Draft Parliamentary Works Sponsor Body (Abolition) Regulations 2022

Thangam Debbonaire Excerpts

Monday 12th December 2022 General Committees

[Thangam Debbonaire (Bristol West) (Lab)]

It is a pleasure to serve with you in the Chair, Mr Sharma. As I am sure everyone in this room knows, there is an ever-increasing need for urgency when it comes to restoration and renewal, so I welcome this opportunity to at least keep things moving by giving legal effect to resolutions passed in both Houses earlier this year. That is what we are doing: we are just considering the governance structure of the works. As shadow Leader of the House and, therefore, a member of the Commission, I will be supporting the order. However, I do so not because I am happy about where we have got to, but because we have to get a move on.

In my view, it is at least partially on the Government that we are in this position. In 2018, the Commons and the Lords agreed that work was pressing, and rightly concluded that that work should be undertaken by a statutory sponsor body and delivery authority. Since then, various right hon. and hon. Members—not exclusively, but in large part, from the party of Government—seem to be working to undermine the progress of those works, spending time wrangling with the experts instead of working with them to secure the future of the building and the safety of the people in it, and coming up with wizard wheezes that only remind one of what happened in the mid-19th century after the 1834 fire. A previous generation of parliamentarians—none of them qualified—decided they knew best, and would tell engineers what to do. We ended up with the situation we are in now, with substantial flaws in the current building.

We must follow the evidence and the advice of experts. Importantly, we must also heed the wisdom of colleagues such as my right hon. Friend the Member for Alyn and Deeside, who has put in the hard yards—nay, years. I think he has sat on every single Committee over the past 12 years to try to get the parliamentary community to recognise that, yes, maybe we are the generation of MPs that will have to put up with work-arounds and moving out of Parliament to enable those vital works to start. We are doing so for future generations, to make sure that this incredible place, with so much history in it, continues to be a living place of work, not either a dangerous wreck or just a museum.

Delay, asking for new assessments, and the further delay resulting from those assessments brought about a loss of confidence in the previous process, as well as ever-increasing estimates of times and costs. There is a complicated story behind why that happened, which I hope will one day be written, but the independent expert panel tasked by the Commissions to assess the situation concluded that the previous model was unlikely to be viable, and that doing nothing was also not an option. There is no doubt that large-scale works are needed, and I put on record that the longer those works get put off, the more expensive they become. We have already spent a lot of money not getting very far, as the delays exacerbate problems. Costs never go down as a result of waiting.

Members need to engage when we have consultations. I know that Members are busy, and I know there are so many things to call on our attention, but I have been in many consultation events in this place where the number of colleagues who turn up to take part is very, very small—smaller than the number of fingers on half a hand—and I am sure my right hon. Friend the Member for Alyn and Deeside has, as well. If the consultation is at the wrong time or in the wrong place, Members need to try to find other ways to engage.

I will continue to press every single structure involved in this process to make use of every single method they have to consult with Members, but we have to try to meet the project halfway, otherwise this place could really turn into a disaster. We have asbestos, leaks, wires, plumbing that nobody knows the function of, and buildings at risk of fire and flood. It is testimony to the hard work of House staff and contractors that we have not yet witnessed a catastrophic failure of the building, as has been seen in other buildings around the world, such as Notre Dame. However, at some stage, that hard work just will not be enough.

There are opportunities for us to offer apprenticeships and revitalise craft training across the UK through this R and R project, and for patriotic pride. People already feel that pride when they turn up to see Big Ben again, and they will feel it when they see a parliamentary estate that is the iconic building for democracy and British soft power that it can be, given the attention it so badly needs. We need to pass this regulation today so that we can get a move on, but we also need right hon. and hon. colleagues from across the House to do everything they can to support it.

I will finish with one question for the Leader of the House: can she assure us that the Government will do everything they can to support, not frustrate, any future progress, and that we will get estimates and progress on business that needs to come before the House in as speedy a manner as possible, so that we have as little delay as possible? Every single day that goes by puts the building and the hard-working staff who work in it—never mind us; this is an issue of workers’ rights—more at risk.

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[Penny Mordaunt]

I thank colleagues for their contributions, and particularly the shadow Leader of the House for the collaborative way in which we have worked on these matters together. I echo her thanks to all Members who have been to many meetings over many years and spoken to many colleagues to get us to where we are today. I think this is a move motivated by wanting some pragmatism and granularity to the schedule of works. It will mean we can be more creative in how we do the works. I do not think work that has been done to date will be wasted. A huge amount of survey work has been done, and that will help inform options next year, which will form the basis of the consultation with Members.

If we have some granularity in the programme, we will find that we do have other options, which are very difficult to assess at the moment. We might have a different approach to some of our recesses. We might use some of the new technology we used during covid, such as the remote voting system, which cost £1.3 million and was used for eight days. We will have more options and more flexibility going forward.

Critically, as the right hon. Member for Alyn and Deeside points out, it is about maximising value, not just controlling costs. I can give the hon. Member for Bristol West the reassurances she seeks. I hope I have given her that impression in the meetings we have been in together. We want to get a move on, and we do understand the concerns. It is why we have prioritised safety at the heart of our approach, as she will know. We are custodians of this incredible building, and we need to safeguard it.

[Thangam Debbonaire]

I thank the Leader of the House for giving way on that point. Will she concede that at some point, as my right hon. Friend the Member for Alyn and Deeside said, we are going to have to move out? The nature of what is underneath us and all around and the connectedness of the two buildings means that even the option that has been touted by many people—that the Lords move out and that we move over there—is just not viable. We made enough fuss when some steps were missing a ramp last summer. It is not like just having builders in to put a new carpet down at home. Will she acknowledge that we are going to have to move out at some point?

[Penny Mordaunt]

I do not want to pre-empt the work that is being done next year, but the hon. Lady is right. I am very sceptical about us being able to dislodge their lordships for starters. Although there will be things that can be done to work around and bypass systems while they are worked on, we obviously have to take into account noise, disruption and a whole raft of things. I think the majority of our colleagues want to minimise the amount of time we are out of the building. Of course they do. I think the problem that happened with what she refers to is that, quite rightly, people were given a task, but the conclusions people came to were too far adrift from the expectations.

I think there is a way through this, but unless we change the approach, get granularity in so we can see the schedule of works that needs to happen, and unless we can get into that Chamber and have a proper survey done, we will not move forward fast. That is our shared aim, and I think that is where we will get to. The right hon. Member for Alyn and Deeside, who has put in more hours than most on this, rightly notes that today we are just implementing a decision of both Houses. I want to make progress, and I want people to be prepared when they are considering standing for election and when colleagues are considering re-standing that they know what future Parliaments will look like in this place. I think we will be helping ourselves.