The Future of Pubs

Simon Hart Excerpts

Thursday 9th December 2010 Westminster Hall

[Greg Mulholland]

My hon. Friend raises an important point. I was coming to that, but I will cover it now. I have already raised with the Planning Minister some companies’ continued use of restrictive covenants, in which the company says, with no thought to the community’s rights, that a pub must never be allowed to be a pub again. That is a scandal. The previous Government said that they would outlaw that practice, which was a hugely welcome step. I am disappointed that the right hon. Member for Wentworth and Dearne (John Healey) is no longer here, because I worked closely with him and I commend him on his work to support pubs. I ask the Minister to give us the good news for which we have all been waiting—CAMRA, in particular, has campaigned for this for many years—and to say that he will outlaw this totally anti-free market and anti-community practice once and for all.

Let me return to planning. I hope that I can address the concerns of the hon. Member for Burton (Andrew Griffiths)—Burton is, of course, one of the most famous centres, if not the most famous centre, for brewing in the country. The save the pub group says that we need to include two things in the planning process for community pubs. First, we need a genuine period of community consultation, which some councils have and some do not. Secondly, there needs to be a viability test. If a small business is viable, it should have the opportunity to continue as a small business, and should not simply be closed because someone can make a large killing by closing it, as my hon. Friend the Member for Staffordshire Moorlands said.

[Simon Hart (Carmarthen West and South Pembrokeshire) (Con)]

Does my hon. Friend accept that in some communities it is not only the pub that performs an important social function, and that there are examples of viable shops and filling stations that have also been sold by people who want to make a quick buck? How does he recommend that the Government should overcome that problem, with planning changes related simply to pubs? Would the changes not have to extend to other community functions that might, to some people, be just as important?

[Greg Mulholland]

The good news for my hon. Friend and, indeed, the Minister is that I have exactly the answer to that very point. It is not my original idea. Being a politician, I may sometimes take the credit for things, but I will not on this occasion. A Bill has been proposed by CAMRA, and is, I am delighted to say, being promoted by my hon. Friend the Member for Selby and Ainsty (Nigel Adams). The Protection of Local Services (Planning) Bill will have its Second Reading in the new year. The save the pub group officially backs it. The Bill would do precisely what my hon. Friend the Member for Carmarthen West and South Pembrokeshire (Simon Hart) has described; it would give councils the power to extend planning permission to local services that they designated. It would cover certain particularly important shops, post offices, pubs and perhaps petrol stations—the things that a community would identify for itself as important. Perhaps I may reassure my hon. Friend the Member for Suffolk Coastal (Dr Coffey), who is passionate about pubs and beer, about this—I enjoyed a glass or two with her at the Great British beer festival earlier this year. We should support the Bill; it would not do what she fears. It would simply give councils the power to adopt those practices if they wanted to, and to extend the planning permission in question. The provisions would be flexible and decentralising, but would not impose anything.

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[Andrew Griffiths]

My hon. Friend and Geoff from The Goat make a point of which we must all be aware. Not only do pubs suffer as a result of the price differential, they have to deal with the consequences. Although Tesco might sell a bottle of Lambrini for £1.90 for the young ladies of Dudley, Burton, or wherever, to drink before they go out, pubs have to deal with the supervision that involves not only the doorkeeper on the door, but those inside who must ensure that they do not serve alcohol to people who are already drunk. Over many years, we have seen the full cost of regulation being borne by the publican, but the supermarkets that have led to much of the unsupervised drinking do not have to deal with any of the consequences.

[Simon Hart]

Does my hon. Friend acknowledge that some supermarkets, including Asda, have changed their policy and introduced minimum pricing and limits? That indicates some positive moves in the right direction.

[Andrew Griffiths]

I thank my hon. Friend for raising that issue. That is true. I have met Asda and Tesco and some of the other supermarkets. It is important to realise, however, that the devil is in the detail. When we talk about below-cost selling, we need a proper definition of what that means. Asda advocates a below-cost selling method of duty plus VAT. That would be the equivalent of a bottle of wine being sold for £1.90 or a can of lager for 42p. I do not know about my hon. Friend, but I think that that is too cheap. If someone can tell me where I can buy a bottle of wine for £1.90, I might be interested to go and sample some of those wares—responsibly, of course.

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[Simon Hart (Carmarthen West and South Pembrokeshire) (Con)]

Given the time and the nature of the debate, I shall restrict my comments to championing proudly the small rural pub. In the old days, rural communities had the post office, the bank, the shop, the garage and the pub. Then, the community had just a few of them, and then even fewer, and now, if we are lucky, it might have only a pub. We are losing pubs at a rate of 40 or 50 a month, as we have heard. That is more than a shame or a mild inconvenience to the communities who depend on them—in many cases, for most of their lives. We can only remove the beating heart from a community once, and yet over the past few years we seem to have done it time and again, and we are then surprised when that community withers and dies.

