Coronavirus

Debate between Thangam Debbonaire and Matt Hancock

Wednesday 11th March 2020 Commons Chamber

[Matt Hancock]

That is incredibly important, and we have to keep reiterating it, even though we may have heard it a thousand times—I may have said it even more than that. Although there is a huge debate about coronavirus and what we can do as a country, there are some really simple things that are really effective.

[Thangam Debbonaire (Bristol West) (Lab)]

I have two questions for the Secretary of State. I thank him for his commitment to keeping this place open, which I agree is very important.

What guidance will the Secretary of State give to prepare us for what may be necessary, such as the possibility of having to cancel events, constituency surgeries and so on? I have staff, as I am sure most Members do, who are already concerned about how they should be protecting us and, most importantly, themselves and their family and friends.

Secondly, what is the Secretary of State doing, or talking to colleagues about doing, for those on very low incomes who have to self-isolate and are unable to order food through the internet because they have either no credit card or no internet?

[Matt Hancock]

First, the Leader of the House, Mr Speaker and the House of Commons Commission, advised by Public Health England, are best placed to come forward with guidance on the details of how this place can run should a significant number of colleagues and, potentially, staff be unwell or self-isolating.

Secondly, it is very hard, from central Government, to make sure we reach all the people who will need the sort of support the hon. Lady describes. This is best done through local authorities, which is why we have introduced a £0.5 billion fund for local authorities essentially to do whatever they think is necessary in these circumstances.

NHS Funding Bill

Debate between Thangam Debbonaire and Matt Hancock

2nd reading & 2nd reading: House of Commons
Monday 27th January 2020 Commons Chamber

[Matt Hancock]

Yes, absolutely. If we use technology to set up a better booking system for GPs, it turns out that we reduce by a third the number of times people do not attend.

[Thangam Debbonaire (Bristol West) (Lab)]

Oh, come on!

[Matt Hancock]

Somebody on the Opposition Front Bench just shouted, “Oh, come on!” when I talked about saving huge amounts of money by reducing by a third the number of people who do not attend a GP appointment. They should get with the programme, and use the best technology to support our staff in the NHS.

Access to Medical Cannabis

Debate between Thangam Debbonaire and Matt Hancock

Monday 8th April 2019 Commons Chamber

[Matt Hancock]

My hon. Friend makes a good point. More than 80 prescriptions have been made, but that is for both THC and CBD. Of course, THC brings risks—the active elements within cannabis do bring risks. There are also benefits, as I have seen very clearly. It must be for a clinician to decide the balance of those risks. I have enormous sympathy for the families, having heard their personal testimony about the massive benefits for their children, who sometimes, as my right hon. Friend the Member for Hemel Hempstead (Sir Mike Penning) said, have 300 seizures a day. Having seen that and looked them in the eye, I understand the benefits. However, it has to be a clinician who makes that judgment. I am not medically qualified and cannot overrule a clinician, but there are clinicians available who can provide a second opinion, and that is what I can ensure.

[Thangam Debbonaire (Bristol West) (Lab)]

I am grateful to the Secretary of State for what he has said so far, but I have spoken with a neurosurgeon in my constituency who says that one of his anxieties is not being able to give good advice to parents whom he suspects might be trying to access medical cannabis through not wholly legal routes, because he is unsure what the law is. I agree with the Secretary of State on the need for clinical evidence, so what more information can he give us on the timescale? When will we see the health education research that he talks about? In the meantime, why can we not use the evidence of clinical trials conducted elsewhere?

[Matt Hancock]

The evidence of clinical trials from elsewhere can and should be used. All international clinical evidence should be brought to bear on such decisions and has been in the case of CBD. As for how quickly things will happen, the answer is, as the hon. Lady would imagine, as soon as possible.

Oral Answers to Questions

Debate between Thangam Debbonaire and Matt Hancock

Thursday 21st June 2018 Commons Chamber

[Matt Hancock]

My hon. Friend is also a great example of the future of the north of England, and I would be delighted to meet him to discuss these new technologies that are coming on stream that will help improve connectivity in Yorkshire.

