20 Years of Devolution

Debate between Stephen Kerr and Pete Wishart

Thursday 11th July 2019 Commons Chamber

[Pete Wishart]

I am more than happy to agree with my hon. Friend. As we observe what has happened in Wales, we see that the pace of the change has been quite dramatic. My hon. Friend is right to point out that Wales now has a law-making Assembly. There was some discussion yesterday about its being renamed the Senedd, which I think will prove very worthwhile and valuable. We are on a journey, and it is not finished yet.

[Stephen Kerr (Stirling) (Con)]

The hon. Gentleman is making a strong case for what has been achieved in the last 20 years, and I welcome that. Does he agree that, by virtue of the make-up of the Scottish Parliament and the system by which we elect our MSPs, it is right for parties to work together—that there should be no demarcation lines for who will work with whom, but that we should always be working together for the benefit of Scotland?

[Pete Wishart]

There is nothing in what the hon. Gentleman has said with which I could possibly disagree. We have seen examples of coalition government in the Scottish Parliament, and, indeed, it was designed on that basis. When Labour and the Liberals, in the main, put together the Scottish constitutional convention, that was what was anticipated. The fact that we have been on a particular journey and have had a variety of different arrangements for government demonstrates our resilience.

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[Stephen Kerr]

Will the hon. Gentleman give way?

[Pete Wishart]

I will not, if the hon. Gentleman does not mind. I want to make sure that the hon. Member for Monmouth (David T. C. Davies), who chairs the Welsh Affairs Committee, has a chance to speak.

There has been a flurry of devolutionary activity recently. A review initiated by the UK Government is to be conducted by Lord Dunlop, and there is an ongoing debate about completing the powers of the Scottish Parliament with independence for Scotland. That continues to be the most debated and defining issue in Scotland’s political and public life. One thing that can be said about devolution is that it is never boring. Our Parliament has brought Scotland to the attention of the world. Our international footprint has increased because of devolution, and as a consequence more people know about our beautiful country and what it does.

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[Pete Wishart]

That points to some of the evidence we took in the Committee. It is an important point, and I know that it will be looked at when these matters are being progressed.

We found, however, that the Scotland Office did the following. It is its right and prerogative to do this, so of course it can, but it wanted to make sure that the role of the UK and the workings of its Government are asserted in Scotland. That seems to be the basis of the Dunlop review: how we can make Scotland better love what the UK does. This seems to involve a relatively large resource and budget, and it seems as though we will have to expect a lot of new UK branding with all the associated flagging paraphernalia that goes with it. It seems like some sort of bold attempt to make us love that just that little bit more by visibility.

We asked the Secretary of State about this yesterday, and I got the sense that the UK Government are trying to do a rebranding exercise. [Interruption.] Scottish Conservative Members do not like that and are saying that is not the case. We shall hear their opinions about what the Dunlop review will do, but we are very encouraged by the Secretary of State’s response to our report. I think they have agreed to look at almost every recommendation we made; we are excited that they have said they will look at most of the things around the JMC and that that will form part of the review. They are even prepared to look properly at a review of the Scotland Office and tell us what it will be doing, so we remain encouraged. [Interruption.] I did not want to sound bitter or unhappy with things, but that was what I was hearing yesterday, and the hon. Member for Banff and Buchan (David Duguid) was at the same meeting. We have to be positive where we can be and thankful for the fact that most of that response seems to have been quite good so far, so we will just keep things going, and I say to colleagues on the Scottish Affairs Committee that we have a role in this, so we will make sure that that happens.

[Stephen Kerr]

Just to be absolutely clear to the Chairman of the Scottish Affairs Committee, he knows that I welcome and support his Committee’s report, but the Dunlop review is about how the United Kingdom Government work better to bring the benefits of the Union to all parts of the Union; it is quite clearly mischievous on his part to suggest something different.

