Care and Support

Debate between Stephen Dorrell and Lord Lansley

Wednesday 11th July 2012 Commons Chamber

[Mr Stephen Dorrell (Charnwood) (Con)]

I welcome the package of measures that my right hon. Friend has announced, which represent important progress towards the delivery of many objectives that are, as we have heard, shared across the House. May I ask him two specific questions? First, he has published a welcome draft Bill showing that many of these aspirations can be brought into effect. Do the Government expect to be able to provide time to make that draft Bill law in the next Session of Parliament? Secondly, in the context of that Bill, does he hope that the continuing cross-party talks may yet provide the basis for answering the funding question that has bedevilled those talks for so long?

[Mr Lansley]

I am grateful to my right hon. Friend. It was neglectful of me not to mention that the White Paper and the announcement that I have made also drew on the recommendations and work of the Health Committee, and I am pleased to have been able to respond to its report as well.

First, matters relating to the legislative programme for the next Session will be announced in the normal way in the Gracious Speech. Secondly, I am determined that we will not only, I hope, have continuing cross-party talks but that they will be conducted, as I think that the shadow Secretary of State himself would wish, with the sector in a more open, public debate. If we were able to arrive at a position whereby, notwithstanding the fact that funding decisions might be made in the spending review, there was scope to put in place legislative provisions that allowed that to happen and could be agreed in time for the introduction of the draft Care and Support Bill, then we would look to make that happen. However, that is conditional at this stage.

Oral Answers to Questions

Debate between Stephen Dorrell and Lord Lansley

Tuesday 12th June 2012 Commons Chamber

[Mr Lansley]

Yes, I read that letter this morning. Today, elsewhere in the House, the permanent secretary to my Department and the chief executive of the NHS will give evidence to the Public Accounts Committee on precisely that issue. In the context of doing so, they will demonstrate how we have continued over the past two years to achieve a substantial year-on-year increase in the number of patients with diabetes who are accessing best-practice services.

[Mr Stephen Dorrell (Charnwood) (Con)]

I welcome the successful development of clinical commissioning groups, but does my right hon. Friend agree that their success in refashioning care throughout the whole of the health and social care system will depend on close relationships not just in the health service but across into social care and the world of social housing, too?

[Mr Lansley]

I do believe that and the legislation requires it of clinical commissioning groups and health and wellbeing boards. The relationship being built up between clinical leadership in the NHS and democratic leadership through health and wellbeing boards is an instrumental part of delivering that integrated care.

Health and Social Care Bill

Debate between Stephen Dorrell and Lord Lansley

Tuesday 28th February 2012 Commons Chamber

[Mr Lansley]

I am not sure the right hon. Gentleman even read the Deputy Prime Minister’s letter, judging from what he has just said. I will tell him exactly what the process is. The process is for detailed discussion in another place. There were 15 days of debate in Committee in another place. It is the habit in another place not to amend the Bill in Committee, but to use those debates in Committee as a basis for amendment on Report. The process is straightforward. My right hon. Friend the Deputy Prime Minister, together with Baroness Shirley Williams, explained to their Liberal Democrat colleagues some of the amendments on which we have been working together in order to make sure that there is further reassurance. [Interruption.] That is literally true.

Let me put the right hon. Gentleman right about something. What is at the heart of the Bill is improving the quality of care for patients. I note that he did not quote me or represent that he was quoting me. I have never said that competition is at the heart of the Bill. Competition is a means to an end, not an end in itself. The purpose of the Bill is to achieve quality. Where competition enables us to deliver better quality for patients, we should use it. Where integration of services and an absence of competition is in the interests of patients in delivering quality, that is the basis upon which the NHS should proceed. The Bill has been tremendously strengthened and is now a long-term sustainable basis for the NHS to deliver the quality of care for patients that we are looking for, while maintaining all the values of the NHS.

[Mr Stephen Dorrell (Charnwood) (Con)]

Has my right hon. Friend yet been able to understand how it can be that a party which, when in government, promoted practice-based commissioning that involved GPs in commissioning, promoted private sector investment in NHS institutions, and promoted the commissioning of care from private sector providers where that was in the best interests of patients now thinks all those principles undermine the national health service to which he, we and presumably the Opposition are still committed?

