Northern Ireland (Welfare Reform) Bill

Debate between Stephen Pound and Lord Coaker

Monday 23rd November 2015 Commons Chamber

[Vernon Coaker]

I thank all the hon. Members who have contributed to the debate. I will start with the comments of the hon. Member for Fermanagh and South Tyrone (Tom Elliott) who was asked to join in a tribute to David Trimble. It is important that we remember those giants of history who have contributed to where we are now. In a very decent way, the hon. Gentleman went on to talk about John Hume, another giant who helped Northern Ireland to progress to where we are at present. The hon. Member for Strangford (Jim Shannon) talked about the announcement made by Peter Robinson at the weekend. I had the privilege of speaking to Peter for a few minutes on Saturday. He is another man who has made an enormous contribution. I am not sure whether the hon. Member for Fermanagh and South Tyrone realised what he then said. Hansard will correct me if I have got it wrong and I shall apologise, but I think he said that they all took risks to move forward. Sometimes it is important that people who lead take a leap and take a risk in order to move forward.

In a powerful speech, the right hon. Member for Lagan Valley (Mr Donaldson) said that we have to try to move on from welfare reform. That said it all. We cannot be trapped by it. The hon. Member for East Antrim (Sammy Wilson) said that the stalemate that existed has had not only a financial cost but a credibility cost for the institutions of Northern Ireland. The hon. Gentleman was right when he pointed that out. Of course it is difficult and of course it poses challenges, but the agreement offers a way forward.

There are challenges for the Government too. As the hon. Member for Foyle (Mark Durkan) pointed out in his contribution, it would be helpful if the Government could provide clarification on the questions that I and others asked, in order to inform our discussion. Notwithstanding the need to paint a positive picture of Northern Ireland, we would all agree that it is a great place, it is open for business and investment is going there. I know the Minister would agree that, as the hon. Members for Belfast South (Dr McDonnell), for South Down (Ms Ritchie) and for South Antrim (Danny Kinahan) pointed out, it is important that alongside a welfare package, there is a jobs and growth programme to ensure that every community in every part of Northern Ireland benefits from opportunity, jobs and investment. That is something that the Government, working with the Northern Ireland Executive, would benefit from if they pursued it with more rigour and more vigour.

The Minister can, like the Secretary of State, if I may chide her slightly, comment from a Treasury brief that X number of jobs have been created and X millions of pounds have been invested, but for some those opportunities are not available and that needs to be addressed.

The hon. Member for North Antrim (Ian Paisley) helpfully pointed out that part of the reason that the welfare reform changes are acceptable is the flexibilities that are built into the system and the top-ups that are available. Clearly, those will have to be worked out on the basis of the report to be done by Evason. It would be helpful if the Minister could say a little more about that when he winds up the Second Reading debate.

The hon. Member for Foyle, as I said, has been a determined welfare campaigner. I set out some questions, he set out some questions, and they need to be answered—

[Stephen Pound (Ealing North) (Lab)]

My hon. Friend is approaching the end of an extremely important speech, which was greeted with great support in all parts of the House. When the hon. Member for Strangford (Jim Shannon) quoted from Ecclesiastes 3, he referred to everything having a season. Like everyone else in the House, I thought of the following line:

“a time to break down, and a time to build up”.

Is this not the occasion when we must start to build up?

[Vernon Coaker]

I thank my hon. Friend for that. He said that I could put it into my remarks, but I do not have the confidence in biblical matters that he has. I sometimes need biblical help.

In the end, the failure to agree in Northern Ireland could have resulted in the collapse of devolution or the return of direct rule—a situation that is not acceptable to any of us. Because a majority in the Northern Ireland Assembly has consented, we are legislating here on welfare reform, and legislating in a way that will enable Northern Ireland to move forward and continue to make the progress we all want.