Dairy Industry

Debate between Simon Hart and Roger Williams

Wednesday 5th November 2014 Westminster Hall

[Simon Hart]

I thank the hon. Lady, who is a near neighbour. Yes, I will be making that point. The code and the adjudicator have been in place long enough now for some positive benefit to have been felt. The farming community has not yet convinced me, however, that the powers of the code and the adjudicator have been exercised as satisfactorily as they might have been.

[Roger Williams (Brecon and Radnorshire) (LD)]

Does my hon. Friend agree that it is intolerable that producers have to give the buyers of their milk more notice about a customer change than the buyer of the milk has to give about a change in price?

[Simon Hart]

My hon. Friend makes a good point. Of course that is right, and it is why we need to look at the relationship between producer and processor and between processor and retailer.

My third point, which I was getting to, is that added confusion is provided by the fact that there are so many different contracts for so many different things, written in so many different ways, making it difficult to find any body of farmers of any significant number who have a consistent contractual relationship.

National Parks (Planning Policy)

Debate between Simon Hart and Roger Williams

Wednesday 11th September 2013 Westminster Hall

[Simon Hart]

I am grateful for that intervention. We can look at it in two ways. First, the inward investment linked to national parks is hugely valuable in of our adjoining constituencies, but—this is my penultimate point—at the moment there is no provision in the planning application system for officers to consider social and economic factors. Ultimately, landscape and ecological factors always take precedence, which is a problem.

[Roger Williams (Brecon and Radnorshire) (LD)]

I thank my hon. Friend for giving way again. He raises the important issue of accountability. All planning authorities have a difficult job to do. National parks do not benefit from having a democratic process. Does he agree that direct elections to national park authorities would help a great deal and have proved to be exceptionally successful in Scotland?

[Simon Hart]

My hon. Friend second-guesses one of my recommendations. Although elected councillors sit on national park planning authorities, I think members of the public feel that those authorities are still somewhat out of the reach of the normal democratic grasp. That might be an ill-founded belief, but I think that national parks are a law unto themselves and there is no way for people to penetrate the system.

RSPCA (Prosecutions)

Debate between Simon Hart and Roger Williams

Tuesday 29th January 2013 Westminster Hall

[Simon Hart]

I will probably disappoint the whole House by not mentioning the H-word at all during my speech, but I take the hon. Gentleman’s point. Nothing I say today will in any way offer comfort to those who wish to break the law of the land; nothing I say will alter that. Anyone who might think there is some kind of scam going on here might be disappointed by my comments.

The RSPCA is a prosecutor that does politics in a big way. It needs to raise about £120 million a year to keep its engines running. The debate is about the conflict that arises when CPS criteria are applied in cases where the RSPCA might have a political or commercial interest.

[Roger Williams (Brecon and Radnorshire) (LD)]

My hon. Friend and all other hon. Members will be aware that the RSPCA has limited funds, like all charities. Those of us who have worked with animals all our life welcome the presence of local RSPCA officers, who are able to give advice, help and support to people who manage animals. Less of that is happening because more money is being spent in other ways.

[Simon Hart]

My hon. Friend makes a valuable point, and I would love to be able to quote one or two RSPCA regional officers who have mentioned to me their frustration at being underfunded while reading in the papers of enormous sums being spent on cases in which the animal welfare benefit achieved is doubtful.

Rural Bank Closures

Debate between Simon Hart and Roger Williams

Tuesday 21st February 2012 Westminster Hall

[Roger Williams]

I believe that the Government have a role to play, and such a summit may be the way forward. We could also support trials of community banks in which a number of different banks come together to provide banking facilities, thereby cutting costs for individual banks but maintaining a facility for the community.

[Simon Hart (Carmarthen West and South Pembrokeshire) (Con)]

Should we not be a little careful about taking this issue out on the banks that are still in rural areas? We should be going after those banks that were first or second to leave an area, not those that have stuck it for as long as they have.

[Roger Williams]

My hon. Friend makes a good point, but the responsibility lies with all the banks. They have got to come together a find a way of addressing the problem.