[Mr Lansley]

My right hon. Friend makes extremely good points. It is interesting that the right hon. Member for Leigh (Andy Burnham) appears to be trying to represent us as not agreeing about matters. He is chronically incapable of agreeing with himself. In June 2006 the then Prime Minister, Tony Blair, said that what the NHS needed in future was foundation trusts, practice-based commissioning, more involvement for the private sector and payment by results. The thing is that Labour in office did not achieve any of those things. It is only through the mechanism of the legislation that we are putting together that we are going to enable the NHS to achieve those things in a way that does not entail all the difficulties that Labour had, such as getting the private sector involvement with the NHS wrong. We are going to get those things right.

Breast Implants

Debate between Stephen Dorrell and Lord Lansley

Wednesday 11th January 2012 Commons Chamber

[Mr Lansley]

It may be called devolution. I respect the devolved Administrations and always inform them of what I am doing, where it is relevant to them. We do not recognise the advice that Wales received. Sir Bruce Keogh’s expert group, which included some of the foremost experts in plastic surgery, made clear recommendations last week for patients in England and concluded that there was no significant increased clinical risk in cases where implants are not replaced.

If the shadow Secretary of State commends what the Welsh Government have done—[Interruption.] Perhaps he did not, but if he or anyone were to commend it, they would need to recognise that it runs the risk of letting the private providers off the hook. I am very clear that they should provide an equivalent standard of care. As the right hon. Gentleman made clear, there are limitations on what can be done. I do not have powers and I did not inherit powers to control what the private providers do in the private sector. I have to tell the right hon. Gentleman, however, that I have reflected on the Health and Social Care Bill, which is a positive legislative step forward. Just as it allows Monitor as a health and social care sector regulator, on which we are consulting, to look at the prudential regulation of private providers in social care, so it would allow us to consider the role of Monitor as a health sector regulator in licensing private providers of private health care. It is thus a positive not a negative step forward. There is no comparison, as the right hon. Gentleman will recognise, between the role of the private sector providing private care and the private sector in the NHS, which is subject to the same duties and obligations as an NHS provider. The Bill does not lead to an increase in private sector provision, but in so far as there are private sector providers, they will be properly regulated in the NHS.

On the role of private providers, they may be insured and there may be warranties relating to these implants. We do not have data on this aspect, but I am clear that these providers have legal and, indeed, moral obligations. I particularly commend a letter issued this morning by the leaders of the profession—the two principal professional associations—to their surgical colleagues. Having talked about the standard of care in the NHS, the letter went on to say:

“Those working in the private sector are urged to support in similar fashion. We would hope that implanting surgeons would honour requests for replacement surgery free of surgical charge”.

The private providers that have not made this offer to the women for whom they are responsible can see that their surgical associates are willing to carry this out free of surgical charge, so I see no reason why they should not now step up and deliver the standard of care that women have a right to expect.

[Mr Stephen Dorrell (Charnwood) (Con)]

May I welcome my right hon. Friend’s statement and the prompt action he has taken over the last few weeks to address this issue? Does he agree that the first priority when these concerns came to light was to ensure that the women who have had these implants had clear, authoritative advice based on the evidence of the right way to treat them, and that the process he established under Sir Bruce Keogh has provided and will continue to provide exactly that authoritative evidence-based advice? Does he further agree that there are some longer-term policy issues around the regulation of this industry that need to be addressed, but in a more considered way and not tied up in the emotions of this immediate concern?

[Mr Lansley]

I am grateful to my right hon. Friend and agree with all his points. I would add that when the French Government informed us of their prospective announcement—I spoke to the French Health Minister the day before it—we gave the best advice to date, based on the MHRA’s knowledge of the toxicology tests and its discussions with the French regulator. What we have to do is to establish the extent to which surveillance of these implants over a number of years should have led to any different conclusion. It remains true, however, that there is no evidence of long-term health effects that would give rise—and would have given rise at that time—to a different recommendation from the one that we made.

