Civil Aviation Bill

Debate between Theresa Villiers and Gavin Shuker

Wednesday 25th April 2012 Commons Chamber

[Mrs Villiers]

It is a pleasure to see you in the Chair this afternoon, Mr Deputy Speaker. I would like to echo the comments of the shadow Minister for aviation to the effect that our experience in the Chamber today shows something of a contrast. It shows the great strengths of this Parliament—that we can embrace both the aggressive exchanges that we heard earlier and the detailed and considered scrutiny of legislation that we are undertaking now.

I also very much welcome the words of support that the shadow Minister has expressed—both today and throughout the scrutiny of the Bill—for the broad thrust of the framework put before the House. This is a Bill that started its life under the previous Administration, so although it is being put forward by a coalition consisting of Conservatives and Lib Dems, it owes much to our Labour predecessors. That degree of cross-party involvement has strengthened the Bill, as have the extensive consultation done by the previous Government and the further work with stakeholders done by the current Government.

Before I deal with the amendments in detail, I want to make a general point about the passenger experience. I completely agree that a key aim of the Bill is to ensure that we improve the passenger experience at our regulated airports, because it is important both for passengers and for our economic competitiveness, the quality of our airports and making passengers the central priority of our regulated airports. That is essential. Although Opposition Members have expressed concern and called for changes in the Bill to reflect that, I hope they will agree that what is already in the Bill will be a significant overall improvement on the current system, which essentially leaves the CAA with few levers at its disposal in the five-yearly price control process. That process is important, but the Bill enables the regulator to opt for real-time regulation, so that it can intervene when passengers need it, in a flexible and targeted way, to address just the sort of issues that so many hon. Members have raised today. Although we may differ on the precise drafting of the Bill on some issues, I hope that we can uniformly agree that it will be a significant step towards achieving a better experience for passengers at our airports.

Let me deal first with the amendments; I will come to the new clause in a moment. There can be no doubt about the importance of these issues, whether it is baggage handling or the protection and safeguarding of passengers in the event of disruption. I have huge sympathy with all the passengers who were subjected to hassle and inconvenience during the various incidents outlined by hon. Members today. It is clear that the aviation sector as a whole needs effective means to deal with passenger welfare during such incidents. The hon. Member for Blackley and Broughton (Graham Stringer) gave us a timely reminder that this is not just a matter for airports, but that airlines have a number of important and legally binding duties in respect of passenger welfare. However, it is clear that airports have an important role to play as well.

Although I can understand and agree with the sentiment behind much of what has been said today and the general aims of the amendments, I cannot recommend accepting them. The Bill provides a far more effective means of protecting passengers in relation to the matters raised. Clause 18 and the licensing regime will give the CAA the flexibility to tailor licence conditions to the specific circumstances facing individual airports. That flexibility is important as a means of minimising distortions associated with regulatory intervention and ensuring that the action taken by the CAA is proportionate and tailored to individual circumstances. As I said in response to the hon. Member for Bolton West (Julie Hilling), giving the independent expert regulator flexibility and discretion in deciding the content of the licence is a more effective way to protect the interests of both present and future passengers. If Parliament chooses to use the legislation to hard-code certain points into licences, that would constrain the regulator’s freedom to decide what priority should be afforded to different passenger concerns and what costs should be allowed for the delivery of competing consumer priorities.

The amendments would make the licence system unbalanced because there is a wide range of different issues that passengers care about. Moreover, a prescriptive approach in the Bill is likely to make it more difficult for the regulator to adapt its approach to the changing concerns of passengers. If we adopted the amendments we would risk obliging the Civil Aviation Authority to give greater weight to the factors listed in the amendments than to matters that might become equally or, indeed, more important to passengers in future.

I hope that I can provide some reassurance to hon. Members on the matters that they have raised. They can be confident that the CAA would use the new licensing powers proposed under the Bill to address the issues that they have raised in the amendments. As we discussed in Committee, in response to a request for advice from the Secretary of State, the CAA has published an indicative licence to assist Parliament in its scrutiny of the Bill. A copy was sent to the Library and, at the request of the Department for Transport, the draft licence includes provisions on operational resilience which, I agree, are crucial for an airport to be effective.

The proposals in condition 7 would require the licence holder to operate the airport efficiently and to use its best endeavours to minimise any detriment to passengers arising from disruption. It would also require the airport to draw up, consult on and gain the CAA’s approval for an annual resilience plan setting out how it would secure compliance with its obligations under the condition. The licence holder would then be obliged to comply with commitments it made in its resilience plan. I hope that reassures hon. Members, including the hon. Member for Bolton West (Julie Hilling).

[Gavin Shuker (Luton South) (Lab/Co-op)]

Will the Minister confirm that if the amendments are not accepted, the current insufficient resilience safeguards might be something dealt with in a licence issued by the CAA?