[Thangam Debbonaire (Bristol West) (Lab)]

In Bristol, Bristol Plays Music and the Music Trust are developing a cultural curriculum with Bristol Old Vic and various other arts organisations. Will the Secretary of State or the Culture Minister, the hon. Member for Stourbridge (Margot James), visit Bristol when this curriculum is implemented, and will the Culture Minister support it being used in other schools across the country?

Oral Answers to Questions

Debate between Thangam Debbonaire and Matt Hancock

Thursday 10th May 2018 Commons Chamber

[Matt Hancock]

We have put a huge amount of effort, policy and enthusiasm behind Britain’s music industry, which is gangbuster at the moment. Protecting intellectual property and supporting music and education is a critical part of this. We obviously take inspiration from Southend’s famous sons, including Busted, but, unlike Busted, we are determined that it will not take until the year 3000 for us to get there.

[Thangam Debbonaire (Bristol West) (Lab)]

Along with my hon. Friend the Member for Bristol East (Kerry McCarthy), I recently held a roundtable for Bristol’s fantastic music venues, which, despite very great hard work, face many struggles. Given that every big star, including all the ones that the Secretary of State just named, has to start somewhere, what is he doing to help our fantastic music venues?

[Matt Hancock]

Supporting music venues is a key part of it. That includes making sure that if somebody moves in next door, the agent of change principle applies in the planning process, meaning that they cannot complain about a pre-existing music venue. This is a really important change, and one of many that we are making to support music venues.

Digital Economy Bill (Eleventh sitting)

Debate between Thangam Debbonaire and Matt Hancock

Committee Debate: 11th sitting: House of Commons
Tuesday 1st November 2016 Public Bill Committees

[The Minister for Digital and Culture (Matt Hancock)]

I want to respond to a powerful and impassioned speech by the hon. Member for Bristol West and set out why, while agreeing with much of the substance of what she says, we think that many of the issues are covered by existing legislation and why we think that enforcement is the biggest part of the challenge, as she pointed out. There are also some technical deficiencies with the proposed clause. I will deal with all those issues in the context of strongly supporting the thrust of her argument and the desire to protect vulnerable women.

New clause 5 seeks to make it a criminal offence to

“make available on the internet pornographic material on a commercial basis to persons in the United Kingdom if they know or ought to know that the production of the pornographic material involved exploited persons.”

The language is similar to that used in other parts of the Bill, but it covers quite different ground in terms of the substance. I do not want to see people exploited in this way; the question is about what is provided for through existing law and how the new clause would affect that.

The offence is targeted at persons “making available” material that may have involved exploitation, rather than the exploitation itself. We are committed to ensuring that people are not subject to exploitation; this is a technical difference in respect of the way that the law applies. Tackling exploitation is the existing basis of the work of, for example, the National Crime Agency’s child exploitation online protection command and the violence against women and girls strategy as well as the Modern Slavery Act 2015. Making sure that we implement the 2015 Act—recent legislation—and enforce it is a critical part of the work of the Home Office at the moment.

[Thangam Debbonaire]

I am grateful to the Minister for reassuring me that the 2015 Act could cover what I am talking about. My concern relates to whether that is actually happening. Could the Minister expand further on that point?

[Matt Hancock]

Of course. The expansion of enforcement in respect of the 2015 Act is an important part of the work of the Home Office at the moment. The Minister who took that legislation through Parliament is now the Secretary of State at the Department for Culture, Media and Sport, so Ministers at that Department have a good understanding of not just the legislation, but the need for enforcement.

Existing legislation, including the Criminal Justice and Immigration Act 2008, clearly makes it an offence to be in possession of “an extreme pornographic image”—which includes images depicting non-consensual sex—and to possess and distribute indecent images of children. In addition, the independent Internet Watch Foundation works to identify and remove child sexual abuse, which we discussed earlier in Committee, as well as criminally obscene content hosted anywhere in the world. We are able to take down criminally obscene content, and the approach has started to work effectively. The organisation works closely with Government, at national and local levels, and policing agencies to support investigations and prosecutions.

