Polish Anti-defamation Law

Debate between Stephen Pound and Daniel Kawczynski

Tuesday 5th June 2018 Westminster Hall

[Stephen Pound (Ealing North) (Lab)]

Politicians nowadays are often accused of being bland, anonymous, anodyne figures. It is on an occasion such as this that we realise that we have here, in our Parliament, people with a unique range of references, sources, backgrounds and histories. I deeply respect the hon. Member for Shrewsbury and Atcham (Daniel Kawczynski) and his background, his family connection and his blood tie. However, the speech from my hon. Friend the Member for Leeds North West (Alex Sobel) was quite simply one of the most impressive that I have heard in Westminster Hall. He spoke from the heart; he spoke with absolute passion and with truth; and no one who heard him could be unmoved by his comments. Regrettably, having said that, I have to come to a conclusion that is completely opposite to the one that he has reached.

The Act submitted to the Sejm on 26 January 2018 was not intended, nor can it be seen, as an act of anti-Semitism. It is an Act specifically to address a concern that is viscerally agonising for the Polish people—the constant repetition of that inaccurate, brutal, cruel phrase “Polish death camps” or “Polish extermination camps”. That was the reason for the legislation. The fact that it has been referred to the constitutional committee suggests to me that it might have been, in certain circumstances, appropriate for us to have delayed this debate.

Having listened to my hon. Friend the Member for Leeds North West, however, I entirely understand why he felt it necessary to bring this matter to the House even while that process is in play. I also have no doubt that I speak for every person inside and outside this Chamber in expressing our deepest sympathy to him for the foul, vile, scatological filth that he has suffered. Sadly, it is not unique, but there certainly seems to be a particular strand and trend, which is deeply regrettable. I would not say that this is indicative of attitudes in Poland. Of course there are Polish anti-Semites—no one could pretend otherwise—but to say that these comments are somehow reflective of all Poles, and that this issue is about the Polish League Against Defamation or various other groups, is to give them more strength and power than they actually deserve.

This process was not sought by the Polish Government or the Sejm. It was a reaction to a circumstance that seemed to be gathering in pressure and strength. Many are concerned, as my hon. Friend implied, that this legitimises and opens the door to anti-Semitism. In Poland, however, exactly the opposite applied. It was felt that the constant reference to Polish death camps opened the door to something even worse—revisionism, an attack on Polish history and an assault on the contributions that the Poles made.

Let us never forget that there was no Polish Pétain or Quisling. If we want to see the Poles in the second world war, we need to look to General Bór-Komorowski, the people who fought with the Warsaw rising and the people in the Government in exile who introduced the death penalty for confiscating, stealing or abusing Jewish people or their property. There was no anti-Semitism in the structural sense. Of course there were, inevitably, such individuals. I have them in my constituency, Mr Gapes, and I am sure you have them in yours.

The Polish Government introduced this legislation as a response to a gathering storm throughout the world. I am disappointed that the reaction of the current Israeli Government has been unusual in its strength. The Israeli ambassador to Poland, Anna Azari, was involved right from the beginning in these discussions with the Government in Poland, the Sejm and the committee that structured and drafted this.

Article 55a, paragraph 3 was specifically introduced into the legislation to avoid any accusation that this legislation would close down debate, because there were some people who felt that this legislation, unamended, would not allow scientific analysis. It is said that only the future is certain; the past is always changing. Well, we are not afraid of the past. This amendment was brought in specifically to exclude not just scientific and academic research, but artistic research, to avoid any accusation that this matter was being closed down. We have to respect and understand that.

The hon. Member for Shrewsbury and Atcham mentioned the discussions that took place between the two Prime Ministers, Mateusz Morawiecki and Benjamin Netanyahu. I think that is a positive sign. We see too much, in this place and on this planet, of people striking postures, beating their chest and issuing absurd Twitter comments in the middle of the night. I mention no names and I point no fingers—even if it was with a very little hand. There are those people, however, who think that we need to discuss and debate these issues. The two Prime Ministers are the appropriate people.

[Daniel Kawczynski]

The hon. Gentleman is, as usual, making an eloquent speech. At all these award ceremonies where Poles are recognised for helping Jews—certainly at the one I attended—the Polish Prime Minister, Mr Morawiecki, is present, as is the head of the Law and Justice party, Prezes Kaczyński. They want to send a strong message about the strength of feeling among the Polish state about reconciliation and harmony between Poles and Jews.

