Reopening Local Police Stations

Debate between Stephen Hammond and Richard Drax

Wednesday 27th October 2021 Westminster Hall

[Richard Drax (South Dorset) (Con)]

I beg to move,

That this House has considered reopening local police stations.

It is a pleasure to serve under your chairmanship, which I have not done before, Ms Fovargue, and to be here and see human beings around us. I have spent the last year and a half wondering what people are wearing below the television picture, rather than focusing on the screen. Human interaction is back, which is a good thing. It is also a great pleasure to see in his place my right hon. Friend and colleague the Minister for Crime and Policing, who has been immensely helpful to me and to all of us in Dorset on all policing matters, for which I am extremely grateful.

I am here to discuss something that I have wanted to get off my chest: my long-standing feeling that police station closures are the wrong direction of travel. I am an old-fashioned sort. I am not a luddite—where change is necessary, change is necessary—but I do not like the idea of changing the wheel when it does not need changing. I hope that my speech will demonstrate that, on this topic, the wheel has been unnecessarily turned too far. This has been on my mind for a long time, and I am delighted and grateful to be able to share my thoughts with colleagues.

As a soldier, during three tours in Northern Ireland between 1978 and 1987, I saw the overwhelming benefits of what we call human intelligence. In Belfast, Armagh and Strabane, the information was provided mainly by the simple yet devastatingly effective method of patrolling our streets, in rain and sun, day and night, and reassuring, observing, listening and talking to those we met. The mass of information that we gleaned was carefully built up piece by piece, helping to thwart the terrorists and to reassure the public. Although we were soldiers, I am confident that any police officer today would recognise that the role we played was, for the most part, similar to theirs.

For almost 200 years, bobbies on the beat, from Peelers to “Dixon of Dock Green”— my favourite programme at the time—have been a presence on our streets, policing by consent and living and working among us. They lived locally, often in police houses or stations, so they soon gained specialist knowledge of their area and of the bad eggs in it. Like our patrols in Northern Ireland, that intimate knowledge of their patch deterred criminals and reassured and protected the community.

I am tempted to say that those were the good old days—hence the “old-fashioned sort” remark. That pattern of policing ensured the public’s respect, which enabled officers to do their work effectively. Anyone my age remembers the days when a local bobby was in a position to identify a troublemaker in their early years, often staving off more serious offences later. Out on the beat, their physical presence deterred the criminals. The police station itself was a focal point for the community—a base from which patrols went out and to which concerned citizens went. Let us not forget that citizens are frequently required to report to the local police station for one reason or another, and that job has been made far harder by all the closures.

Regrettably, that past—some would say luddite—scenario no longer prevails. At least half of all police stations in England have closed over the past 10 years. Strangely, the numbers are not precise, but a number of freedom of information requests submitted to individual police forces by news organisations paint a worrying picture. The Times estimated in 2018 that 600 police stations had closed since 2010. A Daily Mail report in February 2021 estimated that the number lost was 667. I do not normally quote Opposition spokespeople, but I will today: the shadow Policing Minister, the hon. Member for Sheffield, Heeley (Louise Haigh), said in a debate on rural crime in 2019 that 400 stations in England had closed, with the number of police counters open to the public falling from 900 in 2010 to 500 in 2019. The Commons Library estimates that there has been a total loss of between 600 and 700 police stations over the last 10 years.

I will be grateful if my right hon. Friend provides an answer to this specific question today. As I understand it, none of the numbers is centrally held by the Home Office. Perhaps that is because individual police forces are responsible for the number and location of police stations in their area, and police chiefs have operational independence in making such decisions. Does my right hon. Friend think the Home Office ought to have better understanding or knowledge of what is going on in the 43 police areas? Any FOI requests are addressed to police forces and responses are mixed or partial, particularly where there is an element of commercial sensitivity, which means that buildings have been sold off, often controversially, for development. While the Home Office can and does publicly regret the closure of various stations, Ministers have no power to retain or reopen them; nor do they publish impact assessments relating to police office closures. Does this situation need closer scrutiny?

My hon. Friend the Member for Dudley North (Marco Longhi) highlighted station closures in the west midlands in 2020, saying that his local police force was spending more than £30 million on refurbishing plush offices at its headquarters at Lloyd House in Birmingham. He added that police stations at Dudley and Sedgley had closed, despite the former being a major metropolitan town. In the last few years, others, including my hon. Friends the Members for Kensington (Felicity Buchan), for Solihull (Julian Knight), for West Aberdeenshire and Kincardine (Andrew Bowie), and for Rother Valley (Alexander Stafford), Members representing Merseyside, and the hon. Members for Leyton and Wanstead (John Cryer) and for Coventry North East (Colleen Fletcher), have repeatedly asked questions in the House about crime and reopening police stations in their constituencies.