There are a couple of technical reasons why the new clause is deficient. First, the scope of the offence is unclear; there is no definition as to what constitutes pornographic material. It is not made clear whether the definition at clause 16 of the Bill is to be used. Similarly, it is not clear what is meant by “make available” on the internet: would that capture internet service providers who host the material or just the individual who actually uploaded it to a specific website?

Secondly, the proposed classification of the offence is summary only and the corresponding maximum penalty of six months’ imprisonment, a level 5 fine or both, is incongruous for an offence dealing with this kind of conduct. Other sentences for offences in this area are much more serious. For example, the proposed maximum is much lower than for other offences relating to coercive conduct, such as trafficking for sexual exploitation, which carries a maximum of life imprisonment, and the possession of extreme pornographic images, which carries a maximum of three years’ imprisonment, an unlimited fine or both.

I am also concerned that the offence as drafted could be difficult to prosecute. In practice, it is difficult to show that a person making material available online actually knew, or should have known, that an individual featured had been exploited. There may be no link, or a very tenuous link, between these individuals and those engaged in the exploitation itself. Lastly, there are also potential territorial difficulties involved in prosecuting this offence. In the absence of any express provision to the contrary, it is presumed that any criminal offence is subject to the jurisdiction only when it is perpetrated in the UK. This is an issue that we have dealt with elsewhere in the Bill.

I applaud the hon. Lady’s intentions and have given assurances about the ongoing work in prosecuting other offences. I invite her to withdraw the motion.

[Thangam Debbonaire]

I thank the Minister for his responses. My understanding is that the implementation of the Modern Slavery Act does not cover this area of work so I will be following that up with the Minister and his colleagues. I beg to ask leave to withdraw the motion.

Clause, by leave, withdrawn.

New Clause 13

Offence to use digital ticket purchasing software to purchase excessive number of tickets

‘(1) A person commits an offence if he or she utilizes digital ticket purchasing software to purchase tickets over and above the number permitted in the condition of sale.

(2) A person commits an offence if he or she knowingly resells or offers to resell a ticket that the person knows, or could reasonably suspect, was obtained using digital ticket purchasing software and was acting in the course of a business.

(3) For the purposes of subsection (2) a person shall be treated as acting in the course of a business if he or she does anything as a result of which he makes a profit or aims to make a profit.

(4) A person guilty of an offence under this section shall be liable on summary conviction to—

(a) imprisonment for a period not exceeding 51 weeks,

(b) a fine not exceeding level 5 on the standard scale, or

(c) both.

(5) In this section—

(a) “digital ticket purchasing software” means any machine, device, computer programme or computer software that, on its own or with human assistance, bypasses security measures or access control systems on a retail ticket purchasing platform that assist in implementing a limit on the number of tickets that can be purchased, to purchase tickets.

(b) “retail ticket purchasing platform” shall mean a retail ticket purchasing website, application, phone system, or other technology platform used to sell tickets.”

(6) Subsections (1) and (2) shall apply in respect of anything done whether in the United Kingdom or elsewhere.’—(Nigel Adams.)

This new clause creates an offence to use digital ticket purchasing software to purchase tickets for an event over and above the number permitted in the condition of sale. It also creates an offence to knowingly resell tickets using such software.

Brought up, and read the First time.

Digital Economy Bill (Seventh sitting)

Debate between Thangam Debbonaire and Matt Hancock

Committee Debate: 7th sitting: House of Commons
Tuesday 25th October 2016 Public Bill Committees

[Thangam Debbonaire (Bristol West) (Lab)]

I rise to speak in support of these amendments and new clauses, and to add a bit of colour and flavour to some of the arguments that have already been made. We often talk about rights holders, but we need to be aware that behind those rights holders are individual artists, musicians and technical people. It is not just about my hon. Friend the Member for Cardiff West; it is about the technical people involved in any recording, film or e-book. Many people are involved in those processes, and every time we deny their right to be paid, we are denying them the right to continue working in the way that we would want them to work.