NHS Future Forum

Debate between Stephen Dorrell and Lord Lansley

Tuesday 14th June 2011 Commons Chamber

[Mr Lansley]

Well, I was hoping that, having got past the abuse, the right hon. Gentleman would tell us whether he agreed with the NHS Future Forum, but he did not even mention it. He welcomed the listening and engagement exercise that we announced—he said it was the right thing and that it would be good government to do it—but then when an independent group of experts reports and makes recommendations, he ignores it and says he will oppose the Bill regardless. He did not listen to what people in the NHS were saying. I think it was shameful how he dismissed everything that has happened over the past year as though it did not matter at all—a year in which the coalition Government said we would increase resources to the NHS. We have done that and are committing to investing an extra £11.5 billion in the NHS over the next four years. That is money that, as we will continue to remind the British public, the Labour party told us we should not give to the NHS.

In the past year, the coalition Government and the NHS across the country have implemented a cancer drugs fund from which 2,500 more patients have benefited, and in the past four months, we have cut the number of breaches of the single-sex rule by three quarters, and the number of hospital infections by 22% and C. difficile infections by 15%. Some 750,000 more people are accessing dentistry, and waiting times for people going into hospital are down compared with March 2010. We said that we would reduce management costs, and we will do so, and we have taken 3,800 managers out of the NHS since the election, while the number of doctors has gone up. Six months ago, the right hon. Gentleman said that he supported the reform principles in the Bill. All he said today was sheer opportunism, but it will come back to haunt him, because the NHS will benefit from the changes we are proposing today. It will take greater ownership of its own service; patients will be empowered; and clinicians across the service will be empowered and will deliver better outcomes for patients, and when that happens, we will be able to say, “The Labour party would have denied the NHS the resources and the freedom and responsibility to deliver those better outcomes.”

[Mr Stephen Dorrell (Charnwood) (Con)]

Is not the key challenge facing the national health service today the need to reverse a decade of declining productivity bequeathed to us by the Labour party? Does my right hon. Friend agree that his statement today provides the basis for us to do that based on the evolution of effective commissioning engaging the entire clinical community, which will address the fragmentation of service and progress the integration of service around the needs of individual patients?

[Mr Lansley]

Yes, I agree with my right hon. Friend. It is precisely that process of engaging clinicians, who will come together to design services around the needs of patients in a way that delivers not just improving productivity, but improving quality of services for patients, that is at the heart of the shift from primary care trusts and strategic health authorities. Let’s face it: the Labour party spent a decade presiding over declining productivity, while the costs of bureaucracy and management in the NHS doubled. We will empower people in the NHS to deliver improving services and reduce bureaucracy. [Interruption.]

Oral Answers to Questions

Debate between Stephen Dorrell and Lord Lansley

Tuesday 7th June 2011 Commons Chamber

[Mr Lansley]

I can tell the right hon. Gentleman that in contrast to the last Labour Government it is our intention to increase the front-line staffing of the NHS relative to the staffing of the administration in the NHS. That is why, since the general election, there are 3,800 fewer managers in the NHS and 2,500 more doctors.

[Mr Stephen Dorrell (Charnwood) (Con)]

Can my right hon. Friend confirm that it is a key priority of the Government to reverse a decade of declining productivity in the health service in order to ensure that the resources that are committed by the Government deliver improved access and improved quality of patient care?

[Mr Lansley]

Yes, I can. My right hon. Friend is absolutely right about that. Over the last year in hospitals in particular we saw what was approaching a 15% reduction in productivity. That is why we are proceeding with ensuring that across the NHS we recognise not only that there are increasing demands on the NHS, which is why we are increasing the NHS budget by £ll.5 billion over four years, but that that money must be used increasingly effectively to deliver efficiency savings in excess of 4% each year so that we can improve the quality of services for patients.

Oral Answers to Questions

Debate between Stephen Dorrell and Lord Lansley

Tuesday 26th April 2011 Commons Chamber

[Mr Lansley]

I think I made it clear to the right hon. Gentleman in the House on 4 April that we were looking to pause, to listen, to reflect and to improve the Bill, and we are taking the opportunity to do so now, before Report and Third Reading.

[Mr Stephen Dorrell (Charnwood) (Con)]

Can my right hon. Friend confirm that in the listening exercise it is his intention, in addition to listening to representatives of local authorities and the public, to ensure that we fully take account of the views of representatives of the full range of clinical opinion within the health service—nurses, hospital doctors and community-based clinicians as well as GPs?