--- Later in debate ---

[Roger Williams]

I thank the hon. Gentleman, who raises an important point. Information provided to me indicates that two thirds of customers between the ages of 25 and 45 will use internet banking facilities, while only a third of people over 65 have the aptitude to take advantage of such opportunities.

[Simon Hart]

That is one issue, but does my hon. Friend agree that another is whether people have the broadband access in the first place to enable to make use of these things?

Fuel Prices

Debate between Simon Hart and Roger Williams

Tuesday 15th February 2011 Westminster Hall

[Simon Hart (Carmarthen West and South Pembrokeshire) (Con)]

I congratulate my hon. Friend the Member for Thirsk and Malton (Miss McIntosh) on securing this important debate. I apologise to her, the Minister and yourself, Mr Turner, for possibly having to leave before the Minister has completed her wind-ups.

I shall try to bring together some of the comments made this morning by mentioning two examples from my constituency that illustrate the problem we have. The first issue is something we have not referred to this morning: the cost of domestic fuel for purposes other than simply driving. I thank my constituent Colin Keen for raising that matter. I shall give a quick example. Between Christmas eve and about the middle of January, people who were tied into domestic fuel contracts with a company called Flogas had a 46% increase in their fuel prices. That is an unsustainable and unjustifiable increase, which has a considerable indirect and direct effect on the rural community and the rural business network. It would be helpful for the Minister to address the problem experienced—at least in my part of the world—by a number of householders who are on large estates. They are tied into lengthy fuel contracts that they cannot reasonably or, in some cases, legally get out of. Their domestic fuel prices are apparently being adjusted without any reference being made to them and without them being able to do anything about it at all.

The second example I shall refer to is that of another constituent, Mr Barry Jones. He has studied local supermarkets and has pointed out that we are not necessarily getting a fair crack of the whip from them. He highlighted that Tesco in the rural town of Carmarthen is charging different prices from Tesco in the more urban setting of Llanelli down the road. There is up to 4p a litre difference. Tesco in Carmarthen argues that it is setting its prices in line with local suppliers. That is fundamentally untrue; it is not. It is setting its price at a rather different rate. I cannot help but think that such a situation is slightly ironic when I see a Tesco tanker with a slogan on it that reads: “Why pay more?” The answer is: because we have no choice. Perhaps we can address the grip that the five big supermarkets seem to have over every aspect of our lives, particularly in rural communities.

My hon. Friend the Member for Thirsk and Malton made a further point in her introductory comments about the overall inflationary effect of the issue on rural communities. What we are seeing—and what was being reported on the BBC this morning—is that there has been a much more profound increase in the price of things we need over and above the price of things we want. Fuel hikes have a very different downstream impact on the things we need compared with the things we occasionally want.

That brings me neatly to a further comment about the definition of rurality, which has been touched on in different ways by a number of hon. Members this morning. Several years ago, I tried to get a proper definition of rurality and, perhaps rashly, I asked the pollsters Ipsos MORI for one. It did not have a definition of rural and the people I asked simply said to me, “Well, it’s anything that isn’t urban.” If I may respectfully say so, that is a particularly unhelpful suggestion. Rurality comes in very different forms: isolated, very isolated, fairly isolated and, simply, rural. We need a clearer indication from the Minister and perhaps other interested bodies of what rurality and isolation really mean. I can foresee that some difficult choices and decisions will have to be taken and that they will be based on a line on a map that might mean everything to a bureaucrat, but that will mean absolutely nothing to those of us who live and breathe rurality every day. We might have constituents who fall the wrong side of a line and are prejudiced against—I accept that that might be unintentionally—as a consequence. That definition is important.

We have been told that up to 600 filling stations are closing every year, which means that people have to travel that much further to get their essential fuel. We are told that local authorities in certain parts of the country are cutting back on their rural bus services because of the increase in fuel prices and the downstream effect of that. However, we cannot lose sight of the direct and indirect effects of the issues discussed in this morning’s debate. The matter is affecting directly and indirectly pensioners, care workers, volunteers and hauliers. I can think of two hauliers in my constituency that are based in isolated rural areas so that they can be close to the ports of Pembroke dock and Fishguard. They are in an ideal location, but they can pretty well do nothing about fuel prices. They cannot even go over to Ireland—the Republic—and get a better price. Such price increases are playing havoc with their cash flow.