Hon. Members have made passionate speeches about their areas, and each constituency will have its list of fantastic pubs and institutions. I will be no different, because I want to highlight precisely what this issue means to me. There is a little place in Carmarthen West and South Pembrokeshire called Cresswell Quay with a pub called the Cresselly Arms, run by a great and old friend of mine. In that pub we used to gossip, talk, commiserate, celebrate and do almost everything other than drink and smoke—those were the least of the services the pub provided. Without a shadow of a doubt, it was the one place to which everybody turned at any time of year, for various reasons.

My hon. Friend the Member for Staffordshire Moorlands (Karen Bradley) mentioned the value of the landlord and, indeed, the landlady, and I cannot overemphasise the importance of that appointment. They were more than people who pulled pints and dished out the odd bag of crisps; they were our friends, advocates and advisers. They told us when we were doing things well or badly, if our neighbours were ill, or if the dynamics of the village were changing. They gave us advance warning of things that were important to our communities.

[Karen Bradley]

I thank my hon. Friend for giving way. He is powerfully making the point, which perhaps has not been made so far, that there is a human cost of pubs closing. Those pub landlords and landladies have put their all into their pubs. They have, perhaps, put their life savings into the pub, and if that pub fails, they lose their home and their savings—they lose everything. We have to remember that human element and cost when we see pubs close.

[Simon Hart]

My hon. Friend reflects my view. The example I cited—and I cited it because I know that everyone has an equivalent example—completely epitomises everything that a local pub stands for. My landlord—my friend, Mr Cole—has probably carried more coffins than the local undertaker. He is a pillar of the community. He is the pioneer of the big society. He started talking about the big society while we were still babes in arms. Somehow, we have managed to get ourselves into a position where all of that is at risk. We have allowed these institutions to be strangled by red tape and regulation. We have allowed them to be strangled by increased alcohol duty and by layer upon layer of increased planning restrictions, which constrict the ability of businesses to grow.

I make a special plea to the Minister: will he spare a thought for those institutions that have to operate in national parks? I have made a few speeches recently that may lead to me being accused of being anti-national park. I am not, but I hope that national parks across the UK see it as their duty to enable good local community institutions and businesses to grow. Their job, in my humble opinion, is not to stop growth but to enable it in a way that is sympathetic to the park.

[Andrew Griffiths]

My hon. Friend makes a very good point. I can give him the example of a hard-working pub in Dartmoor with a small derelict barn, which the landlord wanted to convert to offer more food facilities. The planning application was turned down. An application to knock the barn down was made, and that, too, was refused. The planning regulations are preventing that business from being successful.

[Simon Hart]

I thank my hon. Friend for his intervention. I am afraid that his story is just another in a long line of examples of bureaucracy strangling rural communities. We somehow have to reset the default position that certain planning authorities seem to have, which is: “Whatever it is, the answer is no.” Rural communities are about people. Of course they are also about landscape and buildings, but the landscape and buildings are worth nothing unless there is a rural community to inhabit, embrace and love them.

I will keep my comments brief and conclude with four questions, which may verge on statements. When proposals come along, perhaps through the localism Bill, will the Minister please, please ensure that there is just a little paragraph somewhere saying, “Rural-proof”. If a measure has a downstream implication that may disproportionately affect rural communities, please bear that in mind. The previous Government’s introduction of the concept of rural-proofing was worth while; the only problem was that they did not apply it. It was a good idea that was not applied. The Rural Advocate was a good appointment, but the position was not properly used. The principle behind it is that no matter which Department is passing legislation or why, it should always check how it applies to rural communities down the line. Does the legislation have a disproportionate effect on them? If so, how can we minimise the damage from that disproportionate effect?

I completely embrace the suggested inclusion in the localism Bill of measures to empower local communities to pick up and run with failing pubs. I am tempted to mention a compelling example of that in Penrith and The Border, but I will not because I have a feeling that someone else might. We must stop the inequality between tenants and freeholders—the beer tie has been mentioned. We must overhaul the licensing system and temporary event notices, which were mentioned by my hon. Friend the Member for Brecon and Radnorshire (Roger Williams), and we must reform the planning system to enable co-location of other services that local communities need and that landlords and their families might wish to introduce.

I should give a big thumbs-up—we should probably say “bottoms up”—to two pubs. The Jolly Farmer in Reigate was able to overcome all obstacles to create a food emporium, which is available to the community as long as the pub is open. It competes with supermarkets on opening hours, and is doing fantastically well. It has tremendous local support and has focused a little attention on the supermarket competition in the area. The Plough in Wigglesworth, Skipton, confronted the problem of a closed post office by converting its old taproom into one, thus enhancing the role of the pub in that area.

Many hon. Members have made important speeches in this important debate about the value and future of the local pub. That is why I want to restrict my speech to just the far-distant corners of Britain, where the pub is more than just a convenient place to go for a pint, and where its closure is a great deal more than a minor inconvenience.