[Stephen Pound]

I am grateful to the hon. Gentleman, who speaks with authority on these matters. He and I have stood together at the Katyn memorial. We have spoken at many of these occasions. We have been at RAF Northolt on the day on which, every year, we recognise the heroic contribution of the 303 Squadron—the most successful fighter squadron in the Royal Air Force—when the bonds between our two countries were forged in blood. He knows, as I know, the depth of the contribution that the Polish people have made. I am not Polish. I do not have a drop of Polish blood. I lack that honour. When I hear this expression about Polish death camps, however, I feel for Poland and I weep for the Polish people.

Look at what is happening nowadays in Warszawa and Kraków. There is a holocaust memorial museum and the complete rebuilding of the ghetto, where there are Jewish restaurants and a whole Jewish quarter. In fact, they do not use the word ghetto any more, which is probably just as well. South of Kraków, at Auschwitz-Birkenau, the air falls still. In the forest there is no birdsong. Something so terrible happened there that the weight of history still presses down on those people who approach it. Something has sucked the energy out of the air. Visitors pass beneath that awful sign, which the hon. Gentleman referred to.

I hope that no one in the world thinks for a second that this was anything other than the planned, industrial and mechanised extermination of a people by the Nazis—not by the Poles. There may have been some Ukrainians who worked in the death camps. We know that. The legislation that went through in January specifically refers to the Ukrainian actions in this particular area. That is not to imply, however, even for a passing second, that the Polish people were complicit in, supportive of, involved in or responsible for that appalling crime—that spreading stain of agony that still disfigures our history, and that marks and shapes our future as it so brutalised our past.

Anglo-Polish Relations

Debate between Stephen Pound and Daniel Kawczynski

Tuesday 18th July 2017 Westminster Hall

[Daniel Kawczynski (Shrewsbury and Atcham) (Con)]

I beg to move,

That this House has considered Anglo-Polish relations.

I am grateful to be speaking in this important debate. My family and I left Poland and came to the United Kingdom in 1978, because of communism. My parents were staunchly anti-communist and refused to live under the tyranny of communism, but after martial law it was impossible to return, and we had to see our family, friends and fellow citizens suffering under the oppression of the Jaruzelski regime. I returned for the first time after the lifting of martial law, in 1983. I spent many summers with my beloved Polish grandfather, listening to his experiences and hearing of the suffering that he and his family and his generation went through during the terrible times of the second world war, and the horrendous brutality and destruction in Warsaw from 1939 to 1945. I also listened to his experiences of living under a communist system, with the terrible lack of freedom that ensued from that.

I am very proud of being the first ever Polish-born British Member of Parliament. Although there are other Members with relatives from Poland, I am the only one to have actually been born there, and I am proud of my unpronounceable surname. When I first stood to be on the Conservative candidates list someone said to me, “You will never be elected with a completely unpronounceable surname like that. You’ve got to change it or anglicise it”—as many others have done. I said, “In that case, I will never stand for Parliament, because I am very proud of my Polish roots.” Once during the selection process someone said to me: “Kawasaki—that’s not a very Shropshire name, is it? How are you going to get by with a name like that?” I said, “Well, it didn’t cause my grandfather’s generation any problems when they were fighting in the battle of Britain, so I hope it won’t cause me any problems today.”

I am proud of the fact that this debate is taking place at the same time as the royal visit to Warsaw, which accentuates the increasing importance of Poland as a European economy and a trading partner for the United Kingdom—as well as a defence partner for our country. Let us not forget that while we grapple with encouraging many of our NATO partners to spend the prerequisite 2% of GDP on defence, Poland is already doing so. In fact, it plans to increase defence spending beyond the 2% margin. However, differences are opening up between Poland and Germany—the two countries that the royal couple are visiting this week—with respect to their vision for the European Union and its component parts, and what authority it should have over sovereign nation states. I hope to get the Minister’s perspective on the differences that are starting to materialise between Warsaw and Berlin.