[Mrs Villiers]

If I understand the hon. Gentleman correctly, yes, it is clear that the Bill provides the CAA with flexibility to include provisions in the licence on baggage handling and passenger welfare. Our rejection of the amendments should not be taken as an indication that matters are not sufficient; it is simply that the Bill already provides the tools for the CAA to deal with those them.

[Gavin Shuker]

I am extremely grateful to the Minister for giving way again. She it talking about the provisions positively. Is it her view that the CAA should issue licences with provisions on those particular points?

[Mrs Villiers]

As I believe I said, the previous Secretary of State had already indicated to the CAA that resilience and passenger welfare were issues that should be addressed in the licence.

--- Later in debate ---

[Gavin Shuker]

The hon. Gentleman goes to the heart of the issue. I agree with him completely that the regime that comes in must be as good as, if not better than, the one it replaces. That is why amendment 13 would require the Secretary of State to carry out a full assessment of the change. I hope that there will be support for that if it is pressed later.

The hon. Gentleman’s second point was that change is important. Change is essential in aviation security and in all aspects of security so that we do not get into the pattern of doing the same thing day after day and thereby miss the threats. This country has an advanced aviation security regime. There is good partnership between airports, the Department for Transport and the agency within the DFT to ensure that it is implemented. When I sat on the Transport Committee, I was pleased to accompany its Chair, who spoke earlier in this debate, to speak to the officials who are charged with our aviation security in the run-up to the passage of the legislation. It is clear that we have major expertise in this, which we can share across Europe.

The key issue is not whether the Bill will strengthen or weaken our aviation security, nor what operational procedures or equipment we should use, but the question raised by the hon. Member for Beckenham (Bob Stewart): will the regime be better? At this stage, I do not have the information that is needed to answer that question. More important, I fear that the House has not had an opportunity to explore and answer that question fully. The new clause seeks to bring about such an opportunity, which is extremely welcome.

When we consider what the role of the Government should be, we see that the public expect there to be a hierarchy of interventions. There are places where they do not want government at all, and there are places where it is very much required. Security and the protection of the people are at the top of that hierarchy. Although the change being made in the Bill is not in any way designed to push the matter off the Secretary of State’s desk, it is a change to a system that has by and large worked very well.

The change is very big, however, and as I said in an intervention, it comes in the context of changes that are happening around Europe. I visited Brussels two weeks ago to talk about a number of subjects, and the extent to which the UK has become a tarnished brand was clear. Ever since the Conservative party moved to a more right-wing grouping within Europe, and more recently because of the veto that the Prime Minister exercised—although many of us would question what it actually stopped—our Government’s ability to influence other national Governments’ policies on various matters that we should agree on as a bloc has been diminished.

[Mrs Villiers]

I think the hon. Gentleman would be interested to know that the last time I attended the Council of Ministers, the Danish presidency proactively raised the issue of security reform, drawing on a number of the principles that we were considering in the UK. There is already interest in Europe in what we are doing, and we as a country can take a leading role in the debate on how to deliver a much more effective and passenger-friendly security regime.

[Gavin Shuker]

I absolutely agree that we have great expertise to share across Europe, and I am pleased to hear that the Minister has been making that point in Brussels. If she were being charitable, though, I think she would accept that the atmosphere there has changed.

[Mrs Villiers]

indicated dissent.

[Gavin Shuker]

No, she is not going to be charitable. Okay.

The Minister rightly gave the example of the ministerial team at the Department for Transport having acted in response to concerns about European guidance on security related to the Sikh community. The current system allowed her to take that action, but we are about to change that system.

[Mrs Villiers]

I can reassure the hon. Gentleman that the move to an outcomes-focused, risk-based system will not change the responsibilities in relation to directions such as that given by the former Secretary of State, my right hon. Friend the Member for Runnymede and Weybridge (Mr Hammond). Under the new system, the Secretary of State will still have the power to make directions such as he did in relation to the problem of religious headgear.

[Gavin Shuker]

I am extremely grateful to the Minister for giving me that assurance, but I would like her to give it to the House in a full debate about aviation security. By 7 o’clock tonight, the House will have finished Report stage. My party’s Front Benchers made their arguments so forcefully that I am sure they will carry the day if the amendments are pressed, but if not, we will have to go on assurances from the Government, not on assessments such as those we call for in the amendments or on positive resolutions of both Houses such as could be made if new clause 3 were accepted.

I accept the Minister’s point about leadership and am pleased that she is being responsive on the matter, but we must not ignore the fact that a big change is being made to aviation security. The public will want us to be able to account for what we have done. The change should not be made lightly; it should be made with the full, cross-party support of the House.