[Roger Williams]

The hon. Gentleman’s hauliers, like my hauliers, suffer competition from people who come over the channel with a full tank of fuel and carry out transport business. That is a great disadvantage to our hauliers, who have to pay the full amount applicable in this country.

[Simon Hart]

That is a good point. I think I recently read a coalition announcement that a surcharge might be applied to those foreign hauliers. It is worth remembering that hauliers cannot function without three things: vehicles, drivers and fuel. We cannot simply turn around and say that they have to address their overheads in the way we might do so with other businesses. They cannot function without those three vital ingredients.

I shall finish by touching on the big society—I think I have read about that in the news in the past 24 hours—and the social mobility that will come as a result of that. Every hon. Member who has spoken this morning has mentioned the effect of fuel prices, whether domestic or for vehicles, on their daily lives and on how they conduct their businesses. Every one of those observations could have been a direct reference to the big society. We cannot deliver the big society in rural Wales or rural Britain under the current conditions. There are people out there for whom the big society has been a part of their daily life for years, but it is becoming increasingly difficult to be champions of the big society because of fuel duty.

I am not high enough up the political food chain—nor, indeed, are other hon. Members here—to make these decisions, but they need to be made and, as an hon. Member said, they need to be made urgently. Whether it is a rebate, whether it is a stabiliser, whether it is a freeze on duty, or whether it is a combination of those things, the most pressing need for rural Britain if it is to be able to remain in business and deliver the big society is clarity and urgency. I hope that the Minister can address them both this morning.

Intensive Dairy Farming

Debate between Simon Hart and Roger Williams

Tuesday 14th December 2010 Westminster Hall

[Simon Hart (Carmarthen West and South Pembrokeshire) (Con)]

I join in congratulating my hon. and learned Friend the Member for Sleaford and North Hykeham (Stephen Phillips) on securing this debate. Any discussion in this building about the plight of rural communities, in particular the agricultural aspects of it, is encouraging.

If I may, I would like to start with some of the economic context which my hon. and learned Friend mentioned, and quote some figures. I do this as a brother-in-law of a dairy farmer, the son of a dairy farmer, and the husband of a dairy farmer’s daughter—hon. Members will get a general idea of my position. At present—admittedly, this is only one set of figures—farmers are producing milk at a loss of between 1p and 2.5p per litre. The dairies sell their products for a profit in the region of 4p to 5p, yet certain supermarkets—I shall try to be careful about naming them—are selling at a profit of 22p a litre. That is the economic context which my hon. and learned Friend mentioned. I absolutely agree with him that the buying public, if they were aware of the muscle that is applied by supermarkets, would greet that knowledge with a certain amount of disdain and, indeed, disgust.

Let me take that a stage further. One supermarket prides itself on paying its suppliers a rather higher price—about 28p a litre. If the truth was known that only 800 suppliers—some 10%—qualify for that price, the public would raise an eyebrow. In addition, the supermarket in question does not fork out that extra amount itself. Instead, it has insisted on the middle man at the dairy negotiating a more stringent price with the supplier. What did the dairy do? The dairy froze its payments to farmers who are not providing that supermarket, which meant consequentially that their price was reduced. Although that supermarket is obtaining good public relations for distributing press releases talking about fair trade for farmers, it has not been impacted on at all. Yet all those farmers who are not lucky enough to provide that supermarket chain have been penalised. That is the actual, factual economic context behind this important debate. That is why—there is no other reason at all—we are looking at the prospect of super- dairies, if that is the right expression.

I want to inject a degree of measured middle ground, if I may. It is obvious that, increasingly, farmers recognise that scale is the only way that they can make money. I am not talking about making large sums, but about making sufficient money not to go bust and to be able to invest in new technology, which is not just desirable for milk production, but is required by law in the current economic and legal climate.