Which of us here has not skipped gaily around the Palace of Westminster, at least in our imagination, with a song in our heart or a tune in our head? Maybe that is just me. Most of us have a favourite film, and we have music at special family occasions. A poem will be read at a funeral and a song will be danced to at a wedding, and all the people involved in producing them need to be paid properly for their work.

There should not be this wild west of a shopping mall where people can access whatever they want for free, without proper provision for reimbursing those involved. Unfortunately, search engines in particular, but also other providers, are allowing that illegal shopping mall to exist, and so artists, writers and others involved in the creative industries are not getting their proper deserts. That is important.

The hon. Member for Selby and Ainsty and my hon. Friend the Member for Cardiff West both mentioned economic value. I emphasise that according to the Government’s own website, the creative industries are contributing £9.6 million an hour to the UK economy. Since we sat down to work, the creative industries have contributed £9.6 million. UK music alone contributes £4.1 billion each year, which is something to think about. The creative industries are growing at twice the rate of the UK economy, at 8.9%, and we want them to continue to grow. We do not want to deny them part of their income—admittedly the minority, but it is still significant.

We tabled these amendments because we need to harmonise copyright and ensure that licensing laws work across the online and offline world. We want to help Conservative Members to fulfil their commitment in the Tory party manifesto, and new clause 3 would help

“the Government to fulfil its manifesto commitment to reduce copyright infringement and ensure search engines do not link to the worst-offending sites.”

We seem to have a degree of cross-party unity on the value of that measure. I look forward to hearing what the Minister has to say, because there is otherwise an absence of a specific provision in the Bill to achieve this.

I want us to make sure that the good examples, such as Get it Right from a Genuine Site, are taken up and followed, to avoid the unfortunate misdemeanours of others, such as search engines that can remain nameless—we can all guess who they are and others may have already mentioned them. It is not okay for search engines to drive—wittingly or unwittingly, but they should reasonably have known—towards illegal sites.

Consumers do not want musicians, film makers and others to be robbed of their just deserts. Mostly, we want to be able to be sure that when musicians have made a piece of music we love, they get properly paid for it. It is incumbent on search engines and others to make sure that that happens, and to use the power we know they have to create their algorithms to work properly in this respect. We would not tolerate a shopping mall in which signs and property space were given to illegal shops selling illegal goods. This is the equivalent.

I am absolutely convinced that the Minister would want to honour the commitment in the Tory party manifesto to rectify that. On Second Reading, the former Secretary of State, the right hon. Member for Maldon (Mr Whittingdale) said,

“there may well be a case for including a legal provision encouraging providers to establish a voluntary code.”

He also said:

“we cannot allow Google and other search providers to go on allowing people access to illegal sites.” —[Official Report, 13 September 2007; Vol. 614, c. 785.]

I am convinced that the Minister will want to take up the mantle he has been thrown by the former Secretary of State and I urge him to do so.

[The Minister for Digital and Culture (Matt Hancock)]

What a pleasure it is finally to stand to respond to the long interventions and speeches from Labour Members. It is a joy to hear that at least some of them understand and believe in property rights. Conservative Members certainly do.

The discussion has turned into a debate not only on amendments 92 and 93 and new clauses 3 and 33 but essentially on clause stand part. I therefore hope that Committee members will understand if I explain the whole clause in my response.

