Local Audit (Public Access to Documents) Bill

Debate between Simon Hoare and Wendy Morton

2nd reading: House of Commons
Friday 25th November 2016 Commons Chamber

[Wendy Morton]

I am grateful to my hon. Friend for her intervention. If I am successful with this Bill, I will perhaps have to try to beat her record and go for a hat trick. There is a challenge for her.

Going back to my hon. Friend the Member for Bosworth, it struck me that there is a link between my constituency and his—the A5, which runs to Hinckley, but also through Brownhills in my constituency.

Although the title of my Bill is the Local Audit (Public Access to Documents) Bill, it is not really about audit at all. I was going to say that the title might be a little misleading, but I am not sure whether I am allowed to use that term, so let me say that the title does not really encapsulate what the Bill is all about. Let me explain that a little further.

The aim of the Bill is further to improve the transparency and accountability of local public bodies. Because it would amend the Local Audit and Accountability Act 2014 in respect of the people who are able to inspect accounting documentation, the title has to reflect that parentage. I hope Members will indulge me in explaining that point today. This is a very short piece of legislation, but I believe it is one that we should welcome, because it would make a single and very simple change to the 2014 Act.

The Bill is designed explicitly to amend legislation so that journalists, including citizen journalists, can have the right for one month to inspect the accounting records of the financial year just ended of any relevant authority and to request copies of those documents—without being required to have an interest in that authority.

[Simon Hoare (North Dorset) (Con)]

When I sat on the Investigatory Powers Public Bill Committee a few months ago, we spent quite a bit of time talking about journalists and how we should define journalists for the purpose of the legislation. Could anybody with an iPhone, for example, legitimately call themselves a journalist? Will my hon. Friend explain in greater depth to assuage my concern that her Bill might put an undue cost pressure on local authorities if officers had to find time to meet any requests, particularly when anybody could classify themselves as both a citizen and a journalist?

--- Later in debate ---

[Simon Hoare (North Dorset) (Con)]

I take my hat off to my hon. Friend the Member for Aldridge-Brownhills (Wendy Morton) for her bravery in entering the private Member’s Bill raffle for two years running. I entered last year and was drawn ninth, and I am only just recovering from the process. For my hon. Friend to do it for two years running is either commendable or just downright greedy. I will leave the House to work out which it might be.

[Wendy Morton]

My hon. Friend is being very generous in his comments. Should he wish to follow the direction I have taken, perhaps I could point him down the route of presentation Bills. If one is willing to queue outside the Public Bill Office, it is possible to get a presentation Bill slot. If he would like me to explain a little more about that after the debate, I will be more than happy to do so.

[Simon Hoare]

Tempting as the thrill of being inducted overnight by my hon. Friend in the arcane rituals of securing a place for a Bill is, I hope she will not be too offended if I find I have a prior engagement when that invitation arrives at my desk.

--- Later in debate ---

[Simon Hoare]

“Up to a point, Lord Copper” is how I would answer that. My hon. Friend perhaps has very good eyesight, and she would have to in order to read my notes, but she slightly pre-empts something I am coming on to. First, however, I want to talk about “related documents”.

Before coming to this place, I was a district councillor and a county councillor, like many people in the House. I was involved in trying to raise additional funds for our local authority by purchasing commercial property. Some of those transactions would take a little time, but there was documentation available to cabinet members so that we could look at the figures. I take my hon. Friend’s point, because it goes back to my earlier point that local councils have no money themselves, only council tax payers’ money, but we need to think about the precise time when often commercially sensitive financial data would be available and would fall under the Bill.

I also note—I do not say this necessarily with overt seriousness—that I take exception to one word in the Bill, and my hon. Friend the Member for Aldridge-Brownhills should be alert to the gravity and depth of my exception. There is an odd juxtaposition in the marvellous language of the Bill—that wonderful prose with which any Bill begins, which we are all, of course, familiar with:

“Be it enacted by the Queen’s most Excellent Majesty, by and with the advice and consent of the Lords Spiritual and Temporal, and Commons, in this present Parliament assembled, and by the authority of the same, as follows”.

We then refer to “citizen journalists”. It is the word “citizen” that we should all take exception to. It is a word that republics may very well use, but we are subjects of Her Britannic Majesty. Therefore, while the words “subject journalists” might not necessarily be as easy on the tongue, they do reflect a better sense of our island nation’s history. If my hon. Friend is lucky enough to secure a Second Reading of her Bill, and daft enough to put me on the Committee, I may very well wish to table an amendment on that issue. Whether I would press it to a Division, I will leave that to my hon. Friend to cogitate on over the coming hours.

