Offensive Weapons Bill (Second sitting)

Stuart C McDonald Excerpts

Tuesday 17th July 2018 Public Bill Committees

[The Chair]

I can fit in two more before we wrap up at 4.30 pm.

[Stuart C. McDonald (Cumbernauld, Kilsyth and Kirkintilloch East) (SNP)]

Q Assistant Chief Constable, we heard evidence this morning about how the Bill covers the sale of corrosive substances but not their supply. On the one hand, one witness expressed concern that you might have an adult purchase a corrosive substance on behalf of someone under 18 and not be guilty of any sort of criminal offence. On the other hand, another witness pointed out, as I think you did, that you would have to be very careful about criminalising perfectly innocent domestic circumstances. Do you have any views on how we can square that circle? Are other provisions already in place that would criminalise someone purchasing a corrosive substance on behalf of someone under 18?

Assistant Chief Constable Kearton: Yes—it is very similar to the licensing laws we have for alcohol purchases. I presume it would depend on the circumstances as well. There would be that criminal possession in a public place, potentially. It is a very valid question.

The issue behind it for me is to try to emphasise that we do not want young people to be buying this with intent, or for any reason. We want to manage the use of offensive weapons rather than to over-legislate. For me, it is more important to try to get that understanding that this is something that needs to be sold legitimately as a commercially viable product to the right people, who will then use it for the right purposes, rather than something that can then be misused with that malicious intent as an offensive weapon, than it is to rely on heavy legislation as the only answer to preventing this crime.

[Stuart C. McDonald]

Q This question is for you both. There are various obligations in the Bill on companies and businesses selling corrosive substances or bladed weapons remotely. Is there any risk that all their checks could be undermined if the delivery company is negligent or reckless? Is there enough in the Bill and existing legislation to ensure that delivery companies can be held accountable when they are careless or reckless about, for example, delivering a bladed weapon or corrosive substance to someone under 18?

Assistant Chief Constable Kearton: Controls are in place for corrosive substances to take into account that a lot of sales are now online and that there is that opportunity to purchase. That needs to have restrictions, such as a requirement to take reasonable precautions that the person buying is of an appropriate age. The requirement is on the seller to prove that—whether online or through a premises. There must also be appropriate packaging that makes it clear that it is a corrosive substance, that it is harmful and contains something likely to cause harm, and that it must be delivered to someone responsible above the required age, not just handed over to a child on delivery.

[Stuart C. McDonald]

Q For example, you could have a delivery driver at the end of his final shift on a Friday who goes to a house and there is not anyone there who is 18 years old or over. So rather than going back to the depot and extending his shift by an hour, he decides to hand the delivery over. He is completely independent of the seller. Is there a loophole there that you are worried about?

Assistant Chief Constable Kearton: My understanding is that that delivery has to be passed to a responsible person of an appropriate age. I would not say that leaving it on the front doorstep or in a back shed would be handing it to someone of an appropriate age.

[Stuart C. McDonald]

Q Any thoughts, Deputy Assistant Commissioner?

Deputy Assistant Commissioner Ball: It is an interesting point, particularly when you look at the responsibility on the seller in terms of the supply of knives. One of the biggest challenges is from suppliers overseas—websites—which we have no governance or control over. So I am particularly pleased that responsibility for that is placed—under clause 18, I think it is—on the delivery company to ensure that it is carrying out the right checks. There is a responsibility on those delivery companies in those circumstances, and presumably in terms of the contracts they would have with the companies that are selling, to ensure that they know what is in those packages.

[Stuart C. McDonald]

Q You mention clause 18, which would create an offence if the deliverer of the product hands it to somebody under 18. As I understand it, that applies only where the seller is from outside the UK. Why not have some provision for where the sale occurs in the United Kingdom as well? Why is that not necessary?

Deputy Assistant Commissioner Ball: It would be beneficial as well. The main responsibility is on the retailer to meet those particular conditions with what they are actually selling. Obviously, responsible retailers would have appropriate contracts with the delivery company. I guess, in the circumstances you describe, when the issue is about the delivery driver not delivering these things, something along those lines would potentially be of benefit.

[The Chair]

I want a good half-hour to hear from retailers, so, very briefly and lastly, Stephen Morgan.

--- Later in debate ---

[Tulip Siddiq]

Q But they are not backed by legislation to say, “This is against the law”?

Graham Wynn: No, but they have to apply due diligence so it is a matter of employment, contract and training for the person, and getting a criminal record.

[Stuart C. McDonald]

Q Mr Wynn, you expressed a couple of concerns in a paper that was submitted to us. One is that you are not convinced that the arrangements for parcels supplied from overseas are watertight. Could you explain that concern?

Graham Wynn: It does not directly affect our members in that sense, but it is an observation. If a delivery company here has a contract with an overseas supplier or seller of these things, you can understand that it could be required in the contract that the seller advises the delivery company that there is a knife or corrosive substance. But in our view, it is quite possible to have an overseas supplier or seller who might be a small business in or outside the EU, who does not have to mark the parcel and puts it in the post. Customs would intercept it if it is an illegal import, but it may not be as such. The delivery company, the post office, or whoever it is, would not necessarily know that it was one of these articles that ought to be delivered to someone, or not to a residential address, or not to someone under 18. We think there is a gap there. The point of view from our members is that it could discredit the whole system if this becomes widely known. We would like to have more assurance that that is relatively watertight.

[Stuart C. McDonald]

Q Do you have any suggestions as to how it could be made more watertight?

Graham Wynn: Quite honestly, no. Obviously, it requires a legal obligation that cannot be exercised overseas or imposed for someone outside the UK.

[Stuart C. McDonald]

Q Another point that you make is that you believe that the marking of packages draws attention to them and the need for the age check would be better in the paperwork or the digitised documentation. What is the problem of marking that on the package itself?

Graham Wynn: First, it is down to human error and we live in a digital age where not everything is paper. The main thing is that if these things are delivered to a collection point, including a small store or whatever it may be, a garage for collection, it is clearly marked that this is a dangerous item, therefore we think that that possibly it draws attention to it in terms of theft or if it is left unattended. It says: “This is a dangerous item; this is a parcel some people would think worth taking”.

[Stuart C. McDonald]

Q Is there anything you want to add to that, Mr Vara?

Vin Vara: Our membership does not have many e-retailers. The few that we have have shown concerns. One of the things that they are pushing us towards is licensing the importers who bring the knives and special products in. They are also having problems because a lot of these foreign-based companies have domain names with .co.uk or .com. There is not much way of monitoring. Sometimes they are ordering knives or we are ordering knives from them thinking we are buying from a British company, but in the end they are coming from a European or far eastern company. We are looking at some way of having some sort of licensing Bill for them. There could be a registered licence for them for importing this stuff or for exporting from their country to us. We are looking at some ways of doing that.

[The Chair]

Finally, Vicky Foxcroft.