Oral Answers to Questions

Debate between Steve McCabe and Lord Harrington of Watford

Tuesday 13th March 2018 Commons Chamber

[Richard Harrington]

I agree entirely with my hon. Friend. We are working on that, and the Arqiva radio solution provides communications services for the north region. That covers Scotland, and it is contracted to cover nearly 100% of premises by the end of 2020.

[Steve McCabe (Birmingham, Selly Oak) (Lab)]

Does the Minister accept that his statistics are based on surveys that are carried out about 10 weeks after installation? My own survey found that 54% of constituents would currently refuse a smart meter, 97% want to see the costs of the programme shown on their bills, and 74% said that receiving one had not yet made any difference to the size of their bills. Will he also take those findings into account?

[Richard Harrington]

The hon. Gentleman knows me well enough to know that I am very interested in anything he has to say. He contributed a lot to the passage of the Smart Meters Bill in the House of Commons. I would be very interested to receive those statistics, but we do receive them from quite a few different places, and I do not just quote one sample.

Smart Meters Bill

Debate between Steve McCabe and Lord Harrington of Watford

3rd reading: House of Commons & Report stage: House of Commons
Monday 5th February 2018 Commons Chamber

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Business, Energy and Industrial Strategy (Richard Harrington)]

May I say what a pleasure it is to see you in the Chair, Mr Deputy Speaker, even though it obviously means a higher level of behaviour from all of us, as well as our obeying your edicts on timekeeping and so on? I thank all Members who have contributed to the debate, particularly the shadow Minister, the hon. Member for Southampton, Test (Dr Whitehead); the hon. Member for Birmingham, Selly Oak (Steve McCabe); the hon. Member for North Ayrshire and Arran (Patricia Gibson)—I always forget the second bit—and my hon. Friends the Members for Stirling (Stephen Kerr) and for Chippenham (Michelle Donelan).

We have covered a number of areas in our debate, which has built on the consideration given to the Bill on Second Reading and in Committee. The main point about the Bill and the roll-out of smart meters—I am not making light of any of the comments made by Opposition Members, or indeed Conservative Members—is that the prize is a great one: everyone, in their own household, controlling a smart grid that will give them independence, flexibility and consumer choice. In the long run, I hope that that will lead to very significant savings for them. I felt that I should put that into perspective.

[Steve McCabe]

I recognise that that is the Minister’s genuine view, but how much should consumers pay for the privilege, and at what point will he feel that they are not getting the benefits they have been promised?

[Richard Harrington]

As the hon. Gentleman said, I am convinced that consumers will get the benefit from smart meters. In this day and age, it is absurd that people—I include myself—have to read their meters on their hands and knees, with a torch and a duster to remove the cobwebs and everything else. I think that the hon. Gentleman would agree that that is an intolerable situation and that smart meters are the cure.

Let me respond to the shadow Minister’s comments about progress to date. There are now over 8.6 million smart and advanced meters operating across homes and small businesses across Great Britain. Nearly 400,000 smart meters—obviously they affect a lot more people, because of the number of people per household—are installed every month as suppliers ramp up their delivery, and that figure is increasing significantly every quarter. The Government are committed to ensuring that all homes and small businesses are offered smart meters by the end of 2020.

Let me turn to new clause 1. Future smart meter communication licensees will need to demonstrate that they are a “fit and proper person” to carry out relevant functions. That will include factors such as the ownership of the proposed licensee, but it is not appropriate to judge suitability solely on that basis, nor to exclude non-GB companies by default. Doing so would risk failing to deliver value for money for consumers, which could undermine the effectiveness of the smart meter system. I also emphasise that the Government take the national security implications of foreign control and ownership seriously. We have powers under the Enterprise Act 2002 to intervene in mergers and takeovers that give rise to public interest concerns, including about national security.

New clause 2 is about the technical development of smart meters. Overall, we expect that more than 99.25% of premises will be covered by the national communications network. In homes, the standard wireless network will serve the majority of premises successfully. We want 100% of energy consumers to be able to benefit from smart meters, but it is true—this was raised by the Opposition—that the physical characteristics or location of a consumer’s home can affect connectivity. Challenges for systems include a diverse range of building types, including those in which meters can be a long way from the living space. We are working with the industry to identify innovative solutions and extend regulatory powers, because it is very important to have that flexibility.

Smart Meters Bill (Fifth sitting)

Debate between Steve McCabe and Lord Harrington of Watford

Committee Debate: 5th sitting: House of Commons
Tuesday 28th November 2017 Public Bill Committees

[Richard Harrington]

Yes, that is very good. I wondered what the hon. Gentleman did his doctoral thesis on, and now I have discovered it.

It is a judgment call. I hope I made it clear in my previous comments that I do not think his amendment is unreasonable, mad or anything like that; it is just that we have to try to make a judgment, and it is on a different side of the line to his.

The question of why we have not done this before is, like many of the hon. Gentleman’s points, very valid. It is one of the first questions I asked officials when considering this. I have been given a note, which I have not read; I will answer from what I think, rather than what I have been told. I asked that very question. I understand that this was consulted on in 2011 by the Department. The official reason—genuinely—is that there is a lot of competition for parliamentary time, and this is the first opportunity we have had to deal with something that is reasonable, but at the highest level of unlikeliness on the unlikely-o-meter, if there were such a thing. There must be an unlikeliness app to gauge the level of unlikeliness.

I personally think this should have been done before. It was probably less important than it is now and going forward, simply because of the scale of use and the containability of unlikeliness. This was the first opportunity I had to introduce the clause on what to do in the event of these unlikely circumstances, and it is important. It is to stop other interested parties putting in administrators. There are always commercial administrators—for example, companies that have not been paid. There is a normal system to do this that still exists, but it does not have the level of control that the Department or Ofgem would have.

This is important. I could spend 10, 15 or 20 minutes of the Committee’s time going through the reasons why it is important, but those reasons will be debated later on in the Bill’s passage. I hope I have answered the points raised to the best of my ability.

[Steve McCabe]

I do not want to dwell on this, but I am genuinely curious. When the Minister says that the Department consulted on this and decided that there was no need for this sort of protection or safeguard because of parliamentary time, or whatever reason, who did they consult? Presumably not the customers, who would have been the first to say, “Hang on, we don’t like the sound of this.”

[Richard Harrington]

I thank the hon. Gentleman for that comment. Those consulted were stakeholders and so on. I would remind the hon. Gentleman and the shadow Minister that the DCC only went live in 2016. I accept that there would have been a point between 2016 and now that would have been ideal. It is not uncommon to have special administrative regimes in this kind of world—this is the first one for this particular administrator—and it seems obvious for Government or the regulator to have powers basically to override the normal administration system. Given the millions of smart meters around, and given in particular the system whereby they are all electronically talking to each other—which we all want—it would have been negligent for the Government to leave this for another four or five years. It is quite reasonable for this to be the first legislative slot since it went live.