[Mr Lansley]

Yes. My right hon. Friend will know that we have done that in the past, and we continue to do so. Just as early implementers of health and wellbeing boards have an important voice in how local authorities will strengthen public accountability and democratic accountability, we also now have an opportunity that we did not have in the consultation last year for the new pathfinder consortia, as they come together—88% of the country is already represented by them—to have their voices heard. I hope that the public generally will exercise this opportunity too. I know that groups representative of patients are doing so and very much want to get involved in these discussions.

NHS Reform

Debate between Stephen Dorrell and Lord Lansley

Monday 4th April 2011 Commons Chamber

[Mr Lansley]

We heard from the Leader of the Opposition earlier that the NHS needed to change, but once again we have heard nothing from Labour Members about how it needs to change. It is not unusual to hear nothing from them. They say that we need to tackle the deficit, but they will not say how. They say that we must change the NHS, but they will not say how.

Interestingly, in January the right hon. Member for Wentworth and Dearne (John Healey) said that he agreed with the aims of the Bill. He said that he supported a

“greater role for clinicians in commissioning care, more involvement of patients, less bureaucracy and greater priority on improving health outcomes”.

At the last election, his manifesto said that he wanted all NHS trusts to become foundation trusts. It said that he wanted patients to have access to every provider, be it private sector, voluntary sector or NHS-owned. Now we do not know what the Labour party’s policy is at all, but what I do know is that the Government will give leadership to the NHS, and that we will give the NHS a strategy enabling it to deliver improving results in future.

The right hon. Gentleman clearly wrote his response to the statement before reading it. In fact, we have made it clear that we will listen to what is said about precisely the issues on which people in the NHS and people who depend on the NHS are united. They know which issues are really important. They know that we must be clear about accountability, and that there must be transparency. Clinicians throughout the health service want to work together, and want the structure of the service to help them to work together so that they can deliver more holistic and joined-up services to patients. We want that, and they want that. We will back up our strategy with detail, but from the right hon. Gentleman we heard no strategy, no detail, and no answers whatsoever.

We are clear about the principles that we are pursuing through the reform and modernisation of the national health service. We are listening, and we are engaging with those principles. We are listening to the people in the health service who have come together to implement those principles, so that we can help them to do so effectively. Labour Members have not even listened to those who threw them out at the last election, because they are still wedded to the past and to a failed, top-down, centralised, bureaucratic approach.

[Mr Stephen Dorrell (Charnwood) (Con)]

All who genuinely wish the NHS well and consider it to be an important part of our national heritage will welcome my right hon. Friend’s commitment to ensuring that clinical practice delivered by the NHS is kept up to date with the best available medical practice, and responds effectively to the wishes of patients. Will he continue to develop effective commissioning as the best way of delivering that, building on 20 years of commitment to the principle of commissioning under Governments of all political complexions since 1990?

[Mr Lansley]

I am grateful to my right hon. Friend. He knows and I know—and past Secretaries of State, with the exception of the right hon. Member for Holborn and St Pancras (Frank Dobson) also knew—that in order to deliver the best possible care in the NHS, we needed to engage clinical leadership more effectively. That is what these reforms are about. The modernisation of the NHS is about better and stronger clinical leadership delivering better commissioning of care and thereby helping to deliver better provision of care, and about allying that with democratic accountability at a local level. Neither of those things has happened sufficiently in the past, but both are at the heart of our Bill.

Oral Answers to Questions

Debate between Stephen Dorrell and Lord Lansley

Tuesday 7th December 2010 Commons Chamber

[Mr Lansley]

The hon. Gentleman should not believe all that he reads in the newspapers. The curious thing is that the Minister with responsibility for Government policy is engaged with Government policy. That is a good and positive thing. The hon. Gentleman referred to the Royal College of General Practitioners and to Dr Gerada. In response to the White Paper, the RCGP said:

“General Practice is the central plank in our world-class healthcare system. The College thoroughly agrees that it makes a great deal of sense to give GPs, with their unique patient-centred perspective, a central role in commissioning and directing healthcare services.”