Digital Economy Bill (Sixth sitting)

Debate between Thangam Debbonaire and Matt Hancock

Committee Debate: 6th sitting: House of Commons
Thursday 20th October 2016 Public Bill Committees

[Thangam Debbonaire]

I thank the hon. Lady for that clarification. I understand from an intervention made by my hon. Friend the Member for Cardiff West that the reason why we were not allowed to remove the words “on a commercial basis” was that they were deemed out of scope. As I understand it, the word “economy”, if we stick to the letter of it, includes transactions for which there is no financial payment. There are transactions involved, and the word “digital” is in the title of the Bill, so I think it unfortunate that the amendment was not agreed to. Taking out the words “on a commercial basis” would have done a great deal to make consistent across all platforms and all forms of pornographic content available online the restrictions that we are placing on commercial ones.

I support the amendments proposed by my hon. Friend to the wording of clause 15(5)(a) and (6), for reasons that have already been given, and I want to add to the arguments. Hon. Friends and Members may have read the evidence from Girlguiding. As a former Guide, I pay tribute to the movement for the excellent work that it has done. It has contributed a profound and well-evidenced understanding of what young women are saying about online pornography. I will pick out a couple of statistics, because they make arguments to which I will refer in interventions on later clauses. That will make my speeches less long.

In the 2016 girls’ attitudes survey, half of the girls said that sexism is worse online than offline. In the 2014 survey, 66%, or two thirds, of young women said that they often or sometimes see or experience sexism online. It is a place where young women routinely experience sexism, and part of that sexism is the ubiquity of pornography. In 2015, the survey found that 60% of girls aged 11 to 21 see boys their age—admittedly, some of those are over the age of 18, but they are still the girls’ peers—viewing pornography on mobile devices or tablets. In contrast, only 27% of girls say that they see girls their age viewing pornography. The majority of those young women say from their experience that children can access too much content online and that it should be for adults only. In the survey, we see a certain degree of concord among young women in the Girlguiding movement, Opposition Members and the Government manifesto, which pledged, as my hon. Friend said, to exclude children from all forms of online pornography.

The 2015 Girlguiding survey also found that those young women felt that pornography was encouraging sexist stereotyping and harmful views, and that the proliferation of pornography is having a negative effect on women in society more generally. Those young women are the next generation of adults.

I have worked with young men who have already abused their partners. In my former job working with domestic violence perpetrators, I worked with young men of all ages; for the men my age, their pornography had come from the top shelf of a newsagent, but the younger men knew about forms of pornography that those of us of a certain age had no understanding of whatever. They were using pornography in ways that directly contribute to the abuse of women and girls, including pornography that is filmed abuse. I shall come back to that point later, but we need to recognise that young men are getting their messages about what sex and intimacy are from online pornography. If we do not protect them from online pornography under the age of 18, we are basically saying that there are no holds barred.

The hon. Member for Devizes and my hon. Friend the Member for Sheffield, Heeley mentioned loopholes. When we leave loopholes, it creates a colander or sieve for regulation. Yes, the internet is evolving and, yes, we in this Committee Room probably do not know every single way in which it already provides pornography, and certainly not how it will in future, but that is a good reason to provide a strong regulatory framework when we have the chance. We have that chance now, and we should take it. If it remains the case that removing the words “on a commercial basis” is deemed outside our scope, which I find very sad—I think it is a missed opportunity, and I hope the House can return to it at some point and regulate the free content—we must definitely ensure that we are putting everything else that we possibly can on a level playing field. That means that the regulation of video on demand has to be consistent and that we have to close any other loophole we can spot over the next few days.

I hope Opposition amendments will make the Government think about the manifesto commitment they rightly made—I am happy to put on the record that I support it—and take the opportunity to stick to it. Young women want that; young men need it, because my experience of working with young men who have abused their partners and ex-partners is that they felt that they were getting those messages from pornography; and we as a society cannot afford to ignore this problem any longer. We have a chance to do something about it, so let us take that opportunity.

[The Minister for Digital and Culture (Matt Hancock)]

It is great to hear that outbreak of support for the Conservative party manifesto.

--- Later in debate ---

[Thangam Debbonaire]

I must have it clearly on the record that I supported that commitment only: not the whole Conservative manifesto, just the bit that says “We want to protect all children from all online pornography.”