Having said that, I accept that there has been no unreasonable comment in the points made by the hon. Gentleman. There is plenty to discuss in this Bill, and everyone would agree that a special administration regime guards against a risk that the licensee might go into normal insolvency proceedings, which is a standard process within the Companies Act 2006 and something that companies do. The reason that this is a level of unlikeliness that makes it really unlikely is that the income side is more or less guaranteed, as we heard in the evidence from the experts. It is prudent, given that these risks could be there, to have safeguards in place. That is what the clause does. These measures all have precedents in other special administration regimes for energy networks and suppliers. The clause is a sensible measure and I commend that this clause stand part of the Bill.

Question put and agreed to.

Clause 2 accordingly ordered to stand part of the Bill.

Clause 3

Objectives of a smart meter communication licensee administration

[Steve McCabe]

I beg to move amendment 8, in clause 3, page 2, line 34, after “efficiently”, insert “, transparently”.

This amendment would make it an objective of the smart meter communication licensee administration to operate in a way which would allow the general public to be aware of his functions.

It is probably quite fortunate that this debate follows the discussion that just took place, because the purpose of amendment 8 is to make it an objective of the smart meter communication licensee administration to operate in a way that would allow the general public to be aware of its functions.

We are talking about a situation that is clearly about accountability, albeit one that people think is unlikely. This is a situation in which a massive investment goes wrong and the Minister is forced to set up a special administration regime. In those circumstances, it makes sense for people to know what is going on. It is a matter of accountability for the public, who, as I have said a number of times, are paying for this programme through their bills. It is therefore right that if ever a situation arises in which a smart meter communication licensee administration is in place as a result of a failure of the DCC, that administration should operate in a way that is transparent, open and obvious to Members in all parts of the House and, most importantly, obvious and transparent to members of the public.

--- Later in debate ---

[Richard Harrington]

I thank the hon. Gentleman for that intervention. I can see that afterwards, but not in the course of an administration, when there are very complex duties for the administrator to learn, be instructed to learn, and so on. I find this proposal quite difficult in practice; I am quite concerned about the effects of it. I am not concerned about the purposes of it, which I think are very noble. Perhaps I will answer the hon. Gentleman’s question in my remarks in a way that is more satisfactory to him; I hope so, anyway. Perhaps it is a victory of hope over logic; I do not know, but we will see.

I confirm for the record that the object in clause 3 is to ensure that the DCC’s functions under its relevant licences are performed efficiently and economically, pending the rescue of the company or transfer of its business. However unlikely that might be, as we know its revenues are guaranteed, we are on the Government’s side, rather than the shadow Minister’s side, of the line on unlikeliness. The intention behind the clause is to ensure the continuity of the smart metering service while minimising the costs incurred. In providing for continuity of services, the benefits of smart meter services are maintained and the costs—financial costs, but also the huge inconvenience that would come from any interruption to smart meter services—are avoided. I do not mean an interruption to the supply of electricity; I am talking about the gauging of how much people are using and, I hope, in the future, more fancy tricks, to allow them to control their costs, supply and everything that we have mentioned before.

Under the Insolvency Act 1986, as modified by this Bill, there is already an obligation for the name of the smart meter communication administrator to be stated on the DCC website; it should also be stated that the affairs, business and property of the company are being managed by that administrator. There are clear provisions setting out the functions of a smart meter communication administrator, including its powers.

As with the energy network operator and energy supplier special administration regimes—the nearest comparable regimes—we would expect the smart meter communication licensee SAR rules to require the smart meter communication administrator to file various documents at Companies House. That would include, for example, a copy of the administrator’s proposals for achieving the objective of the smart meter communication licensee administration, which would contain information about the administration. The administrator has to submit regular progress reports. Once filed at Companies House, those documents would be available to the public and would keep them informed about the administration and its progress in the way that I hope the hon. Member for Norwich South meant in his question.

I hope that hon. Members will recognise that information would already be available to the public and other interested parties through the existing procedures to ensure transparency about the administration. I hope that they will consider the points that I have made, because they are important. This proposal implies that the administration process could be helped dramatically by the public’s having access to information and knowing what is going on all the way through. I think that it is very important that the public experience no interruption whatever and that the administration is carried out quickly and efficiently. We must not forget that the whole reason for the SAR is to reassure consumers and other stakeholders that their smart meter services and the benefits that arise will be protected, and not interrupted in any way.

I state again that the administrator would be under a duty to manage the company efficiently and economically. When companies such as KPMG, PwC and other big companies act as insolvency practitioners, they do so as part of a regulated profession. All normal insolvencies, and not just special administration regimes, are covered by that. I therefore ask the shadow Minister and the hon. Members for Birmingham, Selly Oak and for Warwick and Leamington to consider what I have said and to withdraw this very reasonable amendment. I fully commend the purpose behind the amendment, but I think we are already fulfilling that purpose in this provision and with the existing rules on administration.

[Steve McCabe]

It is a devastating blow to hear that the Minister cannot bring himself to accept the word “transparent”, but in the circumstances I do not think that we would gain very much by pressing this to a vote. I hope that the Minister will seriously reflect on what has been said, because the circumstances in which he would have to exercise this power would be a massive failure and, almost certainly, a massive loss to the public, and I do not think anyone would be comfortable thinking that there had been any attempt to hush that up or push it to one side. I hope that he will reflect very seriously on why it has been raised. I do not wish such a failure to occur at all, but I am very clear that if it did, I would be one of the first at the front of the queue saying, “What on earth went on here?” I do not think there would be any gain in pushing it, so I beg to ask leave to withdraw the amendment.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

Smart Meters Bill (Sixth sitting)

Debate between Steve McCabe and Lord Harrington of Watford

Committee Debate: 6th sitting: House of Commons
Tuesday 28th November 2017 Public Bill Committees

[Richard Harrington]

To continue with the comments of the hon. Member for Birmingham, Selly Oak: if British Gas was fined 10% of its turnover, in theory that would be passed on to its consumers. In practice, of course, that would make it so uncompetitive that all its consumers would move somewhere else. The purpose of these measures is not the fines; it is all the things that happen before the fines to make suppliers comply.

Technically, the hon. Gentleman’s point is correct: in theory, all costs go on to consumers, just as in general Government finances all Government expenditure goes on to the taxpayer. I do not think the point is that relevant, but I cannot disagree with what he said other than to say that the fines are not a tool for compliance; they are the ultimate response.

It is true that Ofgem administers the programme and the legal requirements are on it to take all reasonable steps to ensure that households and small businesses have smart meters. The fine is for Ofgem to decide. I remind the hon. Gentleman, before I move to the substance of the amendment, that we have to consider the net benefits as well as the costs. Every single consumer who has a smart meter is making savings on their bill from day one, so experience shows. The real prizes are for the future: the information the meter gives and the change in behavioural habits that happens surely make this worthwhile.

It is not appropriate or feasible to change the policy to move the cost on to the general taxpayer, but it is for us to monitor the situation carefully. With volume, the cost will go down. Compared with many other costs in the generation and supply of gas and electricity, the smart meter bill is quite small given the price of the physical SMETS 2 meter, which, as we have discussed in previous sessions of the Committee, is lower than the SMETS 1 meter’s, and given the cost of the installation and administration that goes with it, which is the same for SMETS 1 and SMETS 2.