This year we celebrate the 77th anniversary of the battle of Britain, and I was proud last year to accompany Lord Tebbit, a man for whom I have enormous respect, to the RAF Club to celebrate the 76th anniversary. He and I, along with many senior Polish military officers and their British counterparts, had a wonderful dinner. In his speech Lord Tebbit—who, we should not forget, served in the RAF—said something that resonated enormously with me and will stay with me for the rest of my life. He said that in the summer of 1940 the balance between the Luftwaffe and the RAF was so even, and the outcome of that key battle was so uncertain, that it was unequivocally the arrival of the Poles, the largest foreign contingent in the battle of Britain, that tipped the balance in favour of the British side. Although the debate is about current Anglo-Polish relations, we must never forget the extraordinary contribution that those brave men undertook on our behalf to save our country. We must always celebrate that and teach our children and grandchildren about it. Although their country had been taken over by tyranny, they did not give up. They did not just lie back and take it. They continued their struggle against fascism by coming to the United Kingdom and fighting with us.

[Stephen Pound (Ealing North) (Lab)]

The hon. Gentleman’s points are extremely important. The contribution and enormous sacrifice made by the Polish people means that they have the support of every proud member of this nation.

The inquest on the suicide of Dagmara Przybysz opened yesterday. That bright, intelligent young woman committed suicide because she was bullied for being Polish. Does the hon. Gentleman agree that the points he has made should be disseminated as widely as possible, so that no one will ever again be bullied for being Polish? They should instead be praised for it.

[Daniel Kawczynski]

I am grateful to the hon. Gentleman for raising that point. My right hon. Friend the Minister drew to my attention a newspaper article about that beautiful young Polish girl, who was found hanged in school as a result of being bullied by a racist gang.

Contribution of Poles to UK Society

Debate between Stephen Pound and Daniel Kawczynski

Tuesday 19th July 2016 Westminster Hall

[Daniel Kawczynski (Shrewsbury and Atcham) (Con)]

I beg to move,

That this House has considered the contribution of Poles to UK society.

It is a great pleasure to introduce this debate. First, I acknowledge the tremendous work that the Polish ambassador, Mr Witold Sobków, has undertaken during the past four years in cementing bilateral relations between the United Kingdom and Poland. In my estimation, Mr Sobków has been one of the best diplomats to the Court of St James’s. Unfortunately, we are losing him shortly, because he is going back to Warsaw to work at the Ministry of Foreign Affairs, but this great Anglophile has worked tirelessly to promote relations between our two countries, and I take this opportunity to thank him for his contribution to Anglo-Polish relations.

[Stephen Pound (Ealing North) (Lab)]

On behalf of the Opposition, may I associate ourselves with those comments about His Excellency Witold Sobków? We entirely endorse the very generous comments. He has been an excellent ambassador. He is a man who has been not just a great friend to this country, but a great representative of the Polish people in this country. On both sides of the Chamber, we are honoured and delighted to associate ourselves with the hon. Gentleman’s words. [Interruption.]

[Daniel Kawczynski]

I think this is the first time that I have heard applause from the Public Gallery, but that just goes to show what a popular figure His Excellency is.

As the first ever Polish-born British Member of Parliament, I take great pride in my Polish roots, and I feel a sense of responsibility, given my Polish background, in sometimes putting to the fore, in the crucible of the House of Commons, issues pertaining to Anglo-Polish relations, but also the wellbeing of the huge Polish diaspora who currently live in the United Kingdom. I remember that 16 years ago, when I was first considering standing to be a Member of Parliament, I was told by a very senior person that I would never become an MP “with that completely unpronounceable Polish surname” and that I would have to change or anglicise it if I was ever to be elected as an MP in this country.

I refused to do so. I told that person in no uncertain terms that I would refuse to change my surname, because I am very proud of my Polish roots; and I have to say, having been elected now on three separate occasions by the people of Shrewsbury to represent them, I think that is testimony to the way English people, British people, treat outsiders who have come into this country and welcome and accept them. That is a wonderful thing. I think we are one of the most tolerant nations in the world. I went on business to more than 90 countries around the world before I became a Member of Parliament and I think the British people are among the most tolerant and welcoming of any in the world.

--- Later in debate ---

[Daniel Kawczynski]

Absolutely. I know that my hon. Friend has engaged with the Polish diaspora on a number of occasions and is a great champion of them in his constituency. I completely concur with his sentiments.