[Pete Wishart]

I think that I am actually repeating what the hon. Gentleman said: the review will show us what the UK Government do in Scotland. [Interruption.] The hon. Gentleman can tell us what he thinks they are doing; I am just saying what I think, but there we go. [Interruption.] Will the hon. Gentleman just calm down a little? He does not need to get over-excited; this is a consensual debate. We will see what happens, but I congratulate the UK Government on their positive response. It is right that we continue to look out for devolution and continue to ensure that it is properly assessed and continues to work in the best interests of all our nations across the United Kingdom.

Scottish Affairs Committee

Debate between Stephen Kerr and Pete Wishart

Thursday 7th June 2018 Commons Chamber

[Stephen Kerr (Stirling) (Con)]

I welcome unreservedly the hon. Gentleman’s Committee’s report. I am pleased to tell the House that earlier today RBS announced its decision, after much discussion, that the Bannockburn branch will now remain open at least until the end of the year. That is something, at least. He has rightly pointed out that there is no financial gain for the Royal Bank of Scotland in closing any of these branches, so does he agree that the Lending Standards Board should immediately publish all its workings in relation to the closure of these RBS branches?

[Pete Wishart]

I am grateful to the hon. Gentleman for his remarks, and I am pleased and satisfied to hear that his Bannockburn branch will be among the 10 that will remain open at least until the end of the year. He is absolutely right to say that there are major issues with the Lending Standards Board when it comes to the consultation, and we were less than satisfied with its explanation why it could not give us any of the information on the closures that had been supplied to it by RBS. There was a full discussion about those issues, and even at this stage, we will try further to secure that information for the hon. Gentleman.

European Union (Withdrawal) Bill

Debate between Stephen Kerr and Pete Wishart

Report stage: First Day: House of Commons
Tuesday 16th January 2018 Commons Chamber

[Stephen Kerr]

What is stopping us is the fact that there is no point creating an amendment which then itself has to be amended. No one is more disappointed and frustrated than I am that we do not have these amendments. I sat and listened to the Secretary of State for Scotland make the same commitment. I will come on to that as it is a serious matter for me.

[Pete Wishart]

It is important that the hon. Gentleman understands the sequence and how this works. The repeal Bill is something that this Government have done to Scotland. What we have identified in that repeal Bill is a devolution threat in a clause that has to be corrected. If that is not corrected, there will be no legislative consent motion. It is incumbent on the Government who introduced this Bill to sort it and bring it forward. Then we will see whether we can give a legislative consent motion. That is how it works.

European Union (Withdrawal) Bill

Debate between Stephen Kerr and Pete Wishart

Committee: 4th sitting: House of Commons
Monday 4th December 2017 Commons Chamber

[Pete Wishart]

That is an important point, because a sunset clause is the sort of thing we need to see. It would give confidence to the hon. Gentleman and me, rather than just naming the day that we leave the European Union—we are all familiar with that date, anyway.

It is important that we set the context for this debate. We have to see Northern Ireland in the context of devolved powers. Today, we believed we had some sort of solution to the Northern Irish question. There was an agreement. The Prime Minister of Ireland was prepared to get to his feet and say that a solution had been delivered and garnered, only for it to be knocked out of the water by a telephone conversation with Arlene Foster. That is where some of these issues about devolution have gone.

We have now heard the elegant phrase “regulatory divergence”. I had never heard of it before today, but it is fantastic and I want to hear more of it. If regulatory divergence works for Northern Ireland, I am thinking it could just about work for Scotland, given the range of powers we have in the Scottish Parliament and the legislative competence we have in a swathe of areas. So let us hear more about this regulatory divergence. I am disappointed that none of my DUP friends are in, as they could have talked a bit more to me about some of their concerns. The last thing we need in the Scottish Parliament is to be sucked into all this process, so it is incumbent on this Government to ensure that devolution continues to operate on the basic premise set out in the 1998 Act. The sooner we get reassurance that that is their view and they introduce considered amendments, we will be happier—it starts with clause 11.