Dr Gerada said:

“I fully support placing clinicians at the centre of commissioning decisions”.

[Mr Stephen Dorrell (Charnwood) (Con)]

I very much welcome the steps that my right hon. Friend is taking to encourage the early emergence of pathfinder consortiums, so that the shape of the new commissioning structure is made clear as quickly as possible. Given the nature of the quality, innovation, productivity and prevention challenge—QIPP—that the health service faces, does he agree that the process must be carried forward as quickly as possible so that the new framework is clear for all concerned as quickly as possible?

[Mr Lansley]

Yes, I do. I was delighted by the response of general practice to the emerging consortiums, because one of the central reasons it wants to make progress quickly is to shape clinical service redesign, which is at the heart of delivering the efficiency savings that will enable us all to improve outcomes.

Public Health White Paper

Debate between Stephen Dorrell and Lord Lansley

Tuesday 30th November 2010 Commons Chamber

[Mr Stephen Dorrell (Charnwood) (Con)]

I congratulate my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State on a White Paper that redeems his pre-election pledge to raise public health to a higher level of priority than was accorded to it not merely by the last Labour Government, but by the Conservative Government in which I held my right hon. Friend’s responsibilities. I congratulate him on delivering the first step towards that commitment, and particularly on the transfer of public health responsibility to local government. The White Paper proposals will fulfil the promise to make public health a cross-Government responsibility, and will deliver what has been described as the “fully engaged scenario”. That is the only way in which we can deliver our broader public health objectives.

[Mr Lansley]

I am grateful to my right hon. Friend for his comments. Derek Wanless said that we needed an “engaged” scenario back in 2002, but it simply did not happen. I know that many in public health feel that the transfer giving local government the lead responsibility on public health—which is radical and new—will, in many respects, bring public health back home. It allies the public health initiative and resources to the responsibilities of local government on economic development, the environment, planning, housing and education in precisely the ways that will influence the wider determinants of health.

Oral Answers to Questions

Debate between Stephen Dorrell and Lord Lansley

Tuesday 2nd November 2010 Commons Chamber

[Mr Lansley]

We will, of course, respond to the consultation in due course, but support for the principles of the White Paper was widespread and came from local government and the medical and nursing professions. The issues that we will address in the consultation were mainly about implementation of the principles, but support for the principles was widespread.

[Mr Stephen Dorrell (Charnwood) (Con)]

Will my right hon. Friend confirm that the Government’s policy is to ensure that over the next four years we deliver efficiency gains from the health service, valued by the chief executive at between £15 billion and £20 billion? As that target was first set out by the Labour party when it was in government, will my right hon. Friend take an early opportunity to invite the new shadow Secretary of State to endorse that programme, and to support its specific execution as each change is introduced?

NHS White Paper

Debate between Stephen Dorrell and Lord Lansley

Monday 12th July 2010 Commons Chamber

[Mr Lansley]

I am just astonished that the shadow Secretary of State seems to have gone to the barricades for the primary care trusts. The primary care trusts and strategic health authorities are organisations that, under his watch as Secretary of State—for about a year—increased their management costs by 23%. In the year for which he was in charge, they spent £261 million on management consultants. Before the election, when it had a majority of Labour Members, the Select Committee on Health said that PCT commissioning was weak and that it was not delivering what was intended. He set up a programme called world class commissioning—it never worked. Central to delivering better commissioning in the health service is ensuring that those people who incur the expenditure—the general practitioners, on behalf of their patients—and who decide about the referral of patients are the same people who, through the commissioning process, determine the shape of the services in their area. It is more accountable.

How often have all of us, on both sides of the House, asked Labour Ministers about what primary care trusts are doing locally in terms of service change only to be told, “It’s nothing to do with us; it’s all happening locally”? We are going to be very clear about the accountability. One thing that the coalition programme has enabled us to do, as two parties bringing our programmes together, is to strengthen the accountability to local authorities. Local authorities, through their strategies that mesh NHS services, public health and social care, will ensure that major service changes and the design of services reflect the interconnection between those things. Those who have complaints and problems will be able to have them addressed through HealthWatch and through their local authority. We will be able, through local authorities, to ensure that the commissioning support to GP commissioning consortiums can be more effective.