It was not just the battle of Britain; it was not just the pilots flying during the battle of Britain; it was the Enigma code. Many people think that the Enigma code was broken at Bletchley Park. The first crack of the Enigma code took place in Poland and when Poland was occupied, Polish cryptographers, mathematicians and experts came from Poland to Bletchley and continued their work assiduously there. That contribution by the Poles in Bletchley has been marked recently, because relatives of those who served at Bletchley have been invited to services there to commemorate the contribution of their relatives. There are plaques, and more information is now being disseminated to schoolchildren visiting Bletchley about the unique contribution made by Poles to the British war effort. Breaking the Enigma code must have saved hundreds of thousands, if not millions of lives. If we had not broken those codes, the war would have been protracted for potentially many more years. By breaking those codes we finally began to understand what the German strategic battle plans were and react to them. Again, the Poles played an extraordinary role.

One of the most moving things I have done in the 11 years I have been a Member of Parliament was to visit the war cemeteries in Libya. I spent an afternoon walking along the rows of British and Polish tombstones. Many young Polish and British men died together, in the desert in Libya, far away from their countries but in solidarity together to defeat fascism. That will stay with me for the rest of my life.

[Stephen Pound]

I realise that if we are going to talk about Polish heroism, we will need a lot more than an hour and a half—we would need a week and a half, at the very least. I am sure that the hon. Gentleman will come on to Monte Cassino and General Anders, but can I ask him to place on record his appreciation for the Polish navy, which very seldom gets appreciated? Let us not forget that it was Commodore Francki, commanding Blyskawica, who sank the Bismarck and that it was Polish naval forces who defended the city of Glasgow during the Clydebank blitz. The Polish navy made an enormous contribution, but they seldom get thanked and recognised. I am sure that the hon. Gentleman would wish to do so on this occasion.

[Daniel Kawczynski]

I am very grateful for that intervention; I agree with the hon. Gentleman. In representing one of the Ealing seats, he knows a great deal about the Polish community. I know that he loves paczki very much—that is the Polish for doughnuts—and he and I have often shared doughnuts from Poland. He is very assiduous in understanding his Polish community and I pay tribute to him for the interest that he has taken in representing so many Poles in Ealing.

Today, we have over 2,500 Polish doctors and many Polish nurses working in the United Kingdom. I would like to share an example of something that happened to me in Shrewsbury. The head of one of our most successful care home organisations—it has care homes across the whole region—came to me and said, “I would like you please to put me in touch with a Polish agency that can help me to find care workers for all our care homes.” I said to him, “Why do you want Polish care assistants?” I rather suspected that it may have been a monetary issue. He said, “To be honest with you, we have done surveys among all our residents and they have asked specifically for Polish care workers, because they are so attentive, kind and understanding, and they want to engage with residents and treat them with dignity.”

Every country has its strength and weaknesses, but as somebody who was born in Poland, who lived there and who goes there many times throughout the year, I think the way in which Poles are educated from a very young age about the importance of looking after the elderly, and how they are schooled by their families and society about the importance of care for the elderly, is second to none. I talked about how Britain is tolerant to outsiders and how other countries can learn from us; I think other countries can learn an awful lot about how Polish people treat the elderly. It is ingrained in them from a very early age, so I was very proud when the care home owner said to me that his residents had specifically asked for Polish care workers.

Poles have a reputation for having a very strong work ethic, for honesty and integrity, and for being polite, professional, punctual and non-exorbitant. Think about it: whether someone is looking for a plumber, a doctor or a dentist, or any other professional, those are very good adjectives to describe the sort of service that one would hope to expect from a professional. My message to all the Poles, whether they are plumbers, bricklayers, fruit pickers, doctors, lawyers, technicians, engineers or chefs, is that they all contribute—each and every single one of them—to this country and I am very proud of the contribution that the 850,000 of them make to our country.

Pay and Consultants (Public Sector)

Debate between Stephen Pound and Daniel Kawczynski

Tuesday 13th March 2012 Westminster Hall

[Daniel Kawczynski (Shrewsbury and Atcham) (Con)]

I congratulate the hon. Member for Hammersmith (Mr Slaughter) on securing this important and timely debate. I speak as somebody who has worked in both the private and public sectors. I started my life after university in the private sector. I spent a great deal of time trying to secure as large a salary from my bosses as I could, always pushing for a better company car, health insurance, ever greater bonuses and shares in the company. I felt that that was fair and appropriate, as the company was making a great deal of money, I was contributing to that wealth and the shareholders were happy to pay that sort of remuneration.