I listened carefully to the hon. Member for Harwich and North Essex, and I looked at his Committee’s report, saw the witnesses he brought forward and was surprised that he referenced Nigel Smith. My Committee also looked at this issue, hearing from a variety of witnesses—the House of Lords Constitution Committee and the Scottish Parliament Committees have also looked at it—and it is hard to find anybody with expertise in constitutional politics, either on the legal frameworks or in terms of having an academic interest, who does not agree that clause 11 does not work and is in need of amendment. Of all the guests that have been before the various Committees dealing with these matters it is difficult to find someone who would support the Government’s position, and I congratulate the hon. Gentleman on doing so.

There needs to be a basic understanding that the Scottish Government have stated that if clause 11 proceeds as currently constituted, they will not be in a position to recommend a legislative consent motion. That will lead, at the very least, to a constitutional stand-off, which would be singularly unnecessary and unhelpful, and would of course get in the way of all the other issues the UK Government have to deal with in this Brexit mess. Surely the last thing they want is to get into a constitutional stand-off with the Scottish Government. I know that progress has been made and that there is not much difference on some of these things, so it would be much better if the UK Government just fixed this for goodness’ sake. They should just get it sorted if we are so close; they should accept these amendments as a way forward and we could all then get relaxed and happy about the fact that there will not be any sort of constitutional issue to do with it. The Minister needs to say that we are going to be doing that.

It is good to have a look at what has been included in this Bill, particularly in clause 11, so let us start with something that the clause does not do. We have to be clear that it does not return powers from the EU to the devolved Administrations. Instead, it returns powers within the devolved competences solely and exclusively to the UK Government and Parliament. Worse than that, it imposes new restrictions on how the Scottish Parliament can operate when it comes to these devolved competences. The Scottish Parliament and Government will take a double hit. The clause would give the UK Government power to legislate in relation to policy areas that are the responsibility of the Scottish Parliament and the Scottish Government.

There is another issue, which has not been touched on today. At the point where we leave the EU, all these powers are repatriated to the UK Government and into some form of redistributive system—we are not really clear how that would work, as that has not been stated. When we leave, the EU will of course continue to amend and legislate in these areas, and the UK Government will be legislating on behalf of the Scottish Government. So there will be a space in between, from when we leave, where there is a divergence between EU law and UK retained law, which this Government solely and exclusively fit. Not only will the UK Government have powers on retained law when we leave the EU, but they will have ongoing responsibilities, as we continue to make that journey from leaving the EU, to try to fill that gap in between.

[Stephen Kerr]

I congratulate the hon. Gentleman on making a very positive contribution to this debate compared with the speech we heard earlier from the right hon. Member for Ross, Skye and Lochaber (Ian Blackford). The worthy report that his Committee produced, which is a huge contribution to the establishment of common ground, states:

“We recommend that the UK Government agrees with the devolved administrations what areas should be subject to common frameworks and which ones can be devolved.”

Is that not exactly what is going on? Is that not the common ground that he and we are seeking so that we can get this process to move?

[Pete Wishart]

I am grateful to the hon. Gentleman for that intervention. My Committee looked at these issues and considered them seriously, and we hope our report makes a contribution to addressing some of these issues. The key point that he makes, and the thing we have to start to get to in agreeing issues relating to common frameworks, is that they have to be agreed by the Scottish Government and Scottish Parliament before they can be progressed. This idea that frameworks can be imposed upon devolved Assemblies and Parliaments is unsustainable and cannot be operated. That is—

[Pete Wishart]

I will make some progress; I will deal with our report before letting Members in. The key point is that this needs to be agreed and consented to before progressing. We have to get that in place in order to start moving forward on this sort of thing.

[Stephen Kerr]

rose—

[Pete Wishart]

I have given way to the hon. Gentleman. A lot of people wish to speak and I know he will get a chance, so he will be able to come back to this and we can have a conversation about it.