[Wendy Morton]

I am grateful to my hon. Friend, because he is clearly making a pitch to be on my Bill Committee, should I be successful today. All I will say to him is that I will add him to my list and I will consider that request in due course.

NHS (Charitable Trusts Etc.) Bill

Debate between Simon Hoare and Wendy Morton

Friday 6th November 2015 Commons Chamber

[Wendy Morton]

Indeed. I had often wondered why my mum and dad named me Wendy, and that was obviously the reason.

Like many other people, I knew of the tremendous work of Great Ormond Street hospital. Each year, children from all over the United Kingdom, many of whom suffer from rare, complex and life-threatening conditions that cannot be treated elsewhere, go to that specialist hospital to benefit from its specialist care. Sadly, for many children Great Ormond Street is the last hope, and, although it is one of the world’s leading children’s research hospitals, for some of those conditions there are no known cures.

I was also aware of the very special link with J.M. Barrie, whose generous bequest to the hospital consisted of the royalties for commercial publications and public performances of his play “Peter Pan”. What I did not know, however, was that legislation was needed to enable the right to those royalties to be given to the new, independent Great Ormond Street Hospital Children’s Charity to which the current NHS charity is in the course of being converted. The right to the royalties is currently conferred on the special trustees for Great Ormond Street hospital who are appointed by the Secretary of State. Baroness Blackstone first raised the need to amend legislation to enable Great Ormond Street hospital to continue to benefit from the Barrie bequest during the passage, in the other place, of the Bill that became the Deregulation Act 2015, and the Government agreed to introduce legislation at the earliest opportunity. My Bill will do that by amending the Copyright, Designs and Patents Act 1988.

I have to say that my warm and comforting thoughts of Great Ormond Street vanished temporarily when I read more of the briefing that had been prepared for the Bill, and discovered a proposal to remove powers from the Secretary of State for Health. I was a little concerned. Could I have been handed a Trojan rocking horse? Well, I can assure Members that if I had been, I would not be presenting the Bill today, because it also paves the way for sensible housekeeping on the part of NHS charities, the Secretary of State and his Department. As a new, eager and enthusiastic Member of Parliament, and one who wishes to see less bureaucracy, less duplication and less Government interference, I think it fair to say that the opportunity to remove some of the Secretary of State’s powers had a certain attraction.

Before I deal with the details of the Bill, let me assure you, Mr Speaker—and I hope you will not be too disappointed—that this Wendy will not be flying through the sky, or indeed the Chamber, on an adventure with a mischievous little boy called Peter Pan and a fairy named Tinker Bell, although I shall remain firmly on my guard for Captain Hook and ticking crocodiles.

Let me start with the background to the Bill, which, although it might seem technical in parts, is necessary and important. NHS charities are regulated under charity law but are also linked to NHS bodies and bound by NHS legislation. They are charitable trusts established under NHS legislation and have as their trustee an NHS body such as a foundation trust or trustees appointed by the Secretary of State for an NHS body. NHS charities are distinct from independent charities, which are established solely under charity law. As we would expect, funds donated to the NHS must be held separately from Exchequer funding provided by the taxpayer. These charities exist to support the beneficiaries and there is a special relationship between the charities and the trusts with which they are associated.

The first part of the Bill makes provision to remove the Secretary of State for Health’s powers to appoint trustees for NHS bodies in England and to appoint special trustees in England for specific hospitals. It also amends primary legislation in this regard. It fulfils a Government commitment made in 2014 following a 2012 Department of Health review and consultation on the governance of NHS charities. The outcome of the consultation was that NHS charities should be allowed to convert to independence should they so choose and the Secretary of State for Health’s powers to appoint trustees to NHS bodies under the National Health Service Act 2006 should be removed at the earliest legislative opportunity.

You may well ask why, Mr Speaker, and I can understand that question, but please let me try to explain. A number of the larger NHS charities called for reform because they were concerned that the NHS legislative framework limited their freedom to grow and develop their charitable activity to best support their beneficiaries and to demonstrate to potential donors visible independence from Government.

[Simon Hoare (North Dorset) (Con)]

I rise not as a ticking crocodile but to ask my hon. Friend to assure the House that notwithstanding the provisions in the Bill, which I support fully, the NHS and the public purse will continue to have a pair of eyes and ears around the trustee table as there will be the ability to nominate a trustee to sit on this new independent body to ensure that trustees do not, in a flight of fancy, suddenly go off to Cap Ferrat for the weekend and put everything on number six.

[Wendy Morton]

My hon. Friend makes a useful point. The important point is that whereas the NHS charity can benefit from this new independent model, there will always be accountability. This is not public money but money that comes from benefactors and donors, so it is right and proper that the trust instilled in the process of giving is maintained at all times.