Having come into the public sector, I think that those of us who work in it should not be thinking about trying to make a lot of money. It has a lot to do with mindset and with educating people about the different responsibilities involved in working in the public rather than the private sector. One must never forget in the public sector that one’s salary comes, in the main, not from wealthy people but from extraordinarily hard-pressed families who are struggling to pay their bills and, in certain cases, to keep a roof over their heads and those of their family. All of us who work in the public sector must bear that in mind.

I am participating in this debate because I want to raise something specifically with the Minister. I went to Pontesbury village hall in my constituency to meet first responders, people in remote rural Shropshire villages who respond to emergency cases before an ambulance arrives. In many cases, they save people’s lives. It is the big society in action. I found out on Saturday that there are 144 such responders in Shropshire, and I pay tribute to them. Someone said to me at that public meeting that the chief executive of the west midlands ambulance trust earns £180,000 a year. I was absolutely staggered by that, bearing in mind that a lot of the work carried out by the first responders—as I have said, they are all part of the big society in action—is charitable work. They are on a shoestring budget and yet provide a vital service.

I telephoned the chief executive of the West Midlands Ambulance Service NHS Trust following the meeting because of the concerns raised by that constituent at the public meeting in Pontesbury, who said to me, “We do the work primarily from charity. Did you know that the chief executive of the ambulance trust is on £180,000?” There was anger, frustration and bewilderment from my constituents, who were all there in a voluntary capacity, undertaking a vital role in teaching people how to be first responders. Even I was taught how to resuscitate someone while I was there—not that I want to put it into practice, of course, for fear of hurting someone. I was extremely impressed with what was going and worried about my constituents feeling upset about the high salary.

I telephoned Mr Marsh, the chief executive, to ask him how he could possibly justify earning £180,000 a year, which is a staggering amount. His response was, “I do a very important job.” Of course he does an important job—managing the West Midlands ambulance service is an extraordinarily important job. However, I tried to convey to him that it is no more important than the job of the Prime Minister, a point that the hon. Member for Hammersmith alluded to at the beginning of his speech. Why should any public sector employee be paid more than the Prime Minister of the country, who has a huge amount of responsibility on his plate?

Police and crime commissioners will be elected in November. My understanding is that the police and crime commissioner for our area in Shropshire will be remunerated somewhere along the lines of £100,000 per annum, which I am pleased about. That is a far more suitable salary for people in the public sector rather than sky-high, rocketing salaries.

The issue is not just about mega-high salaries for individuals, but about how even small organisations manage taxpayers’ money. One parish council in my constituency, Bayston Hill parish council, manages to spend £43,000 per annum on administration costs and the salary of a clerk—this is just one parish council. We all have a responsibility to acknowledge and accept that our wonderful country is on its knees financially, and we all have to take responsibility in ensuring that debts are paid off and that salaries are reasonable.

I am conscious of the time, so I will end by talking briefly about my concerns about the pay of certain BBC executives. My understanding is that Mark Thompson is on a salary of more than £600,000 per annum, which I find—I will go as far as to say this—nauseating, deeply distressing, worrying and troubling. At a time when BBC Radio Shropshire is facing cuts—not a single person in that entire organisation is paid more than £55,000 per annum, and it is a wonderful service that provides many people in our rural county with vital services—the director-general of the BBC is earning more than £600,000. I fundamentally object to that.

[Stephen Pound (Ealing North) (Lab)]

We have just heard the exposition of Kawczynski’s law—that one squeezes as much from their employer as they possibly can, including company cars. Surely the director-general of the BBC is merely following the sound and good advice of the hon. Gentleman?

[Daniel Kawczynski]

There is an important distinction. I was working in the private sector, with shareholders as private individuals. Mr Thompson works for the BBC, which, by the way, forces millions of people up and down this country to pay for TV licences. I have applied for a debate on the rationale and efficiency of the way in which that tax is collected. There is a fundamental difference.

I am grateful for being called, and I end my speech now so that other hon. Members may speak.