Clause 11 also changes the fundamental dynamic between the Scottish Parliament and this House. Under the clause, the UK assumes a role as the master and repository of all retained EU legislation in devolved areas. As I said to the hon. Member for Harwich and North Essex, who is deep in conversation with the right hon. Member for West Dorset (Sir Oliver Letwin), the provision creates for the first time a hierarchical model of devolution, as Alan Page said in the work that he did on behalf of the Scottish Government. This House will face absolutely no restriction in how it may want to operate in its areas of devolved competence, but the Scottish Parliament will face restrictions. This represents a sort of “know your place, Scotland”, whereby this House asserts its sovereignty on the Scottish Parliament. That is not good enough. We have a conversation among several Members about sovereignty and our different understanding of and approaches to it culturally. This House obviously takes the view that parliamentary sovereignty is what it is all about, whereas we take the view that it is about the sovereignty of the people and the claim or right of the Scottish people to assert their sovereignty. This idea of a “know your place, Scotland”—

[Stephen Kerr]

rose—

[Pete Wishart]

I have given way to the hon. Gentleman and I want to make some progress. In large swathes of devolved competencies, we will be subject to UK frameworks, determined and controlled by the UK Government. That will never be satisfactory to anybody who works in any of the devolved structures and any devolved parliamentarian.

Let me try to make it simple for the Brexiteers—although when I look around I do not see very many of them. It is strange to look around and see mainly remain types; I do not know who to pick on. I am trying desperately to see a Brexiteer. [Interruption.] The hon. Member for Aberdeen South (Ross Thomson) will do. I will try to make it simple for him so that he can get an understanding of this issue. This situation is like Scotland giving up its place in the European Union as part of the United Kingdom in order to join a UK super-state, but the super-state does not seem to be as benign as the European Parliament. For Scotland, this UK super-state we are expected to be part of would make its jaundiced view of the EU look like a benign, cuddly, receptive institution of enlightenment. I am grateful to my hon. Friend the Member for Na h-Eileanan an Iar (Angus Brendan MacNeil) for this analogy. He is not in place, but I hope he will join us later with his words—

[Stephen Kerr]

rose—

[Pete Wishart]

I have given way to the hon. Gentleman already. This UK super-state seeks to control and restrict the operation of Scotland, and it is prepared to strip us of powers faster than any United Kingdom Independence party cartoon version of some evil EU bureaucrat or Commissioner would. I wish to make a comparison with Ireland, because it is instructive. Ireland, as a member of the EU, can almost stop the progress of Brexit—it has the powers to do that, and in the past couple of weeks it has asserted that that might be something it may be obliged to seek. Scotland, as part of the UK super-state, does not even have the power to legislate for the best interests of hill farmers in Perthshire—that is going to be left to this House.

That shows how power grabbing the UK super-state and this place are going to be. This is a real power grab, more menacing than any fantasy dreamt up by our Brexiteer friends in relation to their death star version of Brussels. They are even starting to use the words of the super-state. Our integrated UK joint economy is now to be “the single market”. Any minute now the hon. Member for Harwich and North Essex will be made a UK commissioner and we will start to see “UK-pol” and “UK-atom”. This is the sort of place they are going with this creation of the British super-state. We have to be very careful when we are designing these things. We do not want to swap our useful place in Europe in order to be junior and subservient members of their British super-state.

[Stephen Kerr]

rose—

[Pete Wishart]

I will give way to the hon. Gentleman just to shut him up for a bit.

[Stephen Kerr]

I thank the hon. Gentleman for giving way to shut me up. All the things he has said for the past few minutes, which have detracted from the tone of his speech, are covered in “Common Frameworks: Definition and Principles” published by the Joint Ministerial Committee (EU Negotiations) on 16 October 2017. It describes in detail exactly how we will go about creating the common frameworks. It is the complete opposite of what the hon. Gentleman is saying. He is making it up as he goes along—it is very entertaining, by the way.