Regrettably and inexorably, closures have rolled on, with some areas worse affected than others. For example, an FOI request in 2018 showed that 24 police stations in South Yorkshire closed between 2010 and 2018, and a similar request to the Metropolitan police this year revealed that 71 police stations in London have closed since 2010.

[Stephen Hammond (Wimbledon) (Con)]

My hon. Friend is making a very powerful case. It is often argued that modern policing does not require police stations, but so often it does. A police station that could stay open, instead of becoming just another Metropolitan police number, is the one in Wimbledon. Does he think the Mayor ought to be listening to his campaign and backing the campaign by myself and others to keep Wimbledon police station open?

[Richard Drax]

I think the Mayor of London should be backing any campaign that my hon. Friend pushes forward, and I am sure that our right hon. Friend the Minister is listening very closely to him. Yes, of course, that closure should be reconsidered. Wimbledon is a very large area I can see major disadvantages from being without a police station, particularly for people who have been used to having a police station there for all the years that it has been there. So, yes, my hon. Friend is absolutely right and I totally support his request.

To continue focusing on the Metropolitan police, Members may recall that I said that 71 police stations in London had closed since 2010. Concern in the capital is such that Shaun Bailey, the Conservative mayoral candidate, pledged to reopen 38 police stations in London if he was elected. Regrettably, as we know, he was not.

Since the last lockdown, private security companies are reporting a 50% increase in neighbourhood watch groups and residence associations willing to pay for properly equipped patrols in areas such as Richmond Green, Chelsea, Cobham, Woodford Green, Mayfair and Knightsbridge. Uniformed patrols cover areas of up to three square miles or less at a cost of approximately £20 an hour. Unsurprisingly, they are proving extremely effective. Their success reminds me of the crime fighting revolution in New York in the 1990s. Broken windows, graffiti and disorder were seen as indicators of serious crime to come, but this was prevented by the simple expedient of more visible officers and zero tolerance.

On graffiti, I do not know whether other Members have noticed this, but I come into London off the A316, and before I get to the big Earl’s Court junction with the Tesco on the left, all the bridges and a huge advertising hoarding—normally showing films—are smothered in graffiti. Why has that not been removed? Why has no one gone out there and cleaned that up? If the people who did it come back and do it again, they should be arrested and charged. This is a little thing, but little things lead to big things. The first thing that any visitor coming in from Heathrow sees is graffiti all over the main road into the heart of London. Great! Come to graffiti-ridden Great Britain. Our railway lines and bridges are the same—everywhere you go, there is graffiti. What on earth are we doing to stop this? I am just gobsmacked.

The lessons learnt in New York are clear, I believe: regular visible foot patrols deter would-be offenders, or at least encourage them to go elsewhere. Whilst I would not want to push crime into another area, the solution for other areas is to do exactly the same as the first area has done to reduce crime. Critics argue that private security companies in London are a slippery slope towards privatising safety on our streets. Not surprisingly, most residents and business owners disagree entirely and instead welcome the decline in the crime and antisocial behaviour that sadly grew during the pandemic. Tellingly, one of the most successful of these organisations is called—wait for it— My Local Bobby. I think that speaks for itself.

Without doubt, all the closures are due more to straitened finances than to good operational decision making. To be fair to the Government, I am not here to attack my good friend the Policing Minister. We had to make tough decisions following the recession, and sadly the police took the brunt of the cuts. My aim today is to emphasise how important it is that we reopen police stations and get policemen and women back on the streets as fast as we can. Too many of my constituents and too many of the people I speak to do not see police officers unless they whizz past in a car. That is no good—that is hopeless. It is a necessary back-up, of course, but you cannot talk to somebody doing 30, 40, 50 or 60mph.

The Public Accounts Committee agree that it is a financial thing, saying in 2018 that forces were

“selling off more of their assets to try and raise some funds for capital investment and increasingly drawing on their reserves.”