--- Later in debate ---

[Mrs Villiers]

I am afraid that that is how I interpret the new clause. There would be a serious risk that it would have that result, although I am pleased that the hon. Gentleman has assured the House that that is not the intended outcome. He will appreciate that that would be damaging to our efforts to keep people safe.

[Gavin Shuker]

The new clause states:

“An order under this section must be approved by a resolution of each House of Parliament. ”

There is nothing in the measure, as far as I can see, that would prevent the existing powers of the Secretary of State “to direct” from being taken away. It is more about the transition from one regime to another.

[Mrs Villiers]

That may be the Opposition’s intention, but I am advised that the effect could prevent the Secretary of State from taking swift action on the sort of plots that I have outlined.

Turning to amendment 13, clause 82(3) requires the Secretary of State to consult the CAA before making a transfer scheme. Such a scheme would allow, for example, the transfer of relevant staff. I can assure the House that the Department has begun to work with the CAA on understanding how the transfer of staff and property to the regulator might impact on the delivery of the CAA’s functions, whether it is safety, economic regulation or new security functions. The Government’s priority is to ensure that our aviation security remains robust before, during and after the transfer to the CAA. We have begun work to assess the impact of the transfers, for example, to ensure that the CAA has access to the right information and knowledge on aviation security, and we are looking too at how best to integrate aviation security in the CAA, including synergies between safety and security. The CAA is considering how best to manage security at board level, as well as how it can be most effectively managed at operational level. We remain committed to ensuring that the CAA continues to conduct its regulatory functions to a high standard and that it fulfils its aviation security functions to an equally high standard. I therefore urge my colleagues to oppose the amendments and new clause, because I do not think that they are necessary to deliver the outcomes that they are intended to secure.

--- Later in debate ---

[Mrs Villiers]

I warmly agree with my hon. Friend that it is essential to make the best use of the existing capacity in the south-east and around the country. We will explore that in the process that we are undertaking on the future of our aviation capacity needs.

[Gavin Shuker]

I agree with the Minister that we need to make better use of the capacity that we have. Of course, Luton airport in my constituency has more capacity and we are willing to share it. Does she not accept that we have a problem, in that there is no proper UK aviation hub at present?

[Mrs Villiers]

As I said, London is one of the most well connected cities in the world and arguably the most well connected. It has five or, depending on one’s definition, six successful international airports that serve our economy very well. We need this debate to be based on evidence, not on the propaganda that one reads on BAA posters.

As I said, that matter is not, strictly speaking, germane to the motion, so before I try your patience, Madam Deputy Speaker, I will turn to amendments 1 and 2 tabled by the hon. Member for Blackley and Broughton. His intention is that “effectiveness” should be construed as spending wisely. Imposing such an obligation on the CAA could pull it into an inappropriate management role over regulated airports. I am sure that that is not his intention, given that he is rigorous in opposing disproportionate regulation.

My concern is that it is one thing to specify an output that is required, but quite another to specify the manner in which the operator should meet that obligation. The Bill gives the CAA the power to ensure that airports with substantial market power do not impose unreasonable charges on their customers or exploit them. The amendment might oblige the CAA to start telling an airport how to run its business in the most effective way. That outcome would be disproportionate.

The current wording in clause 1(3) is broadly understood by the stakeholders who are affected by the regime. Inserting the word “effectiveness” at this stage might undermine the clarity of the duties to which the CAA is subject, when clarity is one of the most important goals in the Bill.

My hon. Friend the Member for Daventry (Chris Heaton-Harris) is a staunch defender of the air freight industry, and it is always a pleasure to hear his contributions. I repeat the comments that I made in Committee about my admiration for the efficiency and success of that industry in the UK, and I reassure him again that in exercising its information powers in relation to the freight industry, the CAA is obliged to take a proportionate approach. The degree of intervention required in a business-to-business market may be less than is appropriate in the consumer market, and I am sure the CAA will take that on board in ensuring that it takes a proportionate approach.

Rail Investment

Debate between Theresa Villiers and Gavin Shuker

Thursday 17th February 2011 Westminster Hall

[Mrs Villiers]

I am afraid that I really cannot. I do apologise.

We will face severe congestion and overcrowding on those routes in years to come, unless we act now to begin the process of delivering that capacity.

On the alternatives, upgrades of an existing line, even extensive ones, could deliver only half a new line’s capacity benefit and would be more expensive. My hon. Friend the Member for South Northamptonshire asked whether 12-car trains would deliver the equivalent capacity: no, they absolutely would not. The hon. Member for Luton North asked whether new signalling would deliver it, and the answer is the same. We are already introducing new capacity on existing lines, and there comes a point at which incremental changes do not deliver the upgrade needed. Moreover, High Speed 2 will deliver the benefits of capacity released on the existing network, with major benefits for places such as Milton Keynes, Luton, Northampton and Peterborough, and also for freight operators.

