID was then known, should have paid some of the costs of our operations in the Balkans.

[Mr Ellwood]

My hon. and gallant Friend’s thinking is the same as the Secretary of State for International Development’s and the Prime Minister’s. Those stabilisation skill sets—post-conflict and nation-building skills—should be funded by DFID but executed by the MOD, because although the budget sits with DFID, it is clear that the MOD is doing incredible work in this post-conflict world. We could have saved £24 billion in Afghanistan and £8 billion in Iraq had we moved from war-fighting to peacekeeping far quicker and avoided the delay that followed completion of the fighting. I urge the Chancellor to consider that matter carefully.

2nd Battalion the Royal Regiment of Fusiliers

Debate between Tobias Ellwood and Bob Stewart

Thursday 18th October 2012 Commons Chamber

[Bob Stewart]

That is a very good idea. The regiment can go into purdah—that is, it can go into the reserve Army for a while—and if we need it, it can come back. That has happened in the past and it can happen again, and it is an extremely good way to proceed.

[Mr Ellwood]

I thank my hon. Friend for that intervention; I am grateful. I now look forward, as we all do, to hearing what the Minister has to say about this important subject.

North Africa and the Middle East

Debate between Tobias Ellwood and Bob Stewart

Thursday 17th March 2011 Commons Chamber

[Bob Stewart (Beckenham) (Con)]

I thank the hon. Member for Bolton South East (Yasmin Qureshi) for her speech. I have to say that I am struck by the idea of there being a listening post in Kosovo and I am particularly struck by the idea that the second world war and the Falklands war were negotiated settlements. We actually had to fight to win those wars.

I am afraid that I, too, want to talk about Libya, particularly about the timing of decisions and what we should do. I feel very lucky, as we all do, to live in the United Kingdom. I have been to a few rotten places in my life and I feel very strongly as an internationalist that we should help countries and peoples who are less fortunate than ourselves. Where we can help, we should—I made that point earlier in an intervention—but we have to be pragmatic about our foreign policy. There should also be a moral dimension and we should be constructive. I am no warmonger. I have seen for myself what conflict brings. As the first British United Nations commander in Bosnia, I witnessed man’s inhumanity to man and I found it loathsome. For me, the political lesson of Bosnia was this: if you are going to do something, do it—make your decision and act. Be decisive, and be clear about your objectives. I do not think we can pussyfoot around when it comes to international crises. We should either do something effective or do nothing. Indecision is next to useless.

In such situations, the mission has to be clear from the start, but that did not happen to me in Bosnia. I had no formal mission for three months, but I said to my soldiers that we would have a mission. I told them that our mission was to save lives and I do not reckon that would be a bad mission for us in Libya—I think that all hon. Members present would agree with that. The tactics being used by Gaddafi’s thuggish forces seem remarkably similar to the tactics that I saw being used by General Mladic in Sarajevo in 1992 and 1993. He had no thought whatever for civilian casualties. I watched that happening and I felt impotent with rage because we could have done something about it but we did nothing. We all abhor what is happening in Libya on the road to Benghazi. Some hon. Members have suggested that we should not take too much from the past, but I am afraid that I am a bit of a dinosaur and I think that the lessons of Bosnia hold true.

The military situation for the rebels in Libya, which we have not touched on, is pretty dire at the moment but is not terminal yet. In the west, Gaddafi’s forces have not yet taken Misurata. In the east, approximately 5,000 of Gaddafi’s troops are besieging Ajdabiya, which is close to the strategic crossroads leading to either Tobruk or Benghazi. We know that Gaddafi’s forces rely heavily on mercenaries. Those guys carry out their business for gold, not love, and we somehow have to get to them.

[Mr Ellwood]

I hesitate to interrupt my hon. Friend, who is making a powerful speech, but does he agree that Gaddafi’s trust in his armed forces is questionable? He cannot predict that a pilot getting into an aircraft who is told to go and bomb the rebels will actually go and do that and not fly somewhere else. That is why he is having to resort to using mercenaries.