Sudan

Debate between Stephen Pound and Daniel Kawczynski

Thursday 28th April 2011 Westminster Hall

[Daniel Kawczynski (Shrewsbury and Atcham) (Con)]

I, too, convey my thanks to the right hon. Member for Coatbridge, Chryston and Bellshill (Mr Clarke) for securing this debate. During the previous Parliament, I visited Sudan together with Michael Howard and David Steel, both now in the House of Lords. One of the most moving and emotional things that I saw during the course of the previous Parliament was when I spent two days walking through the camps in Darfur and meeting the refugees. I talked to them and saw their living conditions, heard what they and their families had been through and saw the tremendous fear, poverty and appalling brutality that those people had faced for such a long time. At the time, as we see in Hansard, many speeches were made about our concern for the situation in Darfur, yet we seemed unable to influence the situation, much to the concern of many hon. Members.

While my colleagues and I were in Darfur, we spoke with the African Union soldiers who were trying to bring some form of policing to the area, and they expressed concerns about the Sudanese authorities’ intransigent obstruction of their efforts properly and effectively to supervise things. We took those concerns directly to President Omar al-Bashir when we met him at his presidential palace in Khartoum, and despite all my concerns about what had been happening in Darfur, I was extremely pleased by our meeting. I wish that hon. Members could have seen the conviction and effectiveness with which Michael Howard and David Steel negotiated with President Omar al-Bashir during our meeting. I was extremely pleased that changes were subsequently made, and African Union helicopter flights were allowed at night-time to protect innocent civilians.

On a note of optimism, I am pleased at how the referendum has gone. Given all the problems that the country has suffered over such a long period, it is quite a paradigm shift for it to go through the referendum process. That is something to be encouraged and to be grateful for. I met the Sudanese ambassador before the referendum, and he was sure that the country would split. There was a consensus about that; even before the referendum, everybody realised there was a certain inevitability about the country splitting. Of course, this is an extremely controversial issue, as we have heard from colleagues, and terrible difficulties are involved in any divorce. However, the country has somehow managed to go through the referendum process in a relatively peaceful and stable way, and I very much hope that the Minister will acknowledge the progress that has been made.

When I was in Khartoum, I realised that parts of it are like downtown Beijing because of the tremendous influence of the Chinese. I have never seen so much Chinese lettering anywhere in the world, apart from in China. China is all over the country, with huge investments and a massive influence on the Government. It is a pity that there is so much Chinese influence and so little direct British influence. Many politicians told me that all the products in Sudan were British-made in the ’50s and ’60s; everything was made in Britain and then exported to Sudan. Now, there are hardly any British products in Sudan; all the products are Chinese imports.

The reason I have come here is to ask the Minister to work with British business to help expand trade with Sudan. I understand that DFID is all about international aid and assistance, but there must be some interaction and co-operation with British industry to help British business export to Sudan and send people there to assist in the country’s construction. There should be some form of co-operation and engagement between DFID and British business.

[Stephen Pound (Ealing North) (Lab)]

Before the hon. Gentleman moves on from the extremely pertinent question of Chinese influence, which can be seen not only in southern Sudan, but in many other places, will he share with us his view of what lies behind that activity? What is motivating this extraordinarily frenetic expansion, which is originating in China and flourishing in Africa?

[Daniel Kawczynski]

If we look at the map of Africa, we see that the greatest Chinese investment is primarily where the oil reserves are. The hon. Gentleman will recognise that the Chinese are keen to invest. There is huge construction of bridges, railways and other infrastructure to extract the minerals and oil that China so desperately needs for its economy.

I have had many meetings with the Sudanese ambassador to the UK at his embassy, and I pay tribute to him, because he is a good and diligent representative of his country. I have taken British businesses to see him, and he keeps telling me, “Sudan is open for business with the UK. We are desperate”—to return to the point made by the hon. Gentleman—“to detach ourselves from our over-dependence on China. We need to change our economy’s relationships to make sure we interact more with countries in Europe and particularly with the UK.” Many Sudanese people see the UK in an extremely positive way, and they have a long-standing friendship and relationship with us.

This is the first time I have heard of the cancellation of the £1 billion debt owed to Britain, which the right hon. Member for Coatbridge, Chryston and Bellshill highlighted. He asked the Minister to clarify when that debt will be cancelled, and I, too, am very much looking forward to hearing the answer. However, this should not just be a matter of saying, “Oh well, let’s cancel £1 billion of debt,” and we must remember that we are talking about British taxpayers’ money. Our country is heavily indebted, and various facilities are being closed in our constituencies, so £1 billion is a huge amount of taxpayers’ money to think of simply cancelling.