I return to the specifics of the amendment. The Bill allows us to reclaim the administration costs that effectively come from the end user via the companies—that is true. It allows the Secretary of State to make such modifications to the licence conditions, where he considers it appropriate to do so, in connection with the special administration regime. The key point is that the clause requires the Secretary of State to consult affected licensees and such other persons as he considers appropriate prior to making modifications to licences. The licence modifications envisaged under this power have been drafted and a version has already been made available along with the explanatory notes to the Delegated Powers and Regulatory Reform Committee and to the public via the parliament.uk website.

The licence conditions try to allow the administration costs to be recouped from the industry insofar as there is a shortfall in the property available for meeting the costs. I accept that, in any business, recouping something from the industry involves recouping it from the customer in the end, which is the point I conceded to the hon. Member for Birmingham, Selly Oak. In the crudest sense, that is true of purchasing anything: the cost of the manufacturer, importer or distributor in any form of good or service is met in the end price. That is bad unless consumers have the choice and the ability to easily switch to a supplier that does not have that incumbence, as is the case here.

I have always envisaged that when we formally consult on those modifications in due course, the consultation will be published. If it is helpful to the hon. Member for Birmingham, Selly Oak, I am happy to provide him and everyone else with an undertaking that the consultation will be publicly available and addressed to the public, as well as to the other consultees involved. On the basis of that undertaking, I hope the hon. Gentleman will withdraw the amendment.

[Steve McCabe]

The Minister made a very helpful offer at the end. He says that every single consumer is making a saving, but I repeat that that is not true if the smart meter is in dumb mode. People are not making a saving in those circumstances.

--- Later in debate ---

[Richard Harrington]

I find myself in the rare position, in any Committee, of moving an amendment. I usually spend my time responding to amendments, but I shall do my best because these amendments and new clauses are important. They refer to half-hourly settlement.

Before I set out the detail of each new clause, I will, if I may, set out the broader context in which the proposals apply. Smart meters, as we have explained throughout the Committee stage, are a critical foundation for the development of a smart energy system, and provision of the relevant functionality is a core part of our programme. I explained on Second Reading, and have done so again since, my and the Government’s vision, which I think is commonly held: in time to come, when we consider history, the current roll-out of smart meters will be seen as a small part of that programme, providing individuals in their homes and small businesses with more flexibility and information. Everyone will accept that, in the modern age, the old-fashioned system of meters, which were predominantly read by estimation, with the gas or electricity man—they were men in those days—coming occasionally with their brown overalls and torch to do a reading, is totally unacceptable. Most people I speak to still have that system at home, despite the fact that everything else they have—their televisions and computers and so on—is of a completely different era.

Half-hourly billing will provide the platform for that kind of flexibility. I would not argue that people will suddenly wake up and think, “I’m going to change my electricity and gas all the time by pressing a button”, but I do foresee situations in which people will have that kind of flexibility, through their phones, and where they will subscribe to sophisticated services continually whizzing around the whole of the UK and beyond to find the cheapest point of any particular time of supply. That will allow people to choose when their appliances are switched on or off, when they are used, and whether they are necessary.

Under previous clauses we have talked a lot about the costs of smart meters and the administration—the DCC—which is basically the big software interface, but let us not forget that the idea is to reduce system costs by what I hope will be tens of billions of pounds by 2050. The Government’s smart systems and flexibility plan, published in July 2017, set out a number of actions that will build on the smart meter roll-out and deliver a smarter energy system for consumers. That includes the half-hourly settlement, which will help deliver benefits to both consumers and the energy system, by providing commercial incentives on the suppliers to develop and offer time-of-use tariffs, which they have not really had to face before.

As I have explained, such tariffs enable customers to choose, when energy is cheaper, to reduce their bills and the costs of the future energy system. That will help make the energy system more resilient, because as we move towards an increasingly low-carbon generation mix, people will want to make more of those kinds of choices. Smaller suppliers—I should not mention my supplier by name, but I am sure many of them do this—already enable people to tick a box electronically in order to choose to receive energy from a particular renewable source. That is a tiny part of the total array of options available to people, as is half-hourly billing.

Ofgem has already delivered changes to provide more cost-effective settlement arrangements for suppliers that want to offer those tariffs, but that is only the first step. We believe that moving to market-wide half-hourly settlements will help deliver the full benefits of the smart meter roll-out. A market-wide approach will also ensure that any necessary consumer protection can be implemented effectively.

[Steve McCabe]

This is a genuine inquiry born out of curiosity. The Minister is making a perfectly reasonable case. Why has the amendment been tabled at this stage, and why on earth did we not hear anything about the issue on Second Reading? The Minister is making a very good case—I am not disputing that—but it sounds like an afterthought. Could he explain how we have got into this position?

--- Later in debate ---

[Richard Harrington]

I fully accept the hon. Gentleman’s right to discuss the matter, and I did not suggest for a moment that he was doing wrong in bringing this forward, or placing it on the record—far from it. I am just saying that, from my point of view, this was acting upon advice, that it was perfectly proper to get something that I felt was very important. I believe that it has the support of—I hope—most Members in the House generally, because we all think that it is a very good thing. I am sorry that the hon. Gentleman feels as he does, but I thank him for accepting that it was done for the right reason. I believe, as he does, that parliamentary procedure is important.

These rules have evolved over centuries for reasons, and—quite rightly—neither I nor anyone else on behalf of the Government can get things in round the side, or bring in things that should never be. When we decided to introduce the amendment, I did have a meeting with the hon. Gentleman to explain it to him, I suppose in an official capacity but obviously not within a Bill Committee capacity, and he did explain his support generally for it. His points have been noted on the record. I hope that my response—which I do not think he found satisfactory—is also on the record.

The amendments support the move to a smarter, more flexible energy system. Half-hourly settlement billed directly on a smart metering platform is a central aspect of the smart systems and flexibility plan that was published in July. The proposals will allow Ofgem to take forward the reforms in a more streamlined way, and I thank the shadow Minister for his support for the substance of the amendments.

Amendment 17 agreed to.

Clause 11, as amended, ordered to stand part of the Bill.

New Clause 8

MODIFICATION OF ELECTRICITY CODES ETC: SETTLEMENT USING SMART METER INFORMATION

“‘(1) The Gas and Electricity Markets Authority (“the Authority”) may—

(a) modify a document maintained in accordance with an electricity licence, and

(b) modify an agreement that gives effect to such a document,

if the condition in subsection (2) is satisfied.

(2) The condition is that the Authority considers the modification necessary or desirable for the purposes of enabling or requiring half-hourly electricity imbalances to be calculated using information about customers’ actual consumption of electricity on a half-hourly basis.

(3) The power to make modifications under this section includes—

(a) power to make provision about the determination of amounts payable in connection with half-hourly electricity imbalances;

(b) power to remove or replace all of the provisions of a document or agreement;

(c) power to make different provision for different purposes;

(d) power to make incidental, supplementary, consequential or transitional modifications.

(4) A modification may not be made under this section after the end of the period of 5 years beginning with the day on which this section comes into force.