The shadow Secretary of State talked about the Commonwealth Fund. I do not know whether he has even read the Commonwealth Fund report, but it said that the UK health care system was the second worst on hospital-acquired infections, that the UK delivers the poorest level of patient-centred care and that, on outcomes, we performed the second worst overall on mortality amenable to health care.

The right hon. Gentleman stood up and said that cancer mortality rates have improved. They have—since the 1970s, and all over the world. However, the issue is where we stand in relation to the rest of the world. If we were to meet the European average on cancer survivals, 5,000 more people would live each year rather than die. If we were to do the best in Europe, 10,000 more would live each year. For stroke, the figure is 9,000. We have to measure ourselves on the outcomes relative to the other health systems that are comparable to ours.

Nine years ago, the right hon. Gentleman’s Prime Minister, Tony Blair, said that we must spend as much as Europe. Through this White Paper and the reforms that we will bring in, we are determined to achieve results for patients that are at least as good as those in the rest of Europe. It is not just about inputs and spending, but about the results we achieve. The right hon. Gentleman, on behalf of his party, has just abandoned the reforms that his Prime Minister, Tony Blair, put forward. In 2006, Tony Blair said that we must have patient choice, practice-based commissioning, the independent sector and foundation trusts—reforms that Labour failed to deliver and, indeed, undermined. We, as a coalition Government, are now determined to put those reforms in place to deliver results for patients.

[Mr Stephen Dorrell (Charnwood) (Con)]

I congratulate my right hon. Friend on setting out a clear vision for the NHS that is committed to high-quality outcomes for patients and good value for money for the taxpayer. Does he agree that the delivery of that objective depends critically on effective commissioning? Does he recall that the last Labour Government said that engaging GPs with the commissioning process was the key to success? Does he recall that the White Paper setting out the plan for practice-based commissioning said that GP commissioning was not a new idea to the NHS? Indeed, it is not. He is to be congratulated on holding out the prospect that, at last, this idea can be made good and made powerful in the interests of patients.

[Mr Lansley]

I am grateful to my right hon. Friend for his comments. In his capacity as the Chairman of the Select Committee on Health, we will be responding to him very shortly regarding the Select Committee’s report from before the election on commissioning in the NHS. What he has just said is absolutely right; we have to be able—this is a central task in commissioning—to bring together the responsibility for the management of patient care with the responsibility for the commissioning of services. The current situation is akin to a shopping trolley being pushed to the checkout while the primary care trust is standing there with a credit card, bleating about whether things should be taken out of the trolley. We have to ensure that the design of services follows the best clinical leadership in terms of the services that are required for patients. He and I very much agree on precisely that objective.

Mid Staffordshire NHS Foundation Trust

Debate between Stephen Dorrell and Lord Lansley

Wednesday 9th June 2010 Commons Chamber

[Mr Lansley]

Yes; my hon. Friend is absolutely right. That is why I have made it clear that that is the first priority for our Department in how we are going to improve the NHS. As a nurse, my hon. Friend will know that what she describes is absolutely how many people across the NHS want to conduct their professional relationships. They have been so frustrated, demoralised and demotivated by not being able to deliver care in the way that they wish—focusing on the needs and expectations of patients.

[Mr Stephen Dorrell (Charnwood) (Con)]

Is not the important issue that the terrible events in Mid Staffordshire are not purely a local issue, terrible though they are for Mid Staffordshire? It is vital that lessons are learned for application right across the NHS. What were the commissioners doing? Where were the regulators? What price professional accountability? Why was all that allowed to happen over so long? Perhaps the most difficult question of all is this: why was it not the first time that this had happened in the NHS?

[Mr Lansley]

My right hon. Friend is absolutely right. That is why we have to move from all those questions to some serious answers—so that we can have the reform that the NHS so badly needs. I know and he knows that this is about not just a different set of structures, but a change of culture and a focus in the NHS on patients and results for patients to the exclusion of other bureaucratic impositions. There is such immense bureaucracy—PCTs, SHAs and regulators—that everything should have worked perfectly, but it did not. Why? Because in all of that, the underlying pressures in the service were not focused on results for patients. We have to drive towards that conclusion.