[Matt Hancock]

I am sure our powers of persuasion will extend that support in the future. The outbreak of support for our manifesto is welcome; this is an incredibly important area, and I am proud to lead the Front-Bench effort to deal with underage people’s access to adult material by introducing age verification. I want to respond in detail to the points made, because it is important we get this right.

Before I come to the specific amendments, I will deal with commercial providers. The measures in the Bill will apply equally to all commercial providers, whether their material is paid for directly or appears on free sites that operate on a different business model. “Commercial” has quite a broad meaning, as my hon. Friend the Member for Devizes said. If a provider makes money from a site in any way, whether or not it makes a profit, it can be caught by the legislation. That is the right distinction, because it targets those who make money and are indifferent to the harm their activities may cause to children.

--- Later in debate ---

[Thangam Debbonaire]

Forgive me, but the Minister just gave a lot of information, and I want to clarify something. Whichever regulator is doing it, will the effect of the legislation as he would like to see it put R18 films and 18-rated films on on-demand services at the same level of age verification? I am not clear on that point.

[Matt Hancock]

The aim is that even though the regulator may be different in those two cases, the result would be the same. I can give the hon. Lady that assurance. The Bill will do that without having double regulation. As we discussed earlier with regard to a different part of the Bill, having double regulation in the same area can lead to confusion and worse outcomes, rather than clarity and better outcomes.

A service that falls within part 4A of the Communications Act 2003—that is to say, one that is outwith the proposals —must not contain any specially restricted material, unless that material is made available in a manner that secures that persons under the age of 18 will not normally see or hear it. Specially restricted material includes R18 material and other material that might seriously impair the physical, mental or moral development of persons under the age of 18. Our intention is that such other material should include material that the BBFC would describe as 18 sex works. I think that answers precisely the point that the hon. Lady was making.

--- Later in debate ---

[Matt Hancock]

As the regulator said, the proposals here mark a huge step forward in tackling the problem. We have to make a balanced judgment: there is a balance to be struck between the extra powers to block and the need to ensure that they are proportionate. The powers are not a silver bullet; sites that were actively trying to avoid the Bill’s other enforcement measures would also be able to actively avoid these measures. It is questionable how much additional enforcement power they would bring, given those downsides.

[Thangam Debbonaire]

I must press the Minister to consider that children’s charities have told us that this is one of the most important amendments to the Bill. The Minister says that porn sites could simply move their URLs, but that is not a reason not to take a stand by giving the regulator the power that it has asked for and that children’s charities have particularly asked for.

[Matt Hancock]

Children’s charities and the regulator have asked for action to solve the problem of needing age verification. That is what the Bill delivers. The question of how to enforce that is incredibly important; there are different considerations to be made, and I think the Bill has ended up with the correct balance.

--- Later in debate ---

[Thangam Debbonaire]

I will return to the evidence on this point to make clear why I support what the hon. Member for Devizes is trying to do. In his evidence last week, the NSPCC’s Alan Wardle—I think I have got that right—said quite clearly:

“I think that is why the enforcement part is so important…so that people know that if they do not put these mechanisms in place there will be fines and enforcement notices, the flow of money will be stopped and, crucially, there is that backstop power to block if they do not operate as we think they should in this country. The enforcement mechanisms are really important to ensure that the BBFC can do their job properly and people are not just slipping from one place to the next.”––[Official Report, Digital Economy Public Bill Committee, 11 October 2016; c. 47, Q108.]

So what my hon. Friend the Member for Sheffield, Heeley has just said is summed up very well by the NSPCC in its official evidence, and I hope that the Minister will have an answer for the NSPCC as well as for this Committee.

[Matt Hancock]

I am thankful for the opportunity to respond. I will actually respond to the points made about these amendments, which were tabled by my hon. Friend the Member for Devizes, rather than the reiteration of the blocking debate, which we have had and will no doubt have again on further clauses.