(5) In this section—

“balancing arrangements” means arrangements made by the transmission system operator for the purposes of balancing the national transmission system for Great Britain;

“electricity licence” means a licence under section 6(1) of the Electricity Act 1989;

“half-hourly electricity imbalance” means the difference between the amount of electricity consumed by an electricity supplier’s customers during a half-hour period and the amount of electricity purchased by the electricity supplier for delivery during that period, after taking into account any adjustments in connection with the supplier’s participation in balancing arrangements;

“supply”, in relation to electricity, has the same meaning as in Part 1 of the Electricity Act 1989 (see section 4(4) of that Act);

“transmission system” has the same meaning as in Part 1 of the Electricity Act 1989 (see section 4(4) of that Act);

“transmission system operator” means the person operating the national transmission system for Great Britain.”—(Richard Harrington.)

This new clause gives Ofgem power to modify documents maintained in accordance with an electricity licence, or agreements giving effect to such documents, so as to enable half-hourly electricity imbalances to be calculated using information obtained from smart meters.

Brought up, read the First and Second time, and added to the Bill.

New Clause 9

Modification under section(Modification of electricity codes etc: settlement using smart meter information)

“(1) Before making a modification under section(Modification of electricity codes etc: settlement using smart meter information), the Gas and Electricity Markets Authority (“the Authority”) must—

(a) publish a notice about the proposed modification,

(b) send a copy of the notice to the persons listed in subsection (2), and

(c) consider any representations made within the period specified in the notice about the proposed modification or the date from which it would take effect.

(2) The persons mentioned in subsection (1)(b) are—

(a) each relevant licence holder,

(b) the Secretary of State,

(c) Citizens Advice,

(d) Citizens Advice Scotland, and

(e) such other persons as the Authority considers appropriate.

(3) The period specified under subsection (1)(c) must be a period of not less than 28 days beginning with the day on which the notice is published.

(4) A notice under subsection (1) must—

(a) state that the Authority proposes to make a modification,

(b) set out the proposed modification and its effect,

(c) specify the date from which the Authority proposes that the modification will have effect, and

(d) state the reasons why the Authority proposes to make the modification.

(5) If, after complying with subsections (1) to (4) in relation to a modification, the Authority decides to make a modification, it must publish a notice about the decision.

(6) A notice under subsection (5) must—

(a) state that the Authority has decided to make the modification,

(b) set out the modification and its effect,

(c) specify the date from which the modification has effect,

(d) state how the Authority has taken account of any representations made in the period specified in the notice under subsection (1), and

(e) state the reason for any differences between the modification set out in the notice and the proposed modification.

(7) A notice under this section about a modification or decision must be published in such manner as the Authority considers appropriate for bringing it to the attention of those likely to be affected by the making of the modification or decision.

(8) Sections 3A to 3D of the Electricity Act 1989 (principal objective and general duties) apply in relation to the functions of the Authority under section (Modification of electricity codes etc: settlement using smart meter information) and this section with respect to modifications of documents maintained in accordance with electricity licences, and agreements giving effect to such documents, as they apply in relation to functions of the Authority under Part 1 of that Act.

(9) For the purposes of subsections (1) to (10) of section 5A of the Utilities Act 2000 (duty of Authority to carry out impact assessment), a function exercisable by the Authority under section (Modification of electricity codes etc: settlement using smart meter information) is to be treated as if it were a function exercisable by it under or by virtue of Part 1 of the Electricity Act 1989.

(10) The reference in subsection (8) to the functions of the Authority under section(Modification of electricity codes etc: settlement using smart meter information) includes a reference to the Authority’s functions under subsections (1) to (10) of section 5A of the Utilities Act 2000 as applied by subsection (9).

(11) In this section—

“electricity licence” has the meaning given in section (Modification of electricity codes etc: settlement using smart meter information);

“relevant licence holder” means, in relation to the modification of a document maintained under an electricity licence or an agreement that gives effect to such a document, the holder of a licence under which the document is maintained.”—(Richard Harrington.)

This new clause sets out the procedural requirements that apply to the exercise of the power under NC8.

Brought up, read the First and Second time, and added to the Bill.

New Clause 10

Date from which modifications of electricity licence conditions may have effect

“(1) The Electricity Act 1989 is amended in accordance with this section.

(2) In section 11A(9) (modifications of electricity licence conditions not to have effect less than 56 days from publication of decision to modify), at the end insert “, except as provided in section 11AA”.

(3) After that section insert—

“11AA Modification of conditions under section 11A: early effective date

(1) The date specified by virtue of section 11A(8) in relation to a modification under that section may be less than 56 days from the publication of the decision to proceed with the making of the modification if—

(a) the Authority considers it necessary or expedient for the modification to have effect before the 56 days expire,

(b) the purpose condition is satisfied,

(c) the consultation condition is satisfied, and

(d) the time limit condition is satisfied.

(2) The purpose condition is that the Authority considers the modification necessary or desirable for purposes described in section (Modification of electricity codes etc: settlement using smart meter information)(2) of the Smart Meters Act 2017 (enabling or requiring half-hourly electricity imbalances to be calculated using information about customers’ actual consumption of electricity on a half-hourly basis).

(3) The consultation condition is that the notice under section 11A(2) relating to the modification—

(a) stated the date from which the Authority proposed that the modification should have effect,

(b) stated the Authority’s reasons for proposing that the modification should have effect from a date less than 56 days from the publication of the decision to modify, and

(c) explained why, in the Authority’s view, that would not have a material adverse effect on any licence holder.

(4) The time limit condition is that the specified date mentioned in subsection (1) falls within the period of 5 years beginning on the day on which section (Modification of electricity codes etc: settlement using smart meter information) of the Smart Meters Act 2017 comes into force.”

(4) In paragraph 2 of Schedule 5A (procedure for appeals under section 11C: suspension of decision), after sub-paragraph (1) insert—

‘(1A) In the case of an appeal against a decision of the Authority which already has effect by virtue of section 11AA, the CMA may direct that the modification that is the subject of the decision—

(a) ceases to have effect entirely or to such extent as may be specified in the direction, and

(b) does not have effect, or does not have effect to the specified extent, pending the determination of the appeal.’”—(Richard Harrington.)

This new clause allows licence modifications under NC8 to become effective before 56 days have elapsed.

Brought up, read the First and Second time, and added to the Bill.

New Clause 1

Review of smart meter rollout targets

“(1) Within 3 months of this Act coming in to force, the Secretary of State must prepare and publish a report on the progress of the smart meter rollout and lay a copy of the report before Parliament.

(2) The report under subsection (1) shall consider—

(a) progress towards the 2020 completion target;

(b) smart meter installation cost;

(c) the number of meters operating in dummy mode;

(d) the overall cost to date of the DCC;

(e) the projected cost of the DCC; and

(f) such other matters as the Secretary of State considers appropriate.” —(Steve McCabe.)

This new clause would require the Secretary of State to publish details about the cost and progress of the smart meter roll out, with reference to the 2020 deadline.

Brought up, and read the First time.

[Steve McCabe]

I beg to move, That the clause be read a Second time.

