Voting Age

Debate between Stephen Williams and Bob Stewart

Thursday 24th January 2013 Commons Chamber

[Stephen Williams]

It is interesting how colleagues across the Chamber are neatly anticipating in their interventions the next points I will be making. We have never had an electoral competence test in this country, although I have heard people advocate one. We have all, I am sure, been canvassing and been outside the shopping centre or even the school gate, and rolled our eyes or walked down the path in despair after hearing opinions that may not have been that well informed from people in their 40s, 50s and 60s. We would never say that the franchise should be withheld from people just because they are stubborn in their opinions or have got a fact completely wrong. We do not have an electoral competence test for people aged 18 and over, so we should not apply it to those aged 16 and 17. Were we to have such a test, I think 16 and 17-year-olds would pass it with flying colours, but I could not have the same confidence for people who are much older than them.

[Bob Stewart (Beckenham) (Con)]

I have been in command of soldiers aged 16 and 17 who are desperate to go on operations but are not allowed to because this country considers them still to be children. The hon. Gentleman is suggesting that a 16-year-old should be able to vote—presumably to send our soldiers to war— but cannot go to war themselves until they are 18. Extraordinary!

[Stephen Williams]

I do not think it is extraordinary. As I said earlier to the hon. Gentleman’s colleague, the hon. Member for Harlow (Robert Halfon), I have no problem with having different ages for different rights and responsibilities. Some people disagree with me about that and want 16 to be the common age, but that is not the position I hold.

Finance (No. 4) Bill

Debate between Stephen Williams and Bob Stewart

Monday 16th April 2012 Commons Chamber

[Stephen Williams]

I welcome my hon. Friend’s addressing the fact that the tax system should be fair in how different individuals get relief for an activity that is to be encouraged. Perhaps the relief on pension contributions ought to be seen in the same light but I think that would be controversial among many of his colleagues. I suppose that the basic principle of gift aid relief, tax relief and what can be recovered by a charity relates to one’s net income and the money that one no longer has. It therefore has to be grossed up by the rate of tax that has already been taken off one’s income before one chose to give that money to someone else. That is the basic underlying logic.

[Bob Stewart (Beckenham) (Con)]

My problem is that I do not quite understand how it works so perhaps my hon. Friend will correct me. If a philanthropist gives a huge amount of money to a charity, does that mean that he or she chooses who they give the money to and that the only loser is the Exchequer because it does not get tax on that? It is difficult but I rather like the fact that a philanthropist can give all that money and choose what happens to his or her money and that the Exchequer is the only loser. Am I wrong or is that his understanding?

[Stephen Williams]

I intended to give a speech on the Bill this evening rather than a broad-ranging tutorial on how the tax system works, but yes my hon. Friend is broadly correct. The basic premise of philanthropy is that one chooses of one’s own free will to whom one gives one’s money, but one gives from one’s net income and the money available—that is all one has to make that donation. The gift aid system therefore works so that the tax that has been deducted from that income already is put back in place and the charity receives that benefit.

I wish to make a second suggestion about how this restriction could be addressed. Perhaps a better way of looking at it would be to exempt large gifts to certain institutions such as universities. My right hon. Friend the Business Secretary has rightly expressed concern about the effect on the alumni fundraising programmes of our universities. The Russell group universities are particularly active in raising funds from members of their alumni such as myself, although I do not think I would be caught by these provisions. Gifts to other institutions such as Cancer Research UK and national institutions and museums such as the National Gallery could also be exempted. Perhaps we need to look again at the Charities Act 2006 and the public benefit test to see which activities and donations are generally of a philanthropic nature and which may fall into the grey area. It may be an individual’s personal choice to donate to a particular cause but that cause might not be something of wider public benefit that deserves tax relief. Whatever system we come up with, whether it is what is proposed in a dry sense in the Finance Bill or one that takes on board the suggestions that I and others will no doubt make as the Bill progresses, it must support genuine philanthropic activity.

My final point is on the rather obscure clause 180, which it will probably take us some time to reach in Committee. It relates to controlled foreign companies and how the UK is changing the taxation basis for companies with activities abroad. The primary duty of the UK Government, and indeed of Members of the House of Commons, is to safeguard United Kingdom taxpayers, and we must always think about that whenever we debate these issues, but we also have a duty to make sure that our Government’s policies are joined up. At a time when despite decreases in budgets elsewhere we are increasing the budget of the Department for International Development, it would be perverse if DFID had to give developing countries more support because of the adverse effects of the tax changes we are making in this country. We cannot address all those aspects now, and we shall look at them again in Committee, but I hope we can find a way of measuring their effects and supporting overseas tax authorities more effectively to collect their tax liabilities so that they are not adversely affected by changes we are making to our basis for taxation.

I said that I wanted to make a short speech. We have long debates ahead of us over several days, both in the Chamber and in Committee. When the dust has settled on the Budget and it passes into the annals of history, despite everything that hon. Members have rightly mentioned today—whether pasties or caravans—I think it will be remembered for the huge increase in personal allowances that raised millions of people out of taxation and provided a broad cut in income tax for millions more. That is the radical measure in the Budget; it is something I am very proud of and it is why I shall support the Bill this evening.