First, clause 17 clearly makes provision for the Secretary of State to designate more than one person as a regulator. Secondly—a crucial point—the complexity in regulation is deciding who is satisfying the rules and who is not, and that is for the BBFC to determine, whereas issuing fines is essentially a matter of execution and could be fulfilled by a variety of bodies. We will come forward with more detail on that in due course.

I think the whack-a-mole analogy inadvertently made the point, which is that when we are trying to deal with a problem on the internet, where people can move about, we can deal with the mainstream of the problem, which comes from reliable providers of adult material, who are already engaged and want to ensure they comply with the law. In future, once this measure becomes law, refusing to put age verification on adult material will be illegal, so we will be dealing with illegal activity. That will mean that the vast majority of people will comply with the law, and we heard that very clearly in the evidence session. The question then is how to deal with non-compliance and on the internet we know that that is very difficult. The proposals are to deal with non-compliance by disrupting business models and by imposing financial penalties.

I understand what my hon. Friend is trying to do. She is trying to strengthen the imposition of financial controls. Inadvertently, however, her amendments would reduce the regulator’s discretion by obliging the it to apply sanctions when they are available, and they would remove the power to apply financial penalties to non-UK residents.

We want to be able to fine non-UK residents—difficult as that is—and there are international mechanisms for doing so. They do not necessarily reach every country in the world, but they reach a large number of countries. For instance, Visa and other payment providers are already engaged in making sure that we will be able to follow this illegal activity across borders.

Therefore, while I entirely understand where my hon. Friend is coming from, the amendments would inadvertently have the effect of removing the ability to apply an enforcement notice to a UK resident, although I am certain that that is not what she intended. So I resist the amendment but I give her the commitment that we have drafted the clause in such a way as to make it as easy as possible for the enforcement regulator to be able to take the financial route to enforcement.

On the point made by the hon. Member for Berwickshire, Roxburgh and Selkirk, the provisions do extend to Scotland, with necessary modifications to Scottish law. I am sure that he, like me, will have seen clause 17(5) and clause 20(11)(b), which refer to modifications needed to be consistent with Scottish law. On the basis of that information, I hope that my hon. Friend will withdraw the amendment.

--- Later in debate ---

[Matt Hancock]

Unfortunately, the hon. Gentleman has lost his opportunity for that because the deadline for tabling amendments has passed. We should have an enduring assessment of the effectiveness of the Bill and an ongoing review of how effective the policy is. Select Committees have an important role to play in doing that. I resist the amendment on the grounds that it is impractical, because of the timings I have discussed, and because it is far better that such matters are reviewed constantly, rather than just on a one-off.

[Thangam Debbonaire]

In my experience, ongoing reviews tend to mean never. If you do not have a deadline or target, that gives you the scope just to say, “We are doing it and will carry on doing it for some time,” without there ever being a point at which you say, “Here’s a review.” An annual review is such an easy thing to which to commit; why not do it?

[Thangam Debbonaire]

I apologise.

[Matt Hancock]

We thought you might be the regulator for part 4, Mr Stringer.

I suppose this is the difference between the two sides of the House: for the Opposition, an ongoing review means never; for the Government, an ongoing review means always.

--- Later in debate ---

[Matt Hancock]

They should be treated the same in that the same provisions in the Bill should be applied to each, but each performs a different role and ISPs are inevitably more closely connected to the provision of content because the content goes through an ISP, whereas a search engine may or may not be the route through which content is found. For implementation, it is clear that that is for the regulator to decide within the provisions set out in the Bill.

[Thangam Debbonaire]

I refer the Minister to the point made by the hon. Member for Devizes, who mentioned the murder of April Jones and the fact that her killer was able to type certain words into a search engine that I cannot bear to repeat. Search engines have the power to change their algorithm—we know they do.

--- Later in debate ---

[Matt Hancock]

The point that my hon. Friend the Member for Devizes was making is that, owing to her work, the search engines made precisely those sorts of changes on a voluntary basis. At the request of the Government and others, they now undertake millions of changes to their algorithms and millions of take-downs for both child porn and terrorist-related purposes. That system is working well, and it does not need to be underpinned by regulation.