Rather than just cancelling £1 billion of debt, therefore, I suggest that we negotiate with the Sudanese. We should say that we will cancel a proportion of the debt in exchange for their hiring the services of British manufacturing consultancies or companies, which would go to their country to educate their people, set up production and help them set up factories. There must be a quid pro quo interaction between the British Government and Sudan. We should not simply cancel the debt, but cancel some of it and say that we want the Sudanese to use the money to hire the services of British companies.

[Daniel Kawczynski]

The right hon. Gentleman makes a good point, but whether that borrowing was reckless or not, we all take out mortgages, and we normally all have to pay off the debt. Regrettably, some of my constituents have taken out loans that they cannot afford, and I have tried to help them to somehow negotiate their way through those loans. That is difficult, but a contract has been signed. We should show good will to the Sudanese by cancelling some of the debt, but I do not think the right hon. Gentleman would object to our also encouraging them to use some of the resources that would be freed up when they no longer have to pay us interest to engage the services of British engineering and manufacturing consultants in the development and restructuring of their country.

[Stephen Pound]

I do not want to trespass too much on the hon. Gentleman’s generosity of spirit, but, to take up his analogy, nobody would object to paying a mortgage if they got a house out of it. When it comes to debt relief in Africa, however, it is as if the mayor of the town got the house, and the people had to pay the mortgage; that is a much more accurate description. I hope, therefore, that we can unite in praise of the Government, the Minister and DFID for apparently intending to do precisely what my right hon. Friend the Member for Coatbridge, Chryston and Bellshill (Mr Clarke) suggested by writing the debt off.

[Daniel Kawczynski]

I do not want to come across as a Scrooge, and I know how generous the hon. Gentleman is, but a lot of British companies would like to engage and trade with Sudan and do not know how to. DFID has a huge role to play in advertising the opportunities and what is happening in a country, and in ensuring that the Department for Business, Innovation and Skills and British commerce and industry are engaged in helping it to create the prosperity that we desperately need. Sudan will be prosperous long term only through trade, not through aid, as I hope the hon. Gentleman will acknowledge. Sudan is able to become a very wealthy country through increased trade with the UK and to not always be over-dependent on aid.

I served briefly on the Select Committee on International Development in the previous Parliament. We visited many countries in Africa, and one of those visits was to a tiny village on the Ethiopian-Kenyan border. The workers from the non-governmental organisation that had been hired were all French speakers and all the machinery—everything—was Chinese or Japanese. I went to the village to meet the village elders, who said to me, “You know, Mr Kawczynski, we’re very grateful to you and the French Government for providing all this wonderful help for our village.” I said, “We’re not French, we’re British”. They replied, “Oh, what’s Britain got to do with it?” So stripped had DFID become of the British brand—deliberately stripped by Clare Short—that, in many circumstances around the world, there was no linkage at all between the UK and British taxpayers and the good work happening on the ground.

That was a deliberate policy by Clare Short following the scandalous Pergau dam incident, which we all recall, but it went too far. I am very proud and satisfied that British taxpayers are helping the poorest around the world. It is something for which we should all be thankful, but we should not flinch from waving the British flag at the same time and showing how important it is to promote the UK. Can the Minister assure me today that he is engaged directly in helping British commerce to work with Sudan to help to ensure its future prosperity?

--- Later in debate ---

[Daniel Kawczynski]

Does not the hon. Gentleman agree that more of the products that DFID sends abroad—water sanitation items and other things to help people—should be British, even if they are slightly more expensive than the alternatives? DFID should source more British products than it currently does.

[Stephen Pound]

My experience of DFID projects—admittedly, more in central and south America than in Africa—is that the single most important issue is sustainability, not where a product comes from. Many hydraulic kits for wells that have been provided from this country, with the best will in the world, simply do not last because they cannot be repaired and maintained because the parts cannot be sourced locally. That is the tragedy. Of course, if there is a hydraulic water raising factory in the hon. Gentleman’s Shrewsbury and Atcham constituency—there might well be, and if there is not, I am sure that there will be in a couple of weeks—let it cover the globe with its marvellous equipment, but let us also train local people to provide engineering resources so that the equipment can be maintained. We used to say that when the donkeys stop nodding in the oil fields, it takes a great deal to get them nodding again.