--- Later in debate ---

[Richard Harrington]

They should be, and I will do everything to make sure that they are. Suppliers have to treat their customers fairly, and that means being transparent and accurate in their communications. Ofgem has been in touch with energy suppliers to remind them of their obligations. It has written to all suppliers about deemed appointments—one of the points she made—to make clear that they have to consider whether deemed appointments are appropriate. Ofgem have marked their card on that because they have to take into account the consumers’ circumstances, for example ability to communicate, whether they may have not got the letter, and more. While I know that the hon. Lady is speaking entirely in good faith and that there have been examples of that, Ofgem is on it, and I shall monitor it carefully, as well as the other points she raised.

There is a conflict between us all wanting smart meters to be installed, because we think it is of long-term benefit to everyone, and protecting people’s right not to have one if they do not want one, for whatever reason, and to be informed of that right. We are putting pressure on the energy companies to install more, in keeping with the targets; the hon. Lady is right about that. However, we do not want any of the mis-selling cases that were well publicised some years ago, of people knocking on doors and getting householders to change supplier on false pretences. While the intentions are much more noble in this case, and however much we might think it is a good thing to have smart meters, we certainly do not want any form of pressure or inappropriate behaviour to mislead people. I tell everyone that it is brilliant to have a smart meter, and hopefully most of us will, but it is not for everybody. People should not feel under any pressure, and they should only want to have one for the best reasons.

I can be accused of many things, but lack of enthusiasm is not one of them. This is a really important element of the modernisation of the country’s energy infrastructure. Supplier switching is good, and I have done it myself, but it is not the answer. It is a right and a good thing to do, but the answer lies in what the smart meters will produce. I keep coming back to that in my head. I will not go through the reasons for it again, because hon. Members have been patient all day and on other days.

I understand and welcome the appetite for information on progress. It is right for us, as parliamentarians, to want that, and it is right for the Government and the Department to want to give that. It is right that customers generally should know, from the general public to what one paper calls the chattering classes—in other words, people who write on it, comment on it and study it. The more knowledge they have, the more it is part of the smart meter revolution, and the more people who have smart meters do not think they are alone and do not listen to the stories I have been sent by constituents—scare stories from the United States, conspiracy theories that MI5 is listening through smart meters and that sort of thing.

[Steve McCabe]

What?!

[Richard Harrington]

I have my own protection officer, so I am not bothered about that kind of thing, but other people are.

The new clauses would require the Government to publish information on programme costs and benefits, as well as details of installation activity and whether meters are operating in smart mode. I would like to address those in turn, to the satisfaction of all hon. Members, and particularly the hon. Member for Birmingham, Selly Oak and the shadow Minister—I always refer to him by his official title, but he is the hon. Member for Southampton, Test.

The programme costs and benefits are dealt with in new clauses 1 and 11. The Government published their initial assessment in 2008. Since then, the Government have updated and published their cost-benefit analysis a number of times, including in 2014 and 2016. Those publications included quite detailed breakdowns of the costs and benefits of the programme, including the DCC cost, which has been discussed before, and the installation of smart meters.

While there have been changes in the estimated costs and benefits over the years as our evidence base has developed, the business case for smart meters has remained good value for money. The benefit-to-cost ratio has remained stable since 2011, at around £1.50 of benefit for every £1 invested. Our latest cost-benefit analysis, published in November 2016, outlines net benefits of the smart meter roll-out of £5.7 billion. It is easy to talk in billions, but that is quite a lot of money, whichever way we look at it.

Our approach on the smart metering programme has been to update the cost-benefit analysis when substantive new evidence on costs and benefits for the programme comes to light through our monitoring and tracking. For example, the most recent update in November 2016 replaced estimates in a number of areas, including meter asset costs and financing and installation costs, with actuals based on information obtained from industry. It is right that estimates are replaced with actuals as soon as we have the information for it.

The hon. Member for Birmingham, Selly Oak asked why costs increased between the 2014 and 2016 assessments. The difference was about 0.5%, which is £500 million. Again, lots of zeroes; not a number to make light of. The increase is roughly equivalent to changes in the cost of fossil fuels, which impacts the value of the energy savings in our assessment. That was really his point; he asked that question before and I found out the answer for him. It is a reasonable question to ask.

It is important to know that it is not common practice for Government policies and programmes to update their cost-benefit analysis regularly in this way, and certainly not beyond the assessment made to inform the panel’s policy decision. With smart meters, we have done so in order to provide the additional public information and transparency. This is such a major upgrade of our energy infrastructure and will be transformational for people when the programme evolves further.

We have no immediate plans to publish an upgraded cost-benefit analysis, but we are regularly monitoring costs and benefits and would certainly update our analysis if there were new or substantive evidence or changes in policy design. I would like to make it clear that if there were substantive changes in the evidence, of course we would. I hope we have a track record that demonstrates that, if and when such evidence emerges, we will update our assessment. We would be negligent if we did not, and I am sure we would be held to account. In addition, the Data Communications Company regularly publishes budgets and cost projections on its website.

In relation to the installation activity mentioned in new clauses 1 and 7, the Government regularly publish statistics on the progress of the smart metering roll-out. Independent official quarterly statistics on the progress of the smart meter roll-out by the large energy suppliers are published every quarter and have been since September 2013. They are a report on the number of smart and advanced meters installed, as well as the number of meters in operation at the end of a reporting quarter. In addition, a summary of annual roll-out progress for the calendar year of the roll-out is published every March. This captures performance of both small and large suppliers for the preceding calendar year. The number of smart meters operating in traditional mode can be determined from these reports, but I am happy to look at ways to express that more clearly, because I think, as my protection officer has requested, clear and accurate information is important for people. There is no reason to provide clouds of vagueness on this. It is in everybody’s interest to be clear.

[Steve McCabe]

The Minister is giving the Committee helpful information. Why, after 2014, did the Department abandon the progress reports that he is now proposing to reinstate? Was there an obvious explanation for that?

--- Later in debate ---

[Richard Harrington]

As per the practice that I started in discussing the previous group of amendments, before addressing the substantive point perhaps I could try to answer the hon. Lady’s questions. The sentiments expressed by my hon. Friend the Member for Stirling are right—this issue is a double-edged sword. The very people that the hon. Lady described, who have children coming home and need to get the tea on, might also have a choice about when to do their washing and such things. The smart meter and the information that comes from it, can help as well as hinder people in those circumstances.

The choice of which tariffs to accept, even with the smartest of smart meters, will remain entirely with the customer. Smart meters facilitate time-of-use tariffs, which can influence demand and help to shift consumption away from peak times—that is a good thing—but they will also give people a choice that they do not have now. At the moment, if someone does not have the meter to give them the information, they cannot take an informed decision. Based on conversations I have had, I expect that suppliers will develop and offer new, smart, time-of-use tariffs that will be attractive to most consumers and help them to realise their benefits.

I accept the hon. Lady’s core point—people must be aware of the choices available, and they must be the type of customer that can take advantage of that choice. If their only function, apart from basic lighting and heating, is to hugely increase their use of electricity at a certain time because of cooking and children coming home, I accept that such a tariff would not be suitable for them. People must have the information to take that decision. I think I have laboured the point, but the hon. Lady raises an interesting issue that is not at all unreasonable —that is what I would expect, given her other consumer-based questions.

