Air Transport (Northern Ireland)

Debate between Simon Burns and Laurence Robertson

Thursday 27th June 2013 Westminster Hall

[Mr Robertson]

I thank the hon. Lady for her helpful intervention. I am sure that the Minister travels to Northern Ireland regularly, but it sounds like an invitation for him to do so in a different way.

When the Minister gets there, he will see that the rail links in Northern Ireland are not what we might want either, particularly between City of Derry airport and Belfast. I will come to that issue in a minute. It is a long and sometimes difficult journey. Northern Ireland Members sometimes have to leave Parliament early in the day—not in the morning, of course, but not too late in the afternoon—if they want to get back that evening, which may explain why they are sometimes unable to take part in debates such as this.

The background is that we have three airports in Northern Ireland: Belfast International, sometimes known as Aldergrove; Belfast City, nowadays named George Best Belfast City airport after the great footballer; and, of course, City of Derry airport. Belfast International airport has about 4 million passengers a year, Belfast City airport 2.4 million and City of Derry 400,000. When we compare that with Dublin, which has 90 million passengers a year, we see a big difference between the two, but Belfast International airport is busy and fulfils a completely different role from Belfast City airport. Both are important. City of Derry airport could probably be used more, especially this year, when Londonderry is the city of culture.

In terms of connectivity, it is extremely important that we retain capacity in the south-east of England, because many people fly from Belfast to London and then on to other cities in the world. There is some concern about the speed with which we are moving in that direction. The Committee expressed frustration about how long it is taking for the Government to decide whether we are to have, for example, a further runway at Heathrow, Boris island or something else. It is of some concern to the Committee that the Government seem to have ruled out a third runway at Heathrow before commissioning the Davies report.

[The Minister of State, Department for Transport (Mr Simon Burns)]

If it is helpful to my hon. Friend, the Government’s policy, in the manifestos of both the Conservative party and the Liberal Democrats, is that there will be no third runway at Heathrow during the lifetime of this Parliament. For the way forward beyond 2015, we have set up the Davies review, an independent commission, to consider what we should do to move forward on capacity in the south-east of England.

[Mr Robertson]

That is extremely helpful, given that we have less than two years to go in this Parliament before the third runway is a possibility. I cannot speak for the Committee on that—we did not express a view whether there should be a third runway at Heathrow—but we did say that we are concerned about how long it is taking. The Government’s response to our report said, reasonably, that they do not want to rush matters; they want to consider the issue in depth and detail, and to get it right. I fully understand that, but we feel that we are losing out to Dublin, Paris and Schiphol due to the delay.

It is important to Northern Ireland that we secure the routes from Belfast to London airports. A while ago, British Airways—or the International Airlines Group, to be more correct—took over BMI, and there was some concern about whether the route would be discontinued. We interviewed Willie Walsh of International Airlines Group, who was helpful to the Committee and stressed the importance of that route to British Airways. We are concerned that the long-haul routes appear to be more profitable for some airline companies. He said that BA was not in a position, necessarily, to buy an awful lot more planes that could fly long-haul, so the route from Belfast was valuable to it. That is a slightly negative way of getting to the position that we wanted to get to, and we must stress the particular importance to the people in Northern Ireland, and to its economy, of the routes from Belfast to London.

Recently, we had a bit of a scare when Flybe announced that it was ending flights from Belfast City airport to Gatwick, although it ended a number of flights to Gatwick, not just from Belfast. The good news is that EasyJet has taken over and assures us that that route is important for it. All these things are worrying and are a problem for people in Northern Ireland, because air transportation is so important to them.

Linked to the issues I have mentioned are the slots, particularly at Heathrow, which is under such enormous pressure. We want to move the situation on as quickly as we can. We discussed the possibility of ring-fencing certain slots, particularly at Heathrow, but as the Government correctly responded, it is difficult to do that under EU law and tends to distort competition and the free market. As an avowed free-marketeer, I have some difficulty with that. The slots are probably best secured by creating extra capacity in the south-east, and we are in a vicious circle in that respect.

