Finance (No. 4) Bill

Debate between Stephen Williams and Jacob Rees-Mogg

Monday 16th April 2012 Commons Chamber

[Stephen Williams]

Yes. I welcome my hon. Friend’s intervention. When I met representatives of the Federation of Small Businesses, they were particularly keen that that measure should be introduced in the Budget and they are no doubt very pleased that the Government have responded to their representations and those made by hon. Members, such as my hon. Friend, on its behalf.

The anti-avoidance measures in the Budget and the Bill are also very much welcomed by the Liberal Democrats, particularly the consultation on introducing a general anti-avoidance and anti-abuse role based on the paper prepared for the Treasury by Graham Aaronson. We will need to wait until the next Finance Bill to see how that pans out. There are also specific anti-avoidance measures in the Bill, such as those to tackle the use of envelope schemes by corporate bodies and unincorporated bodies to acquire properties while avoiding stamp duty. That abuse was overlooked for far too long by the previous Administration and I am delighted that the coalition Government are tackling it head on.

Other more controversial potential abuses are being tackled in the Bill through the limits on tax reliefs that individuals are able to claim. Before the Budget, the Deputy Prime Minister talked about a tycoon tax. Across the Atlantic, President Obama has been talking about a minimum rate of tax, such as 30%, that US citizens should be expected to pay, and Warren Buffett has been making very similar points. We have many reliefs available in our tax code in this country to encourage enterprise, such as the enterprise management incentive scheme, the enterprise investment scheme and the venture capital schemes of which, in my life before 2005, I used to help many businesses and entrepreneurs to take advantage.

The Bill provides another relief, the seed enterprise investment relief, but all the reliefs available at the moment are capped. They are limited as regards both time and the amount that can be put into them, and therefore the amount of tax relief—whether it is on income tax or capital gains tax—that a wealthy individual might be able to obtain. That leaves various uncapped reliefs that are available under our tax code for income tax losses, loan interest and, of course, philanthropy, which is where a lot of the controversy has come about in recent weeks.

From the outset, it is right to say that the extension of restrictions and caps on reliefs, whether they are on gifts to charity or loss reliefs, is entirely logical. When restrictions are imposed on existing reliefs, such as gift aid, the Government and the Treasury must take greater care than when they are imposing reliefs from the outset for a new scheme, such as the seed scheme. The Government and the Chancellor have already said that they intend to work very closely with the charitable sector on the introduction of the restriction on gift aid, and I hope that that will lead to a measure that meets the Government’s objectives of protecting our tax base while ensuring that philanthropy can continue.

It is important, however, to say that, contrary to much of the coverage that we have read about and that constituents have written to us about, the restriction on reliefs is not the same as the abolition of reliefs. The phrase “charities tax”, which has been bandied around the Chamber this afternoon, has left hanging in the air the implication that the Government are somehow withdrawing tax relief from philanthropic activities altogether. That is simply not true. An individual will still be able to donate and receive tax relief on the higher of £50,000 or a quarter of their annual income. Some of us might dream of this, given the salaries that we are on, but if we had an annual income of £1 million, we could still donate £250,000 to charity while receiving full tax relief. I understand from figures that I have seen from the Charities Aid Foundation that the median donation that our constituents make is about £11 a year, so very few people will be affected by what the Government have proposed. It is right that such details should be closely considered by the Treasury and by all of us, as parliamentarians, to ensure that they work.

There are various things that the Government could do. The limits are annual and perhaps they could consider rolling up the annual limits. If you, Mr Deputy Speaker, were to win £1 million on the lottery, you would not be able to donate an amount to charity under the Bill’s provisions while getting tax relief and while, more importantly, the charity got the gift aid matching relief, too. That would be an absurd anomaly and I am sure that it was not intentional.

[Jacob Rees-Mogg]

My hon. Friend talks about someone winning £1 million on the national lottery but a £1 million win on the national lottery is not taxable; one ought not to get tax relief on a gain that is not taxable.

[Stephen Williams]

I am trying to think whether my hon. Friend has caught me out on a provision, but I am not sure that he has. The reason there has to be a £50,000 limit on relief is that most people who give large amounts of money do so out of their accumulated wealth and their asset base, which may have come from a lottery win or from an inheritance. It is likely to be a one-off event in their life when they receive a large amount of money and philanthropically decide to give much of it away. It would be absurd if the charity was not able to claim higher rate income tax relief if the individual who received that one-off legacy or windfall gain was not able to claim gift relief.

Parliamentary Voting System and Constituencies Bill

Debate between Stephen Williams and Jacob Rees-Mogg

Wednesday 16th February 2011 Commons Chamber

[Stephen Williams]

I thank the hon. Gentleman, who is my Political and Constitutional Reform Committee colleague, for that intervention, but I think he can predict my answer. What disturbs me about the response from their Lordships last night is that it ignores the will of the elected House. Our fellow Select Committee colleague, the hon. Member for Epping Forest (Mrs Laing), got that balance exactly right.

The Welsh Assembly election in 2003 had a turnout of only 38%. I ask my Labour friend, the hon. Member for Rhondda (Chris Bryant), who is an ally in arguing for a yes vote should we have the referendum in Wales, does he really think the Government of Rhodri Morgan who were elected in 2003 had no validity because only 38% of his constituents turned out? Does the right hon. Member for Manchester, Gorton (Sir Gerald Kaufman) think the Labour administration of Manchester city council, elected on a 27% turnout in 2008, has no legitimacy whatever? That same question could be asked of Sheffield with 36%, or Leeds—a Liberal Democrat-Conservative coalition—with 35.7%.

[Jacob Rees-Mogg (North East Somerset) (Con)]

In general elections the turnout is normally 70% or more. Is it right that that 70% of people should have their voting system changed by fewer than 40%?