I sincerely believe that careful mitigation can address many of the most serious local impacts, and I know that my hon. Friend will continue to fight hard for her constituents, who might be affected by the line. We welcome their involvement in the consultation process on which we are about to embark, to ensure that we get the right answers on high-speed rail and that we listen to the views of people affected by it.

After 20 years of discussion, Crossrail is finally going ahead. I hope that that answers those concerned that High Speed 2 will swallow up all the funding available for rail. The hon. Gentleman complained that the Hitchin flyover might not go ahead as a result of the funding pressure on high-speed rail. It is under way, or will be shortly, as it is in an investment programme to which the Government have committed. We have confirmed that the Thameslink programme will proceed in full, despite anxiety that it might not. Some 1,200 new carriages will be delivered, almost doubling the number of north-south trains through the capital at peak times.

On the Derby factory and the procurement of the Thameslink trains, the hon. Member for Glasgow South tempted me to depart from the EU’s procurement rules. I fear that I would find myself falling foul of the European Communities Act 1972 if I did, so I will not advocate failing to abide by our treaty obligations, but I can assure the House that bids from UK-based operators will be considered carefully and assessed fairly, objectively and equally.

The Government expect an additional 650 carriages in several of our major cities by 2014. We expect services to be strengthened into Leeds, Manchester, Sheffield, Liverpool, Newcastle, Birmingham, Bristol—to answer the concerns of the hon. Member for Chippenham (Duncan Hames)—London Paddington and London Waterloo. In addition, new Thameslink and Crossrail rolling stock will enable the redeployment of hundreds more existing electric carriages, strengthening the case for further electrification of our network. I hope that that responds to the concerns expressed about the quality of rolling stock in the north. The hon. Member for Bolton West (Julie Hilling) rightly raised concerns about the quality of that rolling stock and the notorious Pacer trains. We believe that our programme of new rolling stock will help address those concerns.

As the Chancellor confirmed in his Budget speech, lines between Liverpool, Manchester, Preston and Blackpool will be electrified. The redeployment of electric rolling stock to those routes will in turn free up hundreds of diesel units, which will be available for train operators to lease after 2015. In November, the Secretary of State announced that Network Rail will electrify routes on the Great Western main line from London to Didcot, Oxford and Newbury. We expect to make an announcement shortly on the further electrification of that line. We have decided to press ahead with plans to buy a new fleet of trains to replace most of the high-speed trains operating on the Great Western and east coast lines. We have narrowed down the options to two, and we hope to give the House more information in the near future.

The hon. Member for Luton South and others were concerned about stations. We are continuing with the £150 million national stations improvement programme and the £370 million access for all programme, including £2.3 million to be spent on a scheme at Luton.

[Gavin Shuker]

Will the Minister give way?

[Mrs Villiers]

I am afraid that I cannot. I have run out of time. Birmingham New Street will go ahead, hopefully delivering economic benefits of £2 billion. Improvements at Reading will address a long-standing bottleneck, benefiting people across the Great Western line.

The Chairman of the Select Committee and others are absolutely right to say that it is crucial to get better value for taxpayers’ and passengers’ funding of the railways. Reforming our railways and reducing their cost is essential. The Chairman of the Select Committee and the hon. Member for Cheltenham (Martin Horwood) rightly expressed concerns about the high cost of Network Rail compared with other operators in Europe. We recognise fully the concerns about rail fares. To answer the shadow Minister’s question, we believe that we should share the benefits of the reduction in railway running costs that we expect the McNulty review to deliver. They will be shared between fare payers and taxpayers. We are also clear that any changes suggested by the McNulty review must protect freight operators’ interests.

There is an important role for open access, as my hon. Friend the Member for Blackpool North and Cleveleys urged me to make clear, although open access is not necessarily his only hope of direct train services between Blackpool and London. No decisions have been made yet, but it is possible that that might form part of franchised operations.

We are working closely on the northern hub. I recognise that there is a lot of support for it. Dealing with the problems identified in the project would be of great benefit to the economy of the north of England. I cannot give any guarantees today, but it must be a strong candidate for funding in the next control period.

Hon. Members have supported a list of projects. On the Swindon-Kemble line, if there were any spare funding down the DFT’s sofa, as the hon. Member for Cheltenham asked, I am sure that Swindon-Kemble would be a good candidate. However, he will appreciate that our rail budgets are fully committed. He made a good point about the improvements to resilience that the project would deliver. The hon. Member for Liverpool, Riverside mentioned the midland main line. There is a strong business case for it, but again, affordability is a concern. I am always happy to talk about Kirkstall Forge, and I look forward to the revised bid, which I believe will be made in September. It is a good scheme with significant benefits, and I hope that one day it will proceed. We will have to see whether it proves affordable, given our budget constraints.

I am grateful for the time allowed me to speak in this debate.