I now return to tax: air passenger duty. A while ago it became obvious to the Committee that Continental Airlines, now operating under United Airlines—the only company flying from Belfast directly to Newark in the United States—was seriously considering ending its only flight, because of the high level of long-haul air passenger duty. We have since had discussions with that airline in the United States. It was a close-run thing. It was seriously considering ending that flight, because it did not feel that it could pass on the air passenger duty to the customers, owing to the proximity of Dublin. Four people travelling from Belfast to Newark would pay £260 in tax, whereas from Dublin I think the charge is €3 each, and there was talk of abolishing that. Because of the possibility of a short journey elsewhere, Belfast was in danger of losing out.

We did a quick report and put an awful lot of pressure on the Government to do something about this. To be fair to the Treasury, the Department for Transport and the Northern Ireland Office—I do not know exactly who took the decision; I suspect it was the Treasury—

[Mr Burns]

Treasury.

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[Mr Laurence Robertson]

Could I ask for clarification on something? We were told by the City of Derry airport that UK guidelines are that

“railway access to airport terminals can only be justified when passenger numbers reach 10 million per annum.”

Does the Minister know—perhaps he can write to me if he needs to find out—whether that is a devolved or a reserved matter?

[Mr Burns]

I hope that I can give some reassurance to my hon. Friend. That is a devolved matter, but what I will do, in the spirit of co-operation and friendliness, is write to him with the precise details to explain why it is and what the best way forward is for him and his Committee.

--- Later in debate ---

[Mr Burns]

I hear what the hon. Gentleman says, but I fundamentally disagree with him. The issues are extremely complex and difficult, and they have stumped successive previous Governments—we have been going around the houses for 30 or 40 years without a final conclusion. A timetable of just short of three years, to consider the recommendations for the short term and, hopefully, to find a proper and lasting solution for the long term, is the right time scale. With that, there can be no accusations that it is a botched job, or that it has been rushed because of an artificial deadline, and we will be able to get the right and relevant recommendation, which will secure our moving forward to keep our hub status and everything that flows from that. We will, hopefully, then be able to get cross-party consensus.

I think that all the political parties have behaved responsibly—sometimes uncharacteristically so, where British politics is concerned—in reaching consensus on high-speed rail, and when the Davies commission has reported, ideally we will be able to reach consensus on its recommendations. We will have to wait and see, but I think that the time scale is respectable and responsible, and provides the time for the work to be done without rushing it.

[Mr Laurence Robertson]

I hear what the Minister says, but the problem is that when the report comes out it will not be the end of the story. Everything then has to be negotiated, and then something has to be agreed, and built. So let us say that in 2015 a third runway at Heathrow is recommended. When does the Minister estimate it would be operational?

[Mr Burns]

I am not going to fall into the trap of signing up to, “Let’s say it’s the third runway at Heathrow airport”. The Davies commission is totally independent and I, as a Minister in the Department for Transport, will not in any shape or form be tempted into that, even as an example, because it could be misconstrued—as I said earlier, walls have ears—and I certainly do not want to compromise the commission’s independence.

Nevertheless, I get my hon. Friend’s point about how long any major infrastructure improvement project in this country, however much support it has in the political arena, takes to go from the idea, and the acceptance of the idea, to laying down the first bricks and opening the first door for the service, or whatever it is. That is another issue and, speaking from a purely personal point of view, I think it has to be considered, but I do think that the right way forward is for an expert organisation that is divorced from party politics to consider the issue and come up with a solution. I hope that one can then get swift consensus among the political parties—or the major ones—so that we can move forward.

From the past 24 hours, my hon. Friend will appreciate that notwithstanding the fact that most issues in the House of Commons have some opposition, having broad consensus that one is doing the right thing makes some of the parliamentary processes easier, and avoids one political party being against another in a kind of guerrilla warfare, trying to slow down and thwart what might be in the national interest. That is why the decision made by my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Transport to set up the Davies commission was the right one, and I look forward to the commission’s recommendations in the summer of 2015, so that we can seek to build political consensus and move forward. That is crucial, not only for Britain’s interests but for Northern Ireland’s as well.

This has been an important and interesting debate, and I welcome the fact that we have been able to discuss the valuable contributions made. As I said at the beginning, a number of the issues are devolved to Northern Ireland, and the Committee might well want to pursue them further with the Northern Ireland Executive.