I shall try to deal briefly with the new clause in the spirit in which it was meant. Should the Secretary of State commission an independent review of public awareness and satisfaction of the roll-out? That is what is being asked. In answering, perhaps I should outline our approach to smart meter and consumer engagement in our programme up until now. It is set out formally in the programme’s consumer engagement strategy, which was published in December 2012, and it was based on extensive consultation and evidence gathering, as well as polling and market research. Although energy suppliers are at the forefront of installing smart meters, it was recognised that their consumer engagement would benefit from support by a central body that was independent of them and Government. We heard evidence from a representative of that body—Smart Energy GB—which enables consumers throughout the country to get consistent messages from a single simple campaign, rather than from multiple suppliers who are jumping over one another to get customers.

Both Smart Energy GB and the energy suppliers therefore have a role. The energy suppliers have the primary consumer engagement role, because they have the main contact with customers—they are who customers get their bills from and have their contracts with. Smart Energy GB, which is an independent, not-for-profit organisation, leads a national awareness and advertising programme to drive the behavioural change that the hon. Member for Birmingham, Selly Oak mentioned and to help consumers to benefit from smart metering.

The energy supply licence conditions require that Smart Energy GB assists consumers on low incomes or with prepayment meters. Bill Bullen explained in our evidence session that that is his main market. That is really good—it is to those consumers’ advantage and I hope it is to his commercial advantage, too. From what he said, he seems to have done a good job of it.

That two-pronged approach has increased awareness of smart metering from 40% to 80% of consumers in three years, and it has driven a lot of demand. A recent survey of 10,000 people from all demographics and all parts of Great Britain showed that 49% of people would like to get a smart meter in six months. The campaign is resonating with people all over the country. Independent audits of Smart Energy GB show that two in three people recall its campaign. That is actually quite a lot in advertising. Findings from the latest “Smart energy outlook”, the independent barometer of national public opinion, show that detailed knowledge of smart metering is high—in some cases higher than in the general population—among groups that we might consider to have vulnerabilities, such as elderly people.

But nobody underestimates the challenge—I absolutely do not. We get a lot of information from Smart Energy GB. Suppliers share their information with it and with us, because it is in everyone’s interests to do so. They are transparent about their activities, both because it is in their interests and because they are required by law to publish an annual report outlining their performance against targets, alongside an updated consumer engagement plan. All that is available to the public via the internet and the usual channels.

As recently as August, the Government published the findings of external research that we commissioned on consumer experience of smart metering. We will produce further findings from ongoing fieldwork in the next few months. Our evidence to date shows that consumer satisfaction with smart meters is high. Some 80% of consumers are satisfied with them and 7% are dissatisfied. That information is all publicly available. Interestingly—I know that vulnerability is of interest to every Committee member, but particularly to the hon. Member for North Ayrshire and Arran—there was higher satisfaction among prepayment respondents, who are much more likely to be vulnerable consumers.

I support the positive intention behind the new clause. The Government really have to consider how consumer engagement can be better reflected in annual reports, which have to be consumer-facing as well as Parliament-facing. I am not quite sure about the answer, but that needs to be considered in detail. On balance, though, I consider that the requirements of the new clause are well met by existing arrangements. I promise that I do not say that through complacency. I have explained about external research agencies, and Smart Energy GB, which is independent, continually reviews consumer engagement. A review is therefore not needed at this stage—not because we do not intend to do that or because it does not need to be done, but because it would duplicate existing activities and would not represent good value for money. I hope that the hon. Member for Birmingham, Selly Oak will withdraw the motion.

[Steve McCabe]

The Minister has persuaded me. I am happy to beg to ask leave to withdraw the motion.

Clause, by leave, withdrawn.

New Clause 3

Ownership restrictions to successor licensees

“(1) The Secretary of State may impose conditions on to the future DCC successor licensee as appropriate.

(2) Conditions in subsection (1) may include restrictions to British owned companies subject to the expiry of any contrary obligations under EU or retained EU law, as defined in the EU (Withdrawal) Act 2018.”—(Dr Whitehead.)

This new clause allows the Secretary of State to restrict future DCC successor licensees to British owned companies.

Brought up, and read the First time.

Smart Meters Bill (Third sitting)

Debate between Steve McCabe and Lord Harrington of Watford

Committee Debate: 3rd sitting: House of Commons
Thursday 23rd November 2017 Public Bill Committees

[Richard Harrington]

I repeat that it is absolutely to extend the Secretary of State’s powers. I was going to mention the 2023 issue and the reason for that. In fact, I scribbled myself a note to answer the hon. Gentleman’s comments about it. So as not to repeat my own scrawl—in fact, I will repeat my scrawl later, because I cannot remember where I put the note.

On the 2023 issue, a lot of things in the powers are not about the targets. Richard Milhous Nixon, whose biography I have just been reading, said, “If you’ve got them by the balls, their hearts and minds will follow.” I do not know if that is unparliamentary; if it is, I apologise. We could easily say, “That’s it; we will leave those powers, because then they will do it”, but that is not what is happening. I am not a fan of Richard Milhous Nixon, for those who might think that, but it struck me that that often in life, that is why people do things.

A lot of things in the powers that are needed will be involved in winding up. I will cover them a little bit later. I do not think it would be possible for any organisation to suddenly give a date—31 December or November or whatever—when the powers run out and that is it. A lot of the things involved go beyond the target. The targets are made with the suppliers. It was asked what happens if suppliers do not do this. There are powers to fine; the regulator has powers to fine suppliers, from memory—if I am wrong by a bit, I will correct the record—10% of turnover if they do not comply with the agreed targets.

[Steve McCabe]

Will the Minister give way on that point?

[Richard Harrington]

Go on—I cannot resist the hon. Gentleman.

[Steve McCabe]

It is a very simple question. The Minister says the regulator has those powers, but is there any evidence that they have been exercised?

[Richard Harrington]

They have not needed to be yet, but they are there. The hon. Gentleman does not mention—no one has given any credit for this—the 7 million smart meters that have been installed. That is quite a lot of smart meters. I have seen the programme that has been put out, and having spoken to so many of the companies and organisations involved, I am satisfied that it is a realistic target. I had better make some progress; I will not be able to address his amendment properly unless I do.

For me, this is the most significant thing that has happened in electricity, but also in power supply to homes, since Edison or whoever it was—hon. Members will have to excuse me; it is a long time since I did it at school.

--- Later in debate ---

[Richard Harrington]

I know we have four more days, but I would like to make progress on this particular point, although I will give an example that might be acceptable to the hon. Gentleman. As an example, it may be necessary to create new licensable activities to ensure that all premises can secure a home area network if that cannot currently be achieved. Technology develops, as do apps, different systems and inventions. It is for us to be able to act quickly so that there is flexibility for the consumer to take advantage of all those things.

Our current explanation is that we may know when solutions are appropriate and viable for these premises only towards the end of 2020 or even in early 2021. I must say, clearly, that we would use this power only after going through the normal policy development process, including consulting relevant stakeholders. I feel that I have done my best to make that point. It is for us to show leadership in this matter. The decisions taken up to now have driven this momentum, and whatever has been said on cynicism about the targets, the installation volumes are increasing dramatically and it is important that we can keep a robust regulatory framework that enables the delivery of the benefits.