There is then a wider question. I am straying to the limits of order to discuss this, but my hon. Friend very effectively argued that the principle that the internet should provide the freedom that it provides within the framework of a regulated structure. We agree with that, and we are providing for some of that regulated structure in this Bill. There is a first amendment-type argument, if we are thinking about it in an American way, that the internet is free and laissez-faire and that we should not regulate it. There are people who say, for instance, that we should not recreate national jurisdictional boundaries on the internet and that we should not regulate it, that it should be completely free. We reject that argument, which is why we are prepared to introduce legal requirements on age verification for the provision of information over the internet in the UK jurisdiction. We reject the argument because, at a principled level, the freedoms that we enjoy are freedoms that do not harm others, which applies offline just as much as it applies online. Because the internet is relatively new, we are still in the early days of applying such a principle to the internet. That is a much bigger debate than in clause 22, and therefore I should not go into further detail.

[Thangam Debbonaire]

I believe that the Minister has just answered the question of my hon. Friend the Member for Cardiff West on whether a search engine is an ancillary service provider. The Minister acknowledges that search engines, as well as ISPs, should be considered as such.

[Matt Hancock]

All I did was set out the principles behind the Government’s response to the amendments to clause 22. The Committee must know those principles in order to understand the direction that we are taking on regulation.

I will move on to some of the other points that were made. I will respond to new clause 18 and amendment 79.

--- Later in debate ---

[Matt Hancock]

I hope I can provide some assurances to the perfectly reasonable questions from the hon. Lady. The clause is not an attempt to wriggle out of our manifesto commitment. We will deliver our manifesto commitment in full, and the Bill does that.

The clause provides discretion for the regulator to exercise its functions in a targeted way. It is needed so that the regulator does not break its statutory duties if it goes after the big providers first. As it set out in evidence, the regulator wants to go for the big providers first, and then move on to the smaller and then move on to the next. I want to allow for that to happen, so we need a clause such as this.

[Thangam Debbonaire]

If I am not mistaken, the Minister just said “in a targeted way”. I fail to understand how phrases such as “a large number” or “a large amount” are in any way targeted.

[Matt Hancock]

The clause gives discretion to the regulator. If the regulator went after the big porn sites first, it would not have the vires to distinguish and go after those who do the most harm earliest. It is important that it has the ability to make the legislation work in practice.

Digital Economy Bill (Third sitting)

Debate between Thangam Debbonaire and Matt Hancock

Committee Debate: 3rd sitting: House of Commons
Thursday 13th October 2016 Public Bill Committees

[Thangam Debbonaire]

Q Could you say a bit more about what safeguards are in place for that public service duty and role?

Tony Close: Currently the BBC is still regulated by the BBC Trust. There is a job for us to ensure that there is a framework in place by 3 April or shortly after, to ensure that the BBC is held properly to account. That has many component parts. I suspect that it has a set of metrics. There is an element where you would be looking for consumer feedback on how the BBC is delivering to consumers in their view—whether it is genuinely distinctive or considered to be distinctive by members of the public and whether the audience themselves believe that the BBC is delivering on its obligations and its public purposes.

[The Minister for Digital and Culture (Matt Hancock)]

Q We have had some debate, which you may or may not have followed, on the electronic communication code, and about whether the changes in the Bill, which are designed to reduce the cost of rolling out mobile infrastructure, should go further and mirror the rules around the water industry. I would be interested in your reflections on what the consequences would be, should we make that change.

Lindsey Fussell: Ofcom very much supports the Bill’s provisions on the electronic communications code, because we believe that they will assist with the faster roll-out of mobile infrastructure and its maintenance. We do not have particular expertise to offer on the precise provisions in the Bill, particularly on land valuation. What we are doing is working collaboratively with a very broad range of stakeholders to draw up a code of practice on the way that negotiations should work going forward.