I represent an area of west Wales in Carmarthenshire, in probably one of the largest milk-producing areas in the UK, where there is a significant problem of tuberculosis in cattle. Fortunately, that is a debate for another day. I am aware, through my constituents, that there is an attraction to housing cattle indoors as far as possible, because doing so reduces the risk of infection from TB and enables farmers to bulk buy feed and bedding materials. Hon. Members will be aware that feed has never been more expensive than it is this year.

It is also clear that production on a larger scale reduces the chances of pollution. We are all aware, sadly, of the incidences of pollution as a consequence of leaking slurry tanks and the like over the years. Fortunately, there has been a decrease in such instances, partly because of housing measures that people have put in place and are increasingly under pressure to implement.

There is an argument, whether it is proven or not, that indoor milk production reduces the carbon footprint of particular farms. Other hon. Members will no doubt expand on whether that is a compelling argument.

I am not trying to justify or promote large-scale dairy production; I am simply trying to set out what my milk-producing constituents see as an essential consequence of the supermarket grip on the industry, and saying that they regard themselves as being much more likely to be able to invest decent sums in modern technology—we have heard about anaerobic digesters—under such conditions than they would be able to under any other system.

[Roger Williams]

My hon. Friend is generating an interesting point of view, which is that we need a range of dairy farms, from small and medium-sized ones to larger ones. The hon. and learned Member for Sleaford and North Hykeham (Stephen Phillips) said that there is a welfare code for dairy animals. Perhaps animals kept in larger units might need a different approach under the welfare code, because they will be kept in different circumstances.

[Simon Hart]

I agree. There is no greater expert on this subject than my hon. Friend.

I want to return to welfare concerns. The hon. Member for Stoke-on-Trent South (Robert Flello) made an interesting intervention on whether dairy production would be encouraged to move from its traditional countryside location to brownfield sites. Although there is a danger of that happening, I am not as convinced of it as he is. There is more to dairy farming than milking cows; there is young stock, dry cows and sick and lame animals that cannot be housed indoors. There will always be a need for animals in green fields. I do not think that we want to assume that milking is the only part of the process and that dairy farms can be located anywhere in the UK. It is not quite as simple as that.

When we discuss animal welfare in this context, there is a gulf of difference between reality and perception. My hon. and learned Friend mentioned legitimate concerns. I am always wary of legitimate concerns unless they can be backed up by evidence. The Department is assessing the welfare implications of indoor cattle. We Members of Parliament, particularly those representing agricultural areas, would be well advised to be a little bit cautious about talking about legitimate concerns until we know that there are legitimate concerns to be cautious about.

It is important to remember, in considering the scale of milk production, that thin, lame or ill cattle can be segregated in bigger herds, whereas in normal circumstances, in small-scale production, they can be prone to bullying by other animals in the herd. Being able to do such things on a larger scale, there is an argument, which I accept is unproven, that says that welfare standards can be improved. In other words, big is not necessarily bad. I suspect that we are all aware of small dairy producers—the sort that we are trying to champion—whose welfare standards are not as good as larger, slightly more industrial units, to use an unattractive term.

We have to be cautious about assuming things and being led by the nose—I am not suggesting for one moment that hon. Members are—down the road that says that big is bad and that the only kind of high-welfare milk production is undertaken by small producers. We know that that is not so. We need evidence to hand before we make judgments in that regard.

I welcome this debate, which has been waiting to be heard and which has huge consequences for the rural economy. If the Government get this wrong—I am not suggesting that they might—there will be massive social and environmental consequences and it will be hard to be put things back together.

Hon. Members have mentioned economic circumstances, but tracing this issue to its source it comes back to a simple question. How do we deal with the stranglehold of the supermarkets over our dairy industry? It is not the fault of farmers, the planning system or the Government; it is the fault of supermarkets, which are putting short-term gain at the top of their agenda, at the risk of putting the UK dairy industry either into terminal freefall or being exported.

We need to impress on the supermarkets the importance of this matter. A demonstration by Welsh farmers outside Asda in Chepstow tomorrow will express this view. I said that I would not name a supermarket, but now I have. It is a sad day when any section of the agricultural community is subject to such pressure, because the long-term downstream consequences for the rural community as a whole will be devastating unless we get this right.