It is vital that this work can continue and that the Secretary of State retains the powers available to him to direct the efficient delivery of the roll-out. I am sure that hon. Members will take these points into consideration, other than the target itself, which we have discussed. The last thing that hon. Members want is a cliff edge—they argue against cliff edges many times on the Floor of the Chamber—and the last thing that we want in this case is a cliff edge. I hope that the hon. Gentleman will find these arguments reassuring and that he will feel able to withdraw his amendment

[Steve McCabe]

I am conscious of the time, but I want to be dead straight: I did not find that particularly reassuring, if I am honest. If hon. Members look through Hansard, they will find that I raised a number of questions that have not really been answered at all. As I said at the outset, the amendment was intended as a probing amendment, so I do not intend to push it to a vote at this stage. I recognise that the Minister is very sincere in his approach to this matter, but will he reflect on some of the points that have been made during this part of the debate? Perhaps at a later stage in Committee or in the Bill’s progress, he will see whether he can be a bit more persuasive with the quality of the answers that he provides. I beg to ask leave to withdraw the amendment.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

Ordered, That further consideration be now adjourned. —(Mike Freer.)

Smart Meters Bill (Fourth sitting)

Debate between Steve McCabe and Lord Harrington of Watford

Committee Debate: 4th sitting: House of Commons
Thursday 23rd November 2017 Public Bill Committees

[Richard Harrington]

I want to make the answer very precise, so I would prefer to write to the hon. Gentleman about the consultation, if that is acceptable, rather than give him a vague answer that does not have the precision he deserves.

[Steve McCabe]

As I said at the outset, the amendment’s purpose was to explore this problem and to help Members to get a better understanding of interoperability. A question mark hangs in the air about how successful the SMETS 2 roll-out will be and what the problems will be if we end up with a lot of SMETS 1 meters installed but no longer counted in the Government’s target or, as my hon. Friend the Member for Southampton, Test said, with a hiatus in which there are no meters available. The amendment’s purpose was to explore that point.

The Minister has done his best to explain where he stands. I am not sure that we have reached complete agreement on that, if I am truthful with him, but he has done his best and it would not serve any useful purpose to force the amendment to a Division. That would be a wrecking amendment, which is not my intention, and I am grateful for what he said. I ask him to continue to reflect on this issue, which will be central to the roll-out programme and needs to be considered. However, I beg to ask leave to withdraw the amendment.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

--- Later in debate ---

[Richard Harrington]

I actively disagree with the hon. Gentleman. I accept the problem—whether it is 4%, 20% or the numbers that have been talked about that do not work—but I do not view that as an aspect of market failure. In my submission, market failure would mean the charge being 400% or 500% of the cost of manufacture. I regard it as a failure, but a technical failure that we hope will be changed within months by the operability technical changes, as I explained. I understand what the hon. Gentleman means, but I do not regard it as market failure. My contention is that the regulation of the supply, or the ability to regulate, as the hon. Member for Birmingham, Selly Oak mentioned, would not have made a difference to the technical failure side of it.

[Steve McCabe]

I just want to clarify what the Minister said, in case I misheard him. I think he said it is not a market failure but a technical failure, which within months we hope to address. As I pointed out earlier, his Department’s position is that it is meant to be addressed by the end of this year. In fact, I asked him if he would produce the plan by the end of the Committee. Is the Minister now revising that timescale? Is that what he is telling us?

[Richard Harrington]

I used the expression “within months” as a figure of speech; I apologise for that.

[Steve McCabe]

I just want to be clear.

[Richard Harrington]

It is a very fair point. I did not do it as a way of pulling back on what I said before, I promise. The point I want to make is that the Government do not believe it necessary to make provision to require MAPs, as asset providers, to be licensed because the competition is working and providing good value to energy consumers.

Away from the Committee, the hon. Gentleman and I had a discussion on meter disposal, and I have given it considerable thought. This is not an excuse, but the responsibility for disposal lies with the Secretary of State for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs. I have not discussed this issue with the Secretary of State, or in fact anything to do with general disposal issues, particularly not gas and electricity meters.

If the hon. Gentleman will bear with me, I suggest that we hold a roundtable with DEFRA and BEIS officials, himself and the shadow Minister, if he is prepared to come—I hope he will—so that we can discuss this. It is not something I can give a short answer to; it is much more complex than I first thought. Having made both those points, I would be delighted if the hon. Gentleman agreed to withdraw his amendment.

Smart Meters Bill (First sitting)

Debate between Steve McCabe and Lord Harrington of Watford

Committee Debate: 1st Sitting: House of Commons
Tuesday 21st November 2017 Public Bill Committees

[Richard Harrington]

Q Thanks to both of you for coming this morning. May I ask Ofgem, in particular, what you are doing to ensure energy suppliers deliver their obligations?

Rob Salter-Church: I might first explain the role of Ofgem and the Government in the roll-out, because that sets out the context for answering that question. To be clear, the roll-out of smart metering is Government policy. The Government have powers, and one of the parts of the Bill we are considering today is to extend their power to put in place the licence arrangements around smart metering. Ofgem’s role is to oversee suppliers and DCC compliance with the policy framework that the Government have put in place.

We are hugely supportive of smart metering, and we think it has real potential to improve consumers’ outcomes. Through regular engagement with suppliers, we are overseeing their compliance with their licence obligations. We do that through regular bilateral engagements, gathering significant information from suppliers and working in partnership with Citizens Advice and the energy ombudsman to gather information about consumers’ experience of smart metering.

We use the data we gather to hold suppliers to account, challenge them and make sure they are doing what they are required to do in terms of installing smart metering—adhering to their roll-out plans and, perhaps more importantly, delivering a good-quality installation, providing energy-efficiency advice to consumers when they do that and making sure consumers are aware of how they can realise the benefits of smart metering.

We have a range of tools in our toolkit that we can use to secure supplier compliance. Ultimately, if we feel that a supplier is not doing what they need to do to stick to the rules and make the programme a success, we can take enforcement action against them—a process that enables us to levy a fine against that organisation if it is failing to meet what is required of them.

[Steve McCabe]

Q I notice that it says in your written evidence that you see a significant benefit for consumers, and you have repeated that. How will the benefit be realised? What are the practicalities? How will it be realised for the most vulnerable customers—the elderly and the most disadvantaged? How will we see that, and what kind of timescale are we talking about?

Rob Salter-Church: There is a whole range of benefits that consumers—including vulnerable consumers and those on prepayment meters—can get. One of the key ways in which consumers can benefit from smart meters is through being in control and having access to real-time information about their energy usage and what it is costing them. Many people, including vulnerable people, are often worried about getting an unexpected bill—having a bill shock that they are unable to meet—and falling into debt. One of the great things about smart meters is that they give real-time information so people are in control and can manage their energy usage to prevent those kinds of issues from arising.

Another benefit that will accrue to all people, but may well have particular relevance for more vulnerable customers, is the end to estimated billing. They will know exactly what they are being billed and will be able to make sure they are not being over-billed by their supplier.