Decreasing use of police counters, or footfall, was another factor. Statistics were not on the side of retention either: for example, the Mayor’s Office found evidence that between 2006 and 2016, in-person crime reporting fell from 22% to 8%. My personal comment to that, and I have a lot of anecdotal evidence, is that people are losing faith in reporting crimes to the police for fear that nothing will be done; it will just be a number. These statistics were used to justify the introduction of digital crime reporting services. They certainly have their place—of course they do; I am not a luddite to that extreme—but officers cannot patrol digitally, at least not to my knowledge. That is the advantage of having a building to patrol from. I also fear that many people have given up on reporting crime, and I have a lot of anecdotal evidence on that. Many constituents say, “We just don’t bother, Richard. Nothing is going to happen.” That is not a personal attack on the police. They are pushed, and I have nothing but praise for the Dorset police.

Other consultations show that people prefer to report non-urgent crime online. In my view, that sits uncomfortably with further anecdotal evidence that victims of property crime in particular can wait for days to see an officer post-burglary, and feel that their concerns are dismissed. I recall the impact of one burglary. Many years ago, when I worked for the BBC, I went to report on an elderly lady who had had all of her husband’s valuables stolen. He was a solider in the second world war and she had trinkets, medals—all the things we hold dear. They were stolen, and she died a week later. I have been burgled. My daughter has been burgled. A friend of mine was attacked in his home. I know the impact of burglary; I know what it is like. We need to have the resources to prevent it from happening, because the impact on everyone, from any background, is appalling. If your personal space, your home, is invaded, it scars you; it can even kill you. I am also not convinced that consultations are the right answer. I have been an MP for 11 years, and I have heard the word “consultation” more times than I care to remember. My humble opinion on consultations, I am afraid, is that they are usually a case of, “The decision has been made. We’d better do this just to keep people happy.”

Lord Justice Lindblom, for example, overturned the decision to close Wimbledon police station in July 2018 after the victim of a violent burglary argued that the police would not have reached him in time had the station been closed. How interesting that my hon. Friend the Member for Wimbledon (Stephen Hammond) mentioned that very police station; clearly, the battle continues.

There are also practicalities that may have been overlooked in the decisions to close police stations. Not all are physical or quantifiable, but they matter none the less, and all play a part in making a community feel safe. John Apter, national chair of the Police Federation of England and Wales, who represents 100,000 rank-and-file police officers, made exactly this point in 2018, telling The Times:

“Police stations in town centres provide a visible reassurance. One has to question the decision to withdraw visible policing from the streets.”

In 2018, Chief Constable Dave Thompson wrote in the National Police Chief Council blog:

“Budget cuts and a hands-off government approach to aspects of policing have meant hard choices for chief constables with consequences for the public and our people. The public’s experience is policing that is less visible, less responsive and less proactive.”

Closed custody suites have not helped either, making questioning and charging more difficult for both suspects and officers. Although digital information, CCTV and drones provide useful data, they can never tell the whole story, as I hope my Northern Ireland analogy explained. Frankly, one can combat CCTV and drones by simply putting on a balaclava, which, sadly, far too many people do.

I have always wondered—I ask my right hon. Friend and colleague the Minister to comment on this—why we do not make it illegal for people attending rallies to intentionally hide their faces. I know that there is a thin line, and it may be due to cold weather, but it is very difficult for a police officer to judge if a person is hiding their face or if it is just cold. However, I think we all know that if we see a person clad in a black mask with eyeholes, it is not because it is a cold day. They do it for two reasons: to frighten and intimidate, and to hide their identity.

None the less, as I understand it, future operational planning and the Government’s beating crime plan will offer an arm’s length, national online platform at Police.uk, where citizens can access

“a range of interactive police services in one coordinated place”.

Of course, that will not reach the elderly, the vulnerable and those without access to digital technology. I am not knocking this. I am sure it has a place, as all these things do. I am just emphasising again and again the significance of the police station manned day and night by officers who patrol on foot, backed up by those in cars, to deter crime and protect us.

Data from my constituency in Dorset shows that we lost 10 inquiry offices between 2011 and 2015. Those closures were attributed to financial pressures, lack of footfall, and consultation, and I have heard lack of footfall used frequently as a reason in the past. Certainly under David Cameron’s coalition Government I heard it said that no one wants to go to a station any more, but that is not the point. I personally do not care if not a soul goes to the police station. What I care about is that police officers come out and patrol the streets day and night, so that if one young woman is chased through the streets by some nutter, she—or a child, a man, a boy—has somewhere to go to find safety.