--- Later in debate ---

[Wendy Morton]

That is the beauty of being in the Chamber on a Friday, Mr Speaker.

[Simon Hoare]

Has my hon. Friend noticed the relief among Opposition Members that there is no one of Scottish heritage in the Chamber?

[Wendy Morton]

I have not, but I am grateful to my hon. Friend.

I have introduced the Bill to deal with the importance of legacy. This very special gift to Great Ormond Street hospital of the rights to “Peter Pan” royalties is currently conferred on the special trustees appointed by the Secretary of State to the hospital. Those trustees, as I have mentioned, wished to take advantage of the Government policy allowing NHS charities to move to independent status, and have partly completed their conversion to the charitable company known as Great Ormond Street Hospital Children’s Charity, which will enable them to take advantage of the benefits of independence. However, the conversion will be fully completed only if the rights to the royalties to “Peter Pan” are conferred on the charity, in the special trustees, ensuring that the royalties continue to be used for the benefit of Great Ormond Street hospital.

As I explained at the beginning of my speech, my private Member’s Bill was introduced following a Department of Health review and consultation on the governance of NHS Charities. The decision to move to independent status or revert to the corporate trustee model is entirely for each charity to make. All of the 16 charities to which I have referred have either made the decision or have indicated that they will do so, which shows the support for the measure. The move to independence will provide greater freedom to attract additional funding, reduce bureaucracy by leaving the charities under the sole authority of the Charity Commission, and give greater liability protection for trustees.

It is also worth recognising that NHS charities simply would not be able to achieve as much as they do without the massive contribution of trustees. This week, as I am sure you are aware, Mr Speaker, is trustees week, so it is only right and proper that we recognise and pay tribute to the valuable contribution that trustees make up and down the country.

I shall now sum up my private Member’s Bill. Fundamentally, the NHS (Charitable Trusts Etc) Bill seeks to support the work of NHS charities. First, and very specifically, it makes provision to confer the rights to the “Peter Pan” royalties on the new Great Ormond Street Hospital Children’s Charity. That will enable it to take full advantage of the move to independent status, providing greater freedom to attract additional funding and reduce bureaucracy, by leaving it under the sole authority of the Charity Commission.

By repealing the powers of the Secretary of State for Health to appoint trustees to NHS bodies in England and to appoint special trustees in England, the Bill draws to a conclusion the transition process for NHS charities, which are expected to move either to an independent model or to a corporate model. It creates certainty and clarity within the existing complex bureaucratic structure. It provides greater freedoms to attract additional funding and gives trustees much greater protection from liability.

During the summer and in recent weeks I have spoken to many people about my Bill and I am very reassured by the support it has received, including from Great Ormond Street hospital and other NHS charities. I feel confident that Members in all parts of the House recognise that this Bill is worthy of a Second Reading.

I have had the opportunity to indulge in a journey back to my childhood. While some Members here today may have been watching the latest Bond movie, I have been catching up with Disney’s Peter Pan and my reading on the train has been J.M. Barrie. On this occasion no one at home has been able to complain.

“Peter Pan” is a well-loved fairy tale, but this Bill is for real. It is a piece of legislation which I trust I have explained to Members, and which is wanted by NHS charities and is necessary. This Bill is worthy of a safe passage. I do not want it to be the Never Bird, to fly out of the window, turn second star to the right and straight on to morning, ending up in Never Land, where the lost boys play and crocodiles tick. I commend the Bill to the House.

--- Later in debate ---

[Simon Hoare]

The hon. Gentleman has invited me to stray from the immediate purport of the Bill. Let me avail myself briefly of that invitation, and agree with him wholeheartedly. The people who wander up and down our streets waylaying busy shoppers, business men and women and commuters trying to elicit bank details and donations, and those who worry and harass people in their homes with telephone calls seeking charitable donations, are a curse and a menace. I believe that the authorities and Her Majesty’s Government are alert to that, and I rather hope that during the course of this Parliament we shall see some redress in respect of an issue that blights the lives of many of our constituents. My hon. Friend the Member for Aldridge-Brownhills may wish to clarify the position, but I am not aware that Great Ormond Street raises funds in that way, although I do not think that the issue is crucial to the Bill.

[Wendy Morton]

The Bill is purely about 16 NHS charities and their move to independence, and about Great Ormond Street. I am straying a little here, but I think that there may be issues relating to other charities that come to light occasionally. My Bill, however, is purely about the NHS charities, which are a very specific and, in my view, a very special group.

[Simon Hoare]

rose—