Smart Meters Bill (Sixth sitting)

Stephen Kerr Excerpts

Committee Debate: 6th sitting: House of Commons
Tuesday 28th November 2017 Public Bill Committees

[Richard Harrington]

I must formally apologise and hope that the Hansard writers are able to expunge the fact that I got the wrong Henry in the wrong country at the wrong time. In no way was it meant as any form of insinuation, implication or anything improper about the historical knowledge, or indeed, any knowledge, that the hon. Gentleman has. I must apologise for any offence caused. If this were outside in the world where one gets sued, I would have to make a donation to the charity of his choice, but I do not think the difference in Henrys is quite the point he was making.

It is a true and interesting point, which is relevant to so much legislation in this place—many things far more politically contentious than what we are discussing here today. Where it is appropriate for Government to have powers that are delegated is a big issue. I know that in the European Union (Withdrawal) Bill that is going through at the moment this has become quite a big cause célèbre, and it is one with which I have a lot of sympathy. I will try before you rule me completely out of order, Mrs Gillan, to talk about the specifics of this particular Bill, which, by powers of the Henrys, is quite limited in the powers it asks for.

The powers we need are of two types: first, as the hon. Gentleman gracefully and properly conceded, in some cases there is the need for urgency; a Secretary of State of whichever political complexion may need to be able to act quickly. Secondly, there is the question of the general type of statutory instruments, which are dealt with in the affirmative or negative way.

[Stephen Kerr (Stirling) (Con)]

Is there any precedent for using negative resolutions in relation to non-UK companies that have been awarded licences in any facet of our economy?

[Richard Harrington]

I cannot tell him about companies generally, but I know within energy, which is my field, that there are precedents within the Energy Act 2004. My hon. Friend the Member for Finchley and Golders Green next to me has told me the actual point—in fact he has not, he has told me exactly what I have just said. I was trying to be clever and remember the clauses, but I know it was the Energy Act 2011, which set up other special administrative regimes. This is a common system for SARs. There is ample precedent for that and it would seem very strange, for no particular reason, to give this special administrative regime a different rule to others. I hope that the hon. Gentleman will take that point into consideration.

The SAR has largely been formulated with GB-registered companies in mind, since a GB company is the current Smart Meter Communications Licence holder; that is true. However, there is a possibility that at some point in the future the licence holder could be a non-British company. He is right to say that the earliest the licence is expected to be re-tendered is September 2025. I know that delegated legislation moves slowly, but I accept his point that this is not a speed matter. I could not even try to argue in front of him or yourself, Mrs Gillan, that this was the case.

Although a number of adaptations to the special administration regime catering for non-GB companies have already been made by the Energy Act 2004 applied by this Bill, we may find that further modifications are needed to account for a non-British company becoming active in the provision of smart meter communications services.

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[Steve McCabe]

The Minister made a very helpful offer at the end. He says that every single consumer is making a saving, but I repeat that that is not true if the smart meter is in dumb mode. People are not making a saving in those circumstances.

[Stephen Kerr]

The consumer with a dumb meter may very possibly make a saving; I give myself as an exhibit. I changed suppliers. My meter is no longer smart—I grant the hon. Gentleman that—but I have made a saving, because I had a smart meter in the first place.

[Steve McCabe]

I congratulate the hon. Gentleman on his wisdom and semantics. Clearly, in those circumstances, the saving he is making is not to do with the smart meter, but with his judgment in switching supplier—that is the saving he has made.

[Stephen Kerr]

It is because I had a smart meter that I was able to make the saving in the first place.

[Steve McCabe]

As I do not live anywhere near Stirling, I concede that up there, the canny wisdom of the inhabitants is such that they almost certainly have found a way of screwing the best possible deal out of the system. Unfortunately, as somebody who represents the humble folk of Selly Oak, I encounter the people who do not do quite as well out of the programme—hence my desire to represent their interests.

The essence of the amendment is to try to shed light and ensure that the public have a greater understanding of what is going on. I feel that that is absent. If the Minister says that he is going to share the information, that is good enough for me. I beg to ask leave to withdraw the amendment.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

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The position we have at the moment is that two amendments are potentially in scope because they change the long title. However, they have not yet changed the long title because they have not been agreed.

[Stephen Kerr]

I am also a new Member and a bit confused. The hon. Gentleman’s objection seems to be not about the substance of what the Minister has brought forward, but that he does not like the way in which it has been done. On that basis, surely the shadow Minister is not prepared to sacrifice the substance of what is being proposed, on the basis of a procedural question of how many angels are dancing on the head of a pin.

[Dr Whitehead]

Forgive me, Mrs Gillan. It is not about angels dancing on the head of a pin; it is an important issue about the procedures of the House. I can see that the hon. Gentleman is puzzling over whether we would “sacrifice the good” of what is before us because of concern about a procedure. That is not a position that the Opposition have put ourselves in; it is a position that we are all in because these amendments have all been grouped together when they refer to two different things, one of which is a procedure and the other of which is substance.

As far as the substance is concerned, the hon. Gentleman may rest assured that we think the substance is good and we do not wish the Bill to be sabotaged because we have concerns about how those good things came to be, but I think the hon. Gentleman will clearly understand that if that procedure is taken as a usual state of affairs in this House, without anybody drawing attention to it for the future, there may in future be circumstances in which someone wishes to introduce a much worse series of amendments than the one that we have today. We know, because the Minister was clear about it, that another Bill was effectively grafted on to this Bill. I can understand the reasons why the Minister wanted to do that.

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[Patricia Gibson]

I shall be brief. I agree with everything that the hon. Member for Birmingham, Selly Oak said—I fear that this is turning into a bit of a mutual admiration society. I will say no more, except that, alongside the public awareness for which the new clause calls, we would expect public confidence and transparency. The Minister has talked a great deal today about transparency. What I would like, but suspect I will not get, is an assurance from the Minister on public awareness and the confidence we would expect to come with it. Customers have raised the issue with me, and I know that it has also been raised in other arenas. They fear that when their energy usage is known in such detail, it will be used, at some point in the future, as a lever to smooth out demand by having different price bands.

Peak times such as 4 o’clock to 7 o’clock are a real worry for families who are already struggling with energy bills—indeed, with all their bills. We have talked about nudging, and people are concerned that this might be used as a way of nudging their behaviour and when they use their energy, and about what they should do during peak times to avoid using energy as much as they possibly can—that is not entirely possible for everybody. The fear is that this measure may be used to raise charges.

[Stephen Kerr]

I wonder whether that is entirely a bad thing, given that there will potentially be quite rich savings for people who are prepared to change their behaviour and their use of appliances—especially energy-heavy ones—during peak times.

[Patricia Gibson]

It may not be a bad thing for certain people who are in a position to do that, but when kids come in from school and they need to have their dinner—people cannot really work around that and say “You need to wait until 8 o’clock to get your dinner because energy is cheaper then.” There are people for whom that might yield great benefits, but some are trapped in that peak period and cannot work around it. That is a real concern for a lot of consumers, as I am sure the Minister will understand.