Six Dorset police stations have been sold since 2013—again, I am told, due to financial pressures and the consequential change to the way the police have had to operate. We are now left with seven stations and a drop-in hub. Dorset, as I am sure everyone knows, is a huge county. The situation has been inherited by our new chief constable, Scott Chilton, and police and crime commissioner David Sidwick, both of whom I warmly welcome to post and for whom I have huge respect. From what I have heard, they are very sympathetic to my way of thinking. They want police back on the beat, but, as there is everywhere, there is a clamour for resources.

The good news, for which I thank my right hon. Friend the Policing Minister, is that, at 1,326, police officer numbers in Dorset are at their highest level since March 2013, and will increase further by 90 to 100 officers in the next two years, boosted by an annual head count of about 90 police community support officers. We are very grateful for the extra officers we campaigned hard for, so I thank him very much indeed.

Dorset’s population is projected to rise by 4.3% a year, although the recent exodus from cities during the pandemic will not be factored in for some time, so that figure will inevitably rise. I have worked with many officers from Dorset Police, for whom, as I have said, I have huge respect. They are an absolutely dedicated, professional bunch of men and women who do their duty in appalling circumstances and sometimes at great risk to themselves. I have nothing but huge respect for them all. They are more aware than ever of showing a public face and appreciate that we have got to get to the more remote parts. It is of paramount importance, so both the chief constable and the new PCC are on board with that, which is great. Current plans to maximise time in the community include potentially locating mobile police stations in rural areas, and placing neighbourhood policing teams in shared community hubs—both thought to present a less formal face to the public.

On the formal face of the police, the police force are not social services. It is not a police service, but a police force. Their job is to catch criminals, lock them up and protect you, me and our families. That is their job, so I would think that a formal face, a formal uniform and a formal police station give reassurance. It is like seeing a formal soldier or a formal nurse. Nurses do not come dressed in jeans and a T-shirt; they come dressed in a nurse’s outfit, as would a doctor or a soldier. You would think, “Hm, yes.” Why should the police not be equally formal? Of course, they should be friendly and interact with the community, but that will get better if they mix more with the community, and a police station will allow them to do that.

There is a general conviction that technology will help forces to deploy more officers more effectively. Helpful though technology is, I am not convinced that it will result in bobbies on the beat, especially at night, when all too often the criminals come out to do their foul work. Violence against women and girls is now rightly at the top of the national police agenda. Sarah Everard’s tragic killing has unleashed an understandable torrent of emotion from women and girls, who report feeling unsafe on our streets, particularly at night.

Formerly, the presence of a police station, or at least an enquiry encounter in most neighbourhoods, provided some reassurance that there was a safe place to take refuge. That no longer exists in most areas. Now, until better arrangements are made, I understand that women and girls are being offered an app—yes, an app—on a mobile phone, to walk them home after work, school or college or an evening out. Yes, of course technology has a place, but an app will not prevent someone from being attacked or chased. There needs to be a physical building, with physical men and women in it, for protection, and there are too few of them left. I believe that the app, although well meant, is inadequate for the intended purpose, and will never replace the reassurance of a police station.

I welcome Dorset Police’s recent initiatives to identify and deter sexual offenders preying on vulnerable people enjoying a night out, and to introduce safer public spaces in popular night spots for women and girls in particular. That is very good news. StreetSafe, where unsafe or uncomfortable public places can be anonymously reported online, is a valuable addition. I also welcome Dorset’s independent review of local criminal justice response to rape and serious sexual offences.

Finally, we must not forget that police officers now operate in more difficult conditions. We see that every day, whether in the capital, Bristol or even in Dorset. Those brave men and women are facing very challenging times. Violent crime and terrorism have increased the risks they run, along with the general loss of deference in society. The forcefield that once protected them has sadly long gone.

For operational and security reasons it is increasingly rare to see a single officer patrolling a neighbourhood on foot. Understandably, after threats against their homes and families, many prefer to live anonymously, away from the areas they patrol and serve. I believe that their fundamental role, visible and on our streets, has not changed, nor must it ever. To do that effectively, officers need a base to operate from where they can stay warm, write up their reports, take people back to put into cells, and do all the things the police are meant to do.

I get the point that has been repeatedly made to me that a police officer’s job has changed to a huge degree, now dealing with online abuse and theft. The online world has introduced a raft of new areas for policing, which is without doubt taking officers off the beat. All I would say to the Minister for Crime and Policing is that we need more police on the street. We cannot lose the streets to the criminals, because that effective relationship between the citizen and the officer will otherwise be lost.