[Bob Stewart]

I absolutely agree with my hon. Friend. Gaddafi has unreliable forces, so he needs to use mercenaries, whom he pays in gold.

Gaddafi’s forces are on extended lines of communication and supply, which is a good thing because he is not going as fast as he would want to. The key point is his rate of progress. Assuming the current rate of progress of his forces, it seems that they might take another month to get to Benghazi. There might therefore be a window of opportunity for action—perhaps up to 28 days or even more, but hopefully not a shorter period. However, as more time goes by, our chances of helping drop dramatically, so we must act as soon as we can. We are in a race against time and we must move fast.

Despite speed, however, we still must act morally and within a legal framework. What do we need in place? Many hon. Members have touched on the requirement for a Security Council resolution. The trouble with the Security Council is that it often takes decisions at the speed of a striking slug. Of course, there might also be a problem with one or two of the permanent members. However, as many hon. Members have stressed, it is essential that we have such a resolution because it gives us top cover.

Secondly, we must have Libyan support. By hook or by crook, we must ensure that whatever we do has the support of those people who oppose Gaddafi. At the moment they want a no-fly zone. As Gaddafi’s forces advance—I hope they do not; I hope they are defeated—I bet those people’s wish for more extensive military action in their support will become greater. I would like to see the no-fly zone for which they are calling, but let us be clear that there cannot be a no-fly zone without the United States.

Daylight Saving Bill

Debate between Tobias Ellwood and Bob Stewart

Friday 3rd December 2010 Commons Chamber

[Mr Ellwood]

I am grateful to my hon. Friend for paying tribute to his former constituent. It is also worth mentioning Robert Pearce, MP, who was a friend of Mr Willett, and who then took this idea on. Mr Willett was a keen golfer and he was horrified that the golf courses he used closed down when it got dark. He wanted them to stay open. That was the initial thought that put the idea into his head of taking advantage, from a leisure perspective, of the evening sunlight. So we should thank Robert Pearce for first bringing this matter to the attention of the House.

I wish to bury some of the myths and some of the headlines that we see in some of the press. We are not putting anywhere into the dark; we are not getting rid of any sunshine in any form. We are transferring light from one part of the day to another—from the morning to the evening. We are saying that, on balance, it is more useful to have that light in the evening than in the morning. Some extreme cases have been mentioned, but for much of the year—nine months of the year—we sleep through this asset. When we awake the sun has been out for an hour or more. If we suppose that an average working day ends at 5.30 pm, a clock change would result in about 300 extra hours of daylight a year in London. The figure for Glasgow would be 175 hours and the one for Shetland, at the very north of the UK, would be 160 hours. That change would be life-changing and would have an impact on everybody. It is useful to have that extra daylight at the end of the evening to do whatever one wants to do.

[Bob Stewart (Beckenham) (Con)]

The crucial thing is: will we save lives by changing the hours at which daylight starts and daylight ends? We should check that and the only way we can do so is to give this a trial, 40 years on from the previous one. If we save one life by changing our clocks, it is worth it.

[Mr Ellwood]

My hon. Friend makes one of the most powerful points for this argument, and it cannot be refuted by any Member or any person in any part of the country. Lives will be saved, as they have been proven to have been saved, through the clock change. Let me further the argument on how our lives will change. Schoolchildren would also benefit if we transferred that hour of light from the morning to the afternoon. In London, they would benefit from 233 hours of available extra daylight between 4.30 pm and either sunset or bedtime taken at 8.30 pm. That is 233 hours when activity could take place, after-school events could happen and, as my hon. Friend just mentioned, people could travel far more safely than they are able to do when it is dark.

Those arguments are also why Help the Aged says that it wants this change. At the moment, darkness acts as a guillotine on when the elderly are out; as soon as it gets dark, they lock the doors and close up shop. They are denied the opportunity to spend time in the town centre doing recreational activities or working in the garden—darkness comes and that is it.