The last thing I will say is about prepayment meters. Smart metering has the potential to absolutely transform the realities of energy for prepayment customers. People will no longer have to go out in the rain to go down to the shop to put credit on their meter; they will be able to very simply and easily top up the meter when they need to. The functionality also enables suppliers to help customers manage their energy usage. For example, rather than running out of credit overnight, the smart meter technology allows the supplier to offer services to customers that enable them to have a small amount of energy to ensure that the heating and lights are still on in the morning. Those kind of quality of service benefits are huge, and they should accrue to customers through the point at which they get a meter installed.

Immigration

Debate between Steve McCabe and Lord Harrington of Watford

Monday 19th October 2015 Westminster Hall

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Refugees (Richard Harrington)]

It is an honour and a pleasure to speak under your chairmanship, Mr Walker. I am sorry that I did not have the chance to say the same to my hon. Friend the Member for Brigg and Goole (Andrew Percy), who after a long stint in the Chair presumably had to leave to enjoy some refreshments.

I thank my hon. Friend the Member for Sutton and Cheam (Paul Scully) for serving on the Petitions Committee and for leading this debate as he did. I also thank all hon. Members who have contributed to the debate; I am delighted to say that every single person who has spoken, without exception, has rejected the petition’s wording. That did not surprise me. I hope that the person who started the petition will realise that within the House of Commons there is no one—not one person, I assume—who agrees with them; if there were, they would have come and spoken. I am pleased about that. I am glad to have the opportunity to have this debate but I personally found the wording of the petition simplistic and, I am afraid to say, quite offensive.

It is clear that controlling immigration is a topic of significant public interest and I suspect that many of the people who signed the petition did so because they believe it is an important matter rather than because they agreed with the wording of the petition; I hope I am right in saying that. Similarly, I welcome the opportunity to debate the wider topic of immigration, but it is a shame that that has been under the umbrella of this particular petition. I know that people know this, but the Government totally disagree with the sentiments of the petition. In particular, we reject the idea that anyone is trying to turn this country into a Muslim country or any other type of country that it is not. I note in particular the comments from my constituency neighbour, my hon. Friend the Member for St Albans (Mrs Main), who rejected completely the horrible implication of the wording that being Muslim or supporting Islam is something that in any way contradicts being British. I support her view.

I offer my commiserations to the hon. Member for Cumbernauld, Kilsyth and Kirkintilloch East (Stuart C. McDonald), who cannot point to any immigrants in his family history. Perhaps that is one reason why he supports independence for Scotland; if he has any English ancestors, he would be able to say that he came from immigrants like the rest of us. In all seriousness, I thank him for his contribution and agree with most of what he said.

I can say with some pride that I have immigrants on both sides of my family. My father’s family were refugees from the Spanish Inquisition and came here, via Holland, in the time of Oliver Cromwell. My great-grandparents on my mother’s side were immigrants from Russia and Poland; in fact, my earliest political conversation was when my late grandmother told me I should always vote Liberal Democrat—actually, she said I should vote Liberal, as she was talking about a time before the Liberal Democrats—because Gladstone, when Prime Minister, brought in the legislation that allowed refugees from persecution to come to this country. I place on the record that I did not take her advice.

In all seriousness, we are proud of the fact that the UK is, without any doubt, a multiracial democracy—I do not know what else it could be called. Most sensible people will be proud of that. It is a tribute to us that more and more people from abroad want to come to the UK, because of the economy, strong family ties and our world-class education system. I commend what the hon. and learned Member for Holborn and St Pancras (Keir Starmer) said, but in response to his remarks about students I should point out that the most recent figures for the numbers of students coming here show a 4% increase, year on year. The Government’s reforms with regard to foreign students removed the large number of completely fraudulent so-called schools and colleges. The numbers of students coming to this country has increased.

Everyone would agree that we have a proud history of protecting those most in need. The Prime Minister announced to Parliament at the beginning of last month our agreement to resettle 20,000 vulnerable people from the Syrian crisis. I should make it clear that that agreement is about vulnerable people. Some are currently in camps, but they are mainly outside camps. The majority of refugees in Jordan and in Lebanon, in particular, are living in tents in fields, not in camps; that is also the case for a lot of refugees in Turkey.

We have agreed to resettle 20,000 of those people during the course of this Parliament. They are being selected on the grounds of vulnerability. Among the many good points that my hon. Friend the Member for Sutton and Cheam made in his opening remarks, he mentioned his concern about selecting people who came under false pretences as refugees. We are doing everything we can. We are using the United Nations High Commissioner for Refugees, the International Organisation for Migration, which is very experienced about migration, Home Office and other tests to make sure that those people are selected using the United Nations definition of vulnerability. There is no automatic selection.

[Steve McCabe]

I appreciate that this issue is not the central point of the debate, but although I have no problem with attempts to assess and process those vulnerable people—most folk would agree with that—the Government will need to take about 380 to 400 people a month to meet their own target of 20,000. Given that those vulnerable people are in the camps he has described, and winter is almost upon us, when can we expect to see some of them settled here?

[Richard Harrington]

I suspect that the hon. Gentleman has been watching the recording of the sitting of the Home Affairs Committee last week; the Chair of that Committee brought up the same point and asked me repeatedly to come up with an actual number. I do not think that giving a running commentary is correct but, as the Prime Minister mentioned today on the Floor of the House, we intend to have settled 1,000 people by the end of the year. It is difficult to average it out on a month-by-month basis, although the numbers per month would be what the hon. Gentleman said.

I am confident that we can do it, but am wary of the pitfalls. Some were mentioned by my hon. Friend the Member for Sutton and Cheam, such as people coming fraudulently, but we must also have the proper preparations for when people get here. Those will include having housing, the correct medical care for both mental and physical health issues, education where appropriate and English lessons, which are very important.

I commend those local authorities that have helped us with resettling the smaller numbers of people we have resettled so far. I visited Bradford; the council there—a Labour council, the hon. Member for Birmingham, Selly Oak (Steve McCabe) will be pleased to hear—and its leader, Councillor David Green, really are a model for other councils in what they have done for the refugees they have taken. I also commend the response from the Scottish Government and local authorities in Scotland. Generally, the response has been pretty good and we are confident that, at the moment, the number of places being offered is broadly commensurate with the numbers of people. Very many small local authorities have emailed to say that they would be happy to take refugees. That is a credit to this country and all parts of it, although while we very much appreciate what has been said by some of the smaller Scottish islands, in some cases the offers may not be practical. That makes no difference to the validity of those authorities’ comments, however.

The Government recognise the significant migratory pressures on the UK. Immigration puts pressure on public services. It can damage our labour market and push down wages—all points that, as my hon. Friend the Member for Lewes (Maria Caulfield) said so eloquently in her speech, worry constituents. She mentioned the Brighton main line, which I know is very typical. However, she also mentioned that in parts of her constituency there are critical shortages of labour. In the past, as my hon. Friend the Member for St Austell and Newquay (Steve Double) mentioned with regard to Cornwall, labour shortages have been met with willing, able, hard-working and decent immigrants. The issue is therefore very complex.

There have been many really decent speeches. The hon. Member for Glenrothes (Peter Grant)—I will get into trouble for my pronunciation of his constituency’s name.