Police stations may be viewed as old-fashioned and expensive, but they are invaluable, giving officers more control of their area of responsibility and the public the reassurance they seek. Police officers do their job with our consent. Break the link between us and them and the divide will continue to grow. Police stations are not an anachronism; they must be the future.

Rural Bus Services

Debate between Stephen Hammond and Richard Drax

Tuesday 29th April 2014 Commons Chamber

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Transport (Stephen Hammond)]

It is a pleasure to be in the Chamber this evening and I congratulate my hon. Friend the Member for South Dorset (Richard Drax) on securing this debate on rural bus services. I also thank my hon. Friends the Members for Wells (Tessa Munt) and for Mid Dorset and North Poole (Annette Brooke) for their contributions this evening.

I listened carefully to the speech made by my hon. Friend the Member for South Dorset, who is a passionate advocate for his constituents on a number of matters that we have debated. I was particularly interested to listen to his in-depth knowledge of the local bus service and to his view of where issues remain. That was helpful.

My hon. Friend was right to point out, as many people have, that buses play a vital role in our economy. Some 2.2 billion journeys were made on local bus services outside London in the past year and more than half of those who rely on bus services outside London do not have access to a car. Not only in rural areas but in other areas the bus is essential, not only enabling many people to get to work, to education, to the doctor or to hospital but for their quality of life. I accept the case made tonight that for many, particularly in rural areas, the bus is a lifeline, and without it people cannot access essential services, or do a number of the things that people in cities and towns take for granted.

We should note that, overall, satisfaction with bus journeys is high: 88% of passengers are satisfied with their services. As was pointed out, it is not just older people who use buses: under-21s make up a third of bus passengers. However, as a result of the concessionary pass, use among older people is increasing. I will touch on some of the compensation arrangements for that in a moment.

I want to set out how important the Government think buses are. The point about their importance was recently reinforced by a study from Leeds university, which pointed out that bus commuters generate £64 billion of economic output every year, and that one in five bus journeys is for work purposes. I therefore absolutely agree with my hon. Friend the Member for South Dorset that there is an onus on the Government to recognise that bus services are essential. The Government’s continued commitment to expenditure on buses, and to improving bus services, reflects that. This year, we will spend some £1 billion on the concessionary travel entitlement, and some £340 million on direct subsidy. More than £300 million has been allocated to funding major bus projects in the last year, so the Government absolutely recognise the importance of bus services.

Moreover, we have worked with a number of local authorities, through the “Better Bus Areas” fund, to deliver improvements. We have provided £22 million to support community transport, much of it in rural areas. Many bus improvement schemes are funded via the local sustainable transport fund. A total of £95 million has been provided for four rounds of the green bus fund, which has also helped to make environmental improvements. My hon. Friends rightly make the case for their area, and for us to look at further solutions, but I hope that they will recognise that in this spending round, we have protected bus spending until the end of 2015-16, despite the economic chaos that the Government inherited.

I am pleased to say that we have looked at Dorset. Its county council has received some £14.5 million via the local sustainable transport fund. My hon. Friend the Member for South Dorset will know that some of that has funded bus improvements along the Weymouth-Dorchester corridor, which I think goes through Dorset. That money has also resulted in a package of new public transport infrastructure improvements in south-east Dorset.

Improvements have been made, but the Government recognise that more can and must be done. In 2012, our “Green Light for Better Buses” document set out the Government’s plans for the bus industry. The proposals included reforming the bus subsidy, improving competition, incentivising partnership working, looking at multi-operator ticketing, and making access to bus information and ticketing easier for all. We should not underestimate the importance of the ability to access information about services and their regularity as a driver for the continued use of bus services.

There is no doubt that we are in challenging economic times. Government and local authorities have had to make difficult decisions, but the Government want to ensure that the bus market is still attractive to all operators, large and small, urban and rural. The funding that I have mentioned helps to ensure that the market is still attractive. We want to ensure that funding is allocated in a way that is perceptibly fair, while giving the best value for the taxpayer.

My hon. Friend the Member for South Dorset mentioned the bus service operators grant, or BSOG. I would describe it not as a warthog, but as something rather more positive. It is not quite the fatted cow, but it certainly has been paid directly to bus operators in a fairly blunt and untargeted way that relates to fuel consumption. None the less, BSOG was a help in ensuring that services continued to be provided. Some local authorities have told us that they can make the bus subsidy deliver better value for money by working in partnership with operators to grow the bus market. The characteristics of local bus markets vary, so different solutions will be appropriate in different areas, which is why the Government believe that it is for local authorities to decide which route to pursue. This year, £43 million of BSOG funding will be paid directly to local authorities, rather than to bus operators, in relation to the services that councils fund. That will give communities much more control over how that money is spent. As my hon. Friend the Member for South Dorset noted, funding has been ring-fenced until the end of 2016-17, which provides three years of stability and certainty for operators.

My hon. Friend tempted me down the line of committing the Government to reinstate the full value of BSOG in years gone by, and he tempted me down the line of ring-fencing funding post-2017. Although I have heard his entreaty, he will not be surprised to learn that I will not be tempted or, rather, I shall resist that temptation this evening, as it would prejudice the work that we are doing on partnership working, where we are moving forward to deliver better services. It would be wrong, too, to ring-fence any expenditure, and I am sure that the Chancellor would not allow me to do so post-2017. None the less, the funding that has been ring-fenced until the end of 2016-17 provides a period of stability and certainty for operators.

The Government are committed to protecting the national bus travel concession, which is of huge benefit to about 11 million people, allowing free off-peak local travel anywhere in England. The concession provides older and disabled people with greater freedom and independence, as well as a lifeline to their community. It enables access to facilities in the local area, and it helps them to keep in touch with their families. It also provides access to employment for many people who might not otherwise have that opportunity. A number of my hon. Friends have discussed the way in which the Government allocate funding. The Department has set out in clear guidance how local authorities should remunerate local operators, taking account of local circumstances, but my hon. Friends will note that operators can appeal.

The hon. Member for Wells spoke about young people’s travel, which is a complex issue. There is no statutory obligation to provide discounted-price travel to young people, but many commercial and publicly funded reductions are available. It is for local authorities to judge whether that is good value when considering the services they provide for young people in their area. Doubtless, she has made entreaties to her local authority along those lines.

Bus services in rural areas are not just concerned with levels of public funding. Commercial operators provide services in those areas where there are enough passengers, and overall commercial mileage in some rural areas of England has increased. The Government accept that where that is not feasible local authorities have a vital role in supporting rural bus services. About 28% of bus mileage in predominantly rural authorities is operated under contract to local authorities. It is local authorities that are best placed to decide what support to provide in response to local views and need, and in the light of their overall funding priorities, particularly with regard to transport.

[Richard Drax]

While I have heard every word that the Minister has said—it is all wonderful stuff, and I welcome what the Government are doing—the key issue, certainly for us, is that although councils are trying to provide a bus service, they are so pushed for money that they cannot provide sufficient services at the appropriate times. That means getting people to work at 7 am and back home at 6 pm. The buses leave at 9 am and return at 3 pm: that is one of our major problems.

[Stephen Hammond]

I understand that problem and have set out the extensive amount of finance and will shortly set out some other solutions for rural areas. I hear what my hon. Friend says, but it is obviously for local authorities to establish demand and to decide how to use Government support. It is vital that authorities maximise the return on every penny of funding, which is why my Department met its commitment to publish revised guidance on best practice when procuring local bus services and other types of road transport for rural passengers, taking into account some of the challenges he mentions. As a result of the guidance, there has been a lot of innovation from councils up and down the country, but there is scope for more. Authorities should highlight and draw upon the good practice to help rural users. Much of what tonight’s speeches have demanded, such as providing a whole range of solutions, is for local authorities. The Government offer support and leadership, but I urge local authorities to consider the best practice.

We have been discussing fixed-route bus services tonight, but there are also community buses, dial-a-ride and other types of demand-responsive transport, such as taxis or the postal taxi mentioned earlier. My Department is undertaking further work to consider how to remove the barriers that prevent such services from operating more effectively. The Minister of State, Department for Transport, my hon. Friend Baroness Kramer, was right to emphasise that while there may be multiple solutions, it will be for local authorities to determine which is the best for them.

In conclusion, the Government believe in buses. Our vision is for a better bus with more of what passengers want, which, whether they are urban or rural, is a punctual, interconnected, greener and more accessible service with greater availability of smart ticketing. We will be considering next year the results of a pilot project in Norfolk that will potentially overcome some of the other ticketing issues that rural people experience. I absolutely accept that there is more to do, but the Government have shown that they accept that there is an onus on them, through the extensive support that they provide, to try to ensure a more competitive and greener bus network that will encourage more passengers, be they urban or